Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Overuse of Illegal Procedure should result in the phase "...and then I jammed my block dice up his nostrils, head butted him on the nose and they blasted out of his ears"

It's to remind you to move the turn marker so that nobody gets extra turns and things don't get out of sync. Nothing more.

Andy Jones wrote Warhammer Quest and Man'o'War amongst other titles like Space Fleet. He has been head of licensing for at least two decades and was involved in the deals with EA/Mindscape for Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omen which under his eyes stayed well to the original and are still liked for that. Same with FFG.

His WD articles were always a good read. He is also the founder of Black Library and involved in their first products like the Inferno magazine which was a welcome and big step forward back then for those interested in getting a richer view of the games' fluff - not limited to what you see in the games also. The Inferno mags featured nice artwork and stort stories that would not have seen production or release in other form without it. I think he is an obvious choice for the job and hopefully can build another creative sub-division within GW.

The Chapterhouse case... Who from GW looked good then anyway...

Didn't he also used to run the Specialist Games website? Kept them on semi-life support for quite a while.

 Graphite wrote:
Didn't he also used to run the Specialist Games website? Kept them on semi-life support for quite a while.

No, that was Andy Hall.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Atia's blog

So these must be different to the jobs on the GW site with similar but slightly different names? Because the closing date isn't until the 29th of November....

Probably it's for these jobs. Some companies will put a job offer up, even if they already knows who will get the job. Usually, they do this because they have the obligation to do so in their collective agreement, or their hiring policy.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Didn't he also used to run the Specialist Games website? Kept them on semi-life support for quite a while.

No, that was Andy Hall.

Ah. I was confused. Which is fairly common.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Probably it's for these jobs. Some companies will put a job offer up, even if they already knows who will get the job. Usually, they do this because they have the obligation to do so in their collective agreement, or their hiring policy.

Surely they shouldn't announce who has the job while the applications are still open?

Yeah, but since their is no date on the letter, i think it probably wasnt meant to go public yet.igjt be wrong though

REMINDER: This thread is for the discussion of the overall topic of the return, more or less, of Specialist Games.

It is not the place to discuss various rules minutiae you may or may not like from past editions of games that may or may not be returning.

*throws application out the window*

 Graphite wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Didn't he also used to run the Specialist Games website? Kept them on semi-life support for quite a while.

No, that was Andy Hall.

Ah. I was confused. Which is fairly common.

I didn't know that from memory . As luck would have it today I'm sorting out all of my books and a quick peek in my issues of Fanatic confirmed it.

I wonder if we'll ever see the vision described in the first paragraph of the Gorkamorka Designers' Notes?

I loved Gorkamorka.

It was a bit lacking as a game now I look back, but as a package, the writing, presentation and everything was great.

There was a column in one WD from Andy Chambers around the time Gorkamorka came out that had a similar statement to that first paragraph but also mentioned the idea of a skirmish game set on an Eldar Craftworld. I'll see if I can find the specific issue tonight.

I have no problem believing that Specialist Games don't make much profit, but the value of an entry level GW game shouldn't be underestimated... the problem is that you don't want people to play Necromunda and keep playing Necromunda, you want to play it for a while and then move on to 40k/AoS. If they don't, it is indeed cannibalizing sales. That's Another argument for boxed games with expansion boxes, as opposed to a complete range where you can just keep buying and playing with your small collection of models.

As 40k is going to larger and larger scale battles I think there is a solid niche for the return of skirmish games. While simply a board game, I like the fact the the new BaC game is a HQ and a handful of squads, with the dread being the big nasty. It’s not the HH armor that’s old about the game, it’s the scale of battles that got me into 40k

My one problem with necromunda/gorkamorka/mordenheim was the campaign nature. They lack the ability for pick up games. While not a deal breaker, it does marginalize some types of gamers, including myself. While this is great for those with solid, regular groups, it doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I might make it up to the store once or twice a month to play. That said, back when I was young and free, I had a blast with map based campaign games with continuity in WHFB.

 Nevelon wrote:
As 40k is going to larger and larger scale battles I think there is a solid niche for the return of skirmish games. While simply a board game, I like the fact the the new BaC game is a HQ and a handful of squads, with the dread being the big nasty. It’s not the HH armor that’s old about the game, it’s the scale of battles that got me into 40k

My one problem with necromunda/gorkamorka/mordenheim was the campaign nature. They lack the ability for pick up games. While not a deal breaker, it does marginalize some types of gamers, including myself. While this is great for those with solid, regular groups, it doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I might make it up to the store once or twice a month to play. That said, back when I was young and free, I had a blast with map based campaign games with continuity in WHFB.

For Mordheim, there was the option for a X crown game, X being the agreed spending limit. For example, in a 2000 crown game, both sides would pick a warband, plus weapons and armour, up to the value of 2000 crowns. Experience wasn't a problem, as both sides started with 0 experience and relied on basic stats for whatever race they picked.

It was a bit fiddly writing out a warband in a shop/club setting, but the pick up option was there for Mordheim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:
I have no problem believing that Specialist Games don't make much profit, but the value of an entry level GW game shouldn't be underestimated... the problem is that you don't want people to play Necromunda and keep playing Necromunda, you want to play it for a while and then move on to 40k/AoS. If they don't, it is indeed cannibalizing sales. That's Another argument for boxed games with expansion boxes, as opposed to a complete range where you can just keep buying and playing with your small collection of models.

It's not just the profit margin, but the speed in which you can get up and running, as well.

Let's use the Mordheim example again.

You've got 2 warbands: 10 humans and 10 undead minions, for 20 models in total. And they're snapfit, so the assembly time is quick. You've played a few games with unpainted models (because you're a kid who got Mordheim for Christmas for example) but now you're ready to move on to the next level.

20 models could be painted and ready in a month or less, even shorter if you pick one warband over another.

Compare that to WFB. Yes, technically, you can play a game with any number of models, but realistically, 1000 points was the lowest acceptable level for getting a game at clubs.

How many models in your average 1000 point fantasy army? Quite a few if you were Empire/Orcs/Undead etc etc

Compare that to the kid with Mordheim who now has 10 painted models in his warband and can play other warbands at a club/shop.

That's why I think these specialist games could eat into the main games.

You could argue that those types of games are already eating into their sales though, if you look outside the GW bubble. If someone wants to try a new game, and it's a choice between painting 50 GW models or 7 malifaux models, or 10 infinity models, and they don't fancy a big project, that money isn't going to GW. If a mordheim warband or necromunda gang is on offer, then GW may get that money that was otherwise going elsewhere.

While it would be naive to think they just want to offer a new gaming experience, I like to think that it factors in. Gateway products have more power than just bumping the margin.
WHFB Skirmish had a load of fun little scenarios that could be played simply from scrapping together a few models you don't care about and spending a bit of time on terrain. Usually, these are really fun and quirky. Something I've not found GW's flagship games to be for geez.. a decade? Maybe more?
For potential new players entering a crowded field that counts for a lot more than a few miniatures.

Over the years GW has seemed to want to try and emulate this. We got Kill Team, 40k in a Flash, the aforementioned Skirmish, WD scenarios,Path to Glory (or whatever that Chaos thing was), Escalation Leagues, etc. I remember when my old gaming club back in VA started up an escalation league. The smallest game was 500 pts I believe and you were able to increase your forces as the campaign proceeded. I saw a LOT of new faces during that. By the end, most of them had shiny new 1000+ point armies.

This, in my mind, hearkens back to the older days with a more classic GW approach (what it used to mean, not what we associate it with now). The GW that wrote the golden rule, ran Gamedays, had weird one-off models that didn't really bump any sort of profit margins, and didn't mind including instructions on how to make your own Baneblade. It's premature and again.. naive to believe we're there already, but the journey back to that place has to start somewhere.

 Eggs wrote:
You could argue that those types of games are already eating into their sales though, if you look outside the GW bubble. If someone wants to try a new game, and it's a choice between painting 50 GW models or 7 malifaux models, or 10 infinity models, and they don't fancy a big project, that money isn't going to GW. If a mordheim warband or necromunda gang is on offer, then GW may get that money that was otherwise going elsewhere.

Very true, but at least with games like Malifaux/infinity etc there's always the comfort that those ranges will keep going with new models or expansions etc etc

With GW's specialist games, will they ditch them again? Or make them limited a la Space Hulk? Big question.

Is it just me or was there a chariot game?? I think I remember it being previewed at a games day. and it was in a similar world to BB.

I always hoped that would appear but it never did

 Eggs wrote:
You could argue that those types of games are already eating into their sales though, if you look outside the GW bubble. If someone wants to try a new game, and it's a choice between painting 50 GW models or 7 malifaux models, or 10 infinity models, and they don't fancy a big project, that money isn't going to GW. If a mordheim warband or necromunda gang is on offer, then GW may get that money that was otherwise going elsewhere.

Yes, I think that's what GW is finally realizing. And the AoS release also pointed to them understanding that WFB had gotten so bloated it had created a barrier to entry (although they still don't seem to have gotten the message on prices). These SGs offer an entry level option and keep players in the GW games' universes -- otherwise they're gone to Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine, etc.

 MLaw wrote:
While it would be naive to think they just want to offer a new gaming experience, I like to think that it factors in. Gateway products have more power than just bumping the margin.
WHFB Skirmish had a load of fun little scenarios that could be played simply from scrapping together a few models you don't care about and spending a bit of time on terrain. Usually, these are really fun and quirky. Something I've not found GW's flagship games to be for geez.. a decade? Maybe more?
For potential new players entering a crowded field that counts for a lot more than a few miniatures.

Over the years GW has seemed to want to try and emulate this. We got Kill Team, 40k in a Flash, the aforementioned Skirmish, WD scenarios,Path to Glory (or whatever that Chaos thing was), Escalation Leagues, etc. I remember when my old gaming club back in VA started up an escalation league. The smallest game was 500 pts I believe and you were able to increase your forces as the campaign proceeded. I saw a LOT of new faces during that. By the end, most of them had shiny new 1000+ point armies.

This, in my mind, hearkens back to the older days with a more classic GW approach (what it used to mean, not what we associate it with now). The GW that wrote the golden rule, ran Gamedays, had weird one-off models that didn't really bump any sort of profit margins, and didn't mind including instructions on how to make your own Baneblade. It's premature and again.. naive to believe we're there already, but the journey back to that place has to start somewhere.

I've always believed that 10 models and a general/leader should be the bare minimum that anybody should need for most mini-wargames. Cheap to buy, quick to paint, quick to get started. That should be the mantra.

 Eggs wrote:
You could argue that those types of games are already eating into their sales though, if you look outside the GW bubble. If someone wants to try a new game, and it's a choice between painting 50 GW models or 7 malifaux models, or 10 infinity models, and they don't fancy a big project, that money isn't going to GW. If a mordheim warband or necromunda gang is on offer, then GW may get that money that was otherwise going elsewhere.

The guy who wants a 7-10 model game will never play a GW game though. I don't think GW has ever produced a 7-model boardgame, and I doubt it ever will. The assassins game was probably the closest they ever came to that.

However, I don't think that board games really eat into 40k sales that much. The people who really enjoy them aren't looking for a tabletop wargame anyways, at that particular time of purchase. I mean, there are gonna be people who want to play both, but when they're shopping for a boardgame, they're not saying, "Do I buy a box of Tyranids or do I buy Space Hulk?"

As to boardgame lifespan, I think there are a small number of people who play a small number of boardgames *and nothing else*, but I don't think this is the median player/hobbyist. My observation is that most people who buy boardgames aren't like that.

And in any case people like new stuff

 Talys wrote:
The guy who wants a 7-10 model game will never play a GW game though. I don't think GW has ever produced a 7-model boardgame, and I doubt it ever will. The assassins game was probably the closest they ever came to that.

Mordheim could be played with close to that number of models.

 Talys wrote:

 Eggs wrote:
You could argue that those types of games are already eating into their sales though, if you look outside the GW bubble. If someone wants to try a new game, and it's a choice between painting 50 GW models or 7 malifaux models, or 10 infinity models, and they don't fancy a big project, that money isn't going to GW. If a mordheim warband or necromunda gang is on offer, then GW may get that money that was otherwise going elsewhere.

The guy who wants a 7-10 model game will never play a GW game though. I don't think GW has ever produced a 7-model boardgame, and I doubt it ever will. The assassins game was probably the closest they ever came to that.

However, I don't think that board games really eat into 40k sales that much. The people who really enjoy them aren't looking for a tabletop wargame anyways, at that particular time of purchase. I mean, there are gonna be people who want to play both, but when they're shopping for a boardgame, they're not saying, "Do I buy a box of Tyranids or do I buy Space Hulk?"

As to boardgame lifespan, I think there are a small number of people who play a small number of boardgames *and nothing else*, but I don't think this is the median player/hobbyist. My observation is that most people who buy boardgames aren't like that.

And in any case people like new stuff

I dunno about boardgame but 7ish models was roughly the size of our Mordheim warbands starting out. Same with Necromunda. I'm fairly certain Aeronautica Imperialis required 10 or less aircraft for a minimal force. I thought Space Crusade and Space Hulk only had about 10 models per side as well. Maybe I'm misremembering.

EDIT: Actually.. just read my last post.. most of the stuff I mentioned were games with about 10ish models. GW has put out a TON of sources for ~10 model games.

I dunno talys, I've played most of gw's games over the years, and I like 7-10 model games. I have my fb and 40K armies (two for each system.) I'm unlikely ever to start another GW project unless smaller games come out, purely because life is too short! I regularly pick up new factions for other games though, because I like variety. I can have an infinity faction built and painted in a weekend.

Edit: but I did order that assassin thing yesterday, because that's a project I CAN fit into my life (two jobs, kids, yada yada)
Point being, I'm not about to spend money on a new army for any of their systems. I'll happily drop a wedge on the occasional boxed game though.

Perhaps the thinking is that their retail presence isn't being used properly. New SG players in store surrounded by other games stand a much higher chance of being converted to their other games than those not in the shop regularly.

It's a theory at least!

The Possessed starting warband box set was 7 models. Witch Hunters was 8. Most Necro gangs came 8 in a box. If you played Spyrers, you could get away with 4 or 5. Skirmish campaign games are a great way to provide variety, which seemed to be the direction GW was heading based on those Gorkamorka designer's notes. Then some genius decided everybody wanted to paint 80-100 models, and if you don't then we don't want your business. Brilliant.