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This is shocking. Not the fact that it happened (it's horrible, but not shocking that terror attacks happen) but the scale. Especially after all the recent media coverage about refugees. I hope those does not spin out of control with all this rhetoric.

 Orlanth wrote:
There has been a lot of intelligence activity in the UK reported in the press recently. A lot of arrests and some major plots foiled.

The Germans have also reported success foiling plots.

Why have the French been caught flat footed, again?

Border control can only be part of he answer, most terrorist threats are home grown. Besides the UK has rap border control.

Firstly France has a high percentage of North African immigrants, where as in the UK much of our Muslim immigrants are from the Indian sub continent (due to colonial stuff). North Africa is currently the area with a lot of conflict.

Secondly France has major issues with ghettoisation of immigrant communities, partly due to political actions and partly due to the very stron image of what is to be French in the mind of many French people, in a way that just does not exist in the UK and Germany. This causes separation, division and poverty. These are all drivers to radicalisation.

Finally, the tabloid newspapers might want to tell you how poor our boarder control is, but it's simply not true. To get in to most countries of Europe you just need to walk through a field or a forest. We have the sea and our boarder controls are pritty strong. No controls are ever perfect, but they are some of the best. But as you say, these are probably home grown terrorists, not people from overseas, but the same is true for the control of weapons coming in to the country needed to carry out these attacks, which is why we seen bomb plots in the UK, which are much harder to hide, as they require complex skills, and chemicals that may not be hard to buy, but are easy to track.

On top of that it is simply a matter of luck. You can foil a hundred attacks but only one has to work. The work of security services and Interpol is not limited to one country, and will have been involved in all of these foiled plots.

Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

Breaking news, UK caught a suspect with a grenade at Gatwick airport. No news as yet who who, why or genuine threat or not.

BBC news and another source. Airport reopening I think

UK security, good job, good job.

Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?


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 LethalShade wrote:
Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.

It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LethalShade wrote:
Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.

It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.

Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.

This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.

Shocked by this. Not even sure what to say. I hope order is restored quickly and the perpetrators are brought to swift justice.

 LethalShade wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LethalShade wrote:
Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.

It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.

Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.

This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.

Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.

The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LethalShade wrote:
Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.

It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.

Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.

This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.

Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.

The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

Deliberate misleading ? Or they just didn't care anymore.

As for explosives, you can get pretty much anything in the suburbs as long as you have enough money.
+ I bet most of them were homemade.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LethalShade wrote:
Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.

It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.

Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.

This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.

Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.

The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

For the propaganda value of getting their names plastered all over the news? They want the attention, the notoriety, the 24/7 news headlines dissecting their lives and beliefs.

I imagine that they would have forewarned any of their associates who might be implicated so they could go to ground.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.

The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

Grenades are probably not easy to come by in France, no, which suggests plenty of planning went into this.

Were it me, I'd float 'em across the Med from Libya or something.

Seaward wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.

The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

Grenades are probably not easy to come by in France, no, which suggests plenty of planning went into this.

Were it me, I'd float 'em across the Med from Libya or something.

I've just been reading up on all the surplus AK47s/military stuff lying around from the end of the cold war/Yugoslav civil war.

There is a scary amount of stuff floating around Europe

So far over 180 are confirmed dead and fears are that there may be more attacks.
Sweet feth help those poor french and I hope that they stay safe tonight.

 master of ordinance wrote:
So far over 180 are confirmed dead and fears are that there may be more attacks.

Source ? The official numbers here are 128 confirmed dead and 250 wounded, whose 99 are in a critical state.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Sweet feth help those poor french and I hope that they stay safe tonight.

Thanks.


EDIT : And some are already blaming it on our social rights, making us "weak" compared to the terrorist threat. Sigh.

Well. I actually tried fighting them and that didn't work either. If anything it made the problem worse.

But I'll tell you this. They say the same things about us. We will never understand their way of life. We will never be able to coexist. We will never be able to find peace.

And you're both right. As long as we never try, we never will. I'm open to your suggestions too. What do you suggest? Kill "them" all? Because that makes you so much better than "they" are. So much more righteous. We could always invade the Middle East again. That worked out well. Iraq being so stable and all now.

What do you say we just nuke them then? Yeah! Glass parking lot the whole desert. Men, women, and children. Who cares as long as "they" are dead.

You suffer from the same problems our enemy does. The same crisis. The root of these issues. You believe in "them." You believe somehow a man born with a different flag over his head or a different book in his hand is inherently evil. That we can never find a way to make peace with them. And until both of you realize that that is simply ridiculous, until you both realize hatred is a decision. Violence is a choice. Until you both understand that, we will need silent, brutal warriors to fight wars that shouldn't be happening in the first place.

I'm not saying we surrender. Blow up whatever you want. But don't just give up on peace either, don't give up on your fellow humans, or these attacks really will never stop.

Said by a former USMC member.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where would these attackers get their hands on grenades? Left over weapons from the Yugoslav civil war?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LethalShade wrote:
Attacks officially claimed by ISIS in a long text written in French detailing how the attacks were carried.

I remain sceptical about that, to be honest. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS came credit for it.

It could be that these scumbags were 'inspired' by ISIS, rather than under their control.

Detailed text. In French. Details on equipment, weapons and the attack themselves were given. ISIS doesn't usually claim what it isn't responsible for.
Plus the guys were pretty competent and organized for "inspired" civilians.

This, and they found a Syrian passport on the remains of one of them.

Why would they carry a passport? Makes no sense.

The harder it is to identify you, the harder it is for the authorities to go after your friends/family/ associates.

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

No, it makes perfect sense if Islamic State managed to slip one or more of their fighters or other supporters into Europe through the current migrant/refugee crisis.

Islamic State's only goal is to exterminate every last one of us filthy, "unbelievers" and raise every trace of civilisation to ash. They want us to know it was them. They want us to know that their self-styled "holy soldiers" are coming to kill us.
Their leadership knows full well that Western leadership is too damn soft and will not lift a finger to retaliate in any even remotely meaningful way.

It definitely IS a very scary prospect in light of the current crisis in Europe, as intel groups & aid workers on the ground have found that roughly 20% of Syrian refugees are at best tolerant of Islamic State, and at worst, supportive of them. (because they hate Assad and by extention Russia more)

I bet this is only the beginning, as more and more of the millions migrating out of troubled religious conflict zones make it into Europe, and soon, Canada and the US.

President Hollande has declared this an act of war.

I think the chances of me getting another Iraq medal have just risen astronomically.

You are in the military ?

We were in war in January too, and even before. Everyone avoided the word, but evidences were here.

 LethalShade wrote:
You are in the military ?

We were in war in January too, and even before. Everyone avoided the word, but evidences were here.

We've been at war with violent Islam since forever.

 LethalShade wrote:
You are in the military ?

British Army. If France goes in I would imagine that the UK would as well. I am in a job that means that I would almost certainly be deploying if there is a ground presence.

There is a lot of resistance to the use of military force against ISIS but I suspect that recent events would allow the Government to push a vote allowing military action through.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:
You are in the military ?

British Army. If France goes in I would imagine that the UK would as well.

There is a lot of resistance to the use of military force against ISIS but I suspect that recent events would allow the Government to push a vote allowing military action through.

Some "experts" on TV strongly advocated a form of isolationism, by calling our soldiers abroad back to France to help us defend the country, saying that we don't have enough resources to bring war to ISIS.

How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.

Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.

I really don't know what the answer is.

 Pacific wrote:
How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.

Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.

I really don't know what the answer is.

Me neither, unfortunately. France will become a police state sooner or later, and I don't know how we can retaliate. Nuke the Middle East ? That would be the dumbest thing anyone has ever done.

There has to be action in return though.

Such acts cannot stand unanswered.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

You'd be surprised
Given the right connections, you can get everything from machineguns to rocket launchers. And those connections aren't hard to come by either. In fact, you can just buy grenades on the dark web. Very cheap too.
Given the fall of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and the wars in Libya and Syria (both countries had huge weapon stockpiles), Europe is completely full with all kinds of weaponry. Even the lowliest street gangs have AKs and grenades.



Also, I read on RT that Hollande had just sent France's aircraft carrier (hilarious RT taking great effort in stressing France's ONLY aircraft carrier ) to the Middle East.

 Pacific wrote:

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

By smashing ISIS on the ground, in reality that's the only way to really hurt them. The French armed forces, supported by the Iraqis, Kurds and others, would roll right over ISIS, and to be honest I think the deployment of French troops, probably in Iraq, is now a very strong possibility. It will be costly in blood and treasure but someone has to do it and the forces currently ranged against ISIS are clearly unable to make much headway.

ISIS will survive of course but they will be significantly weakened.

ISIS rose due to the absolutely cack handed way that the Iraq war was handled once official war fighting ceased, that cannot be allowed to happen again.

 Pacific wrote:
How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.

Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.

I really don't know what the answer is.

Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.

If nothing is done however they will do this again. They get off on this stuff, there twisted evil and fethed up excuses for human beings.

They will not stop this war, there is no cease fire, there is no ability to negotiate. There wild beasts.

Sadly the war was brought to the Wests doorstep. And its not going away.

Only thing one can do is
Prepare as best you can and be ready for the worst case possible attack.

 Knockagh wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.

Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.

I really don't know what the answer is.

Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.

As I recall, there was a Priest or someone along those lines who had a sign in a storefront type setup where he protested the violence by keeping a running tally of all on both sides who were killed.

 Knockagh wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
How do you declare a war against a concept, i.e. terrorism?

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

I would place a bet that these terrorists have come back from Syria or Iraq, their training for this attack and fanaticism nurtured in that cauldron of darkness and human suffering.

Unfortunately I think this is probably going to be the first of many such attacks on western targets, which will then engender a crack-down on civil liberties and even further polarisation of races/religions within Western Europe.

I really don't know what the answer is.

Sadly you are right. Terrorists hide amoungst the civilian population making it nearly impossible to attack without exposing yourself to accusations of racist attacks etc. I grew up and still live in Northern Ireland were we were faced daily with barbarism from the IRA some responded by attacking the community that supported them some by attacking the terrorists themselves and others peacefully protested. The sad reality is none of it worked. We all wanted to see the IRA destroyed for the evil they perpetrated but it never happened. Justice in the west is not designed for or brutal enough to cope with terrorism. You can call it soft or civilised but we can't cope with people with no morals and maintain our own. I have no answer either.

This is a completely different ball game. At least with the IRA, you knew their ultimate objective (united Ireland) and as history shows, you could sit down and talk to them, a la Good Friday agreement.

ISIS, on the other hand, revel in destruction for its own sake. Nihilism seems to be their only ethos. Difficult, if not impossible to compromise with that.


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 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

I really struggle to see what France (or anyone else for that matter) can do in terms of retaliation; soldiers, bombs against ISIS in Iraq or Syria?

By smashing ISIS on the ground, in reality that's the only way to really hurt them. The French armed forces, supported by the Iraqis, Kurds and others, would roll right over ISIS, and to be honest I think the deployment of French troops, probably in Iraq, is now a very strong possibility. It will be costly in blood and treasure but someone has to do it and the forces currently ranged against ISIS are clearly unable to make much headway.

ISIS will survive of course but they will be significantly weakened.

ISIS rose due to the absolutely cack handed way that the Iraq war was handled once official war fighting ceased, that cannot be allowed to happen again.

Like most people, I'm not entirely sure what to do to stop ISIS, but dropping bombs from 30,000 feet and bombing up some camels and sand dunes doesn't seem to be working. If anything, it makes things worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

As for the grenades, not easy to come by.

You'd be surprised
Given the right connections, you can get everything from machineguns to rocket launchers. And those connections aren't hard to come by either. In fact, you can just buy grenades on the dark web. Very cheap too.
Given the fall of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and the wars in Libya and Syria (both countries had huge weapon stockpiles), Europe is completely full with all kinds of weaponry. Even the lowliest street gangs have AKs and grenades.



Also, I read on RT that Hollande had just sent France's aircraft carrier (hilarious RT taking great effort in stressing France's ONLY aircraft carrier ) to the Middle East.

At least the French have got a working aircraft carrier. Here in the UK, ours is still getting built. Better hope the enemy has the courtesy to wait 5 years for us to build it!!