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No, he won't - because he knows that Chaos will destroy him, not give him freedom.

 Scorpionov wrote:
you gotta look at it from the perspective of the average joe if his life on random hive #2342 is so hopeless he will feel justified to fall to chaos to get a taste of freedom

Only because average joe on random hive #2342 is ignorant of what Chaos is, which is quite possibly an eternity of torment. With the Imperium, the torment ends with death.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, he won't - because he knows that Chaos will destroy him, not give him freedom.

that's the whole point he doesn't know that...til the very end

He does know that - Imperial Dogma is very clear on the fact that deviating from the Ecclesiarchy's path leads to destruction!

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
do whatever the heck they think they want, within reason.

Reason? There's no reason in Chaos, only all-out indulging in whatever strikes your fancy.

I say neither are evil.

Both are following the basest of instincts, survival.

Chaos (at least the gods) could be argued that they don't actually have a choice in the matter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
He does know that - Imperial Dogma is very clear on the fact that deviating from the Ecclesiarchy's path leads to destruction!

actually knowledge of chaos is kept secret for the sheer amount of damage it could do

 Scorpionov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
He does know that - Imperial Dogma is very clear on the fact that deviating from the Ecclesiarchy's path leads to destruction!

actually knowledge of chaos is kept secret for the sheer amount of damage it could do

No, it's not. Knowledge of "The Ruinous Powers" is fairly common - it's in scripture that Horus was an agent of them, after all.

What's secret is the details, such as the ability of daemons to manifest physically, the fact that there are distinct factions among Chaos, and so on.

The fact that Chaos exists, mutates people, and is the source of all human evil in the galaxy is the threat held over the heads of common people by the Ecclesiarchy to get them to behave.

The Imperium is a tyrannical and oppresive regime, that fanatically worships the rotten corpse of a flawed demigod killed as a result of his own incompetence.

Chaos is freedom in its most brutal, unmerciful and savage kind. It's a neccesary evil. In the end, imperials will understand.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
He does know that - Imperial Dogma is very clear on the fact that deviating from the Ecclesiarchy's path leads to destruction!

actually knowledge of chaos is kept secret for the sheer amount of damage it could do

No, it's not. Knowledge of "The Ruinous Powers" is fairly common - it's in scripture that Horus was an agent of them, after all.

What's secret is the details, such as the ability of daemons to manifest physically, the fact that there are distinct factions among Chaos, and so on.

The fact that Chaos exists, mutates people, and is the source of all human evil in the galaxy is the threat held over the heads of common people by the Ecclesiarchy to get them to behave.

im guessing you have a source for this?
Cause if this is true this the most pants on incompetent policy anyone can come up with whats to stop millions of would be arch heretics from researching the finer teachings of chaos for their own black ends which would cause whole plantes and sectors to be damned
Search up on the first war of Armageddon to see how the imperium deals with taint of chaos...its pretty brutal

 Scorpionov wrote:


im guessing you have a source for this?

The Black Library in general. The Tanith, ordinary Guardsmen, are all familiar with the signs of Chaos.

The fact Mutants are reviled as unclean beings, as shown most clearly in Malleus.

The attitudes and mutterings of the vast civilian cast of the Lords of Mars trilogy.

It's not stupid at all. Trying to pretend there's no such thing would be stupid - its impossible to hide.

It's not that easy to just "research the finer points of evil" anyway. There's no internet to search "hur hur, chaos cults in my area" on. Most people are illiterate, how are you meant to research Chaos when you can't even read?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:


im guessing you have a source for this?

The Black Library in general. The Tanith, ordinary Guardsmen, are all familiar with the signs of Chaos.

The fact Mutants are reviled as unclean beings, as shown most clearly in Malleus.

The attitudes and mutterings of the vast civilian cast of the Lords of Mars trilogy.

It's not stupid at all. Trying to pretend there's no such thing would be stupid - its impossible to hide.

It's not that easy to just "research the finer points of evil" anyway. There's no internet to search "hur hur, chaos cults in my area" on. Most people are illiterate, how are you meant to research Chaos when you can't even read?

If most people are illiterate (Which may not be true depends on the world) then they are easy to corrupt they could led astray from the emporers light by a new faith or charismatic leader claiming to revere the emporer in better fashion while slowly poisoning their minds to worship chaos these are how chaos cults starts

Yes, they are.

Why do you think there are so many missionaries and priests travelling the galaxy? Because the only reason that doesn't happen constantly is because there's already a highly charismatic preacher keeping them honest and faithful.

Chaos Cults happen all the time, that's why the Ecclesiarchy is so ready to whip up a mob and hand out the torches and pitchforks at a moment's notice.

but even those missionaries and priests don't know much about chaos if anything at all also they are just as corruptible as everyone else so if they were taught about chaos many would feel repulsed but there is also the one or two canidetes for corruption they could use their influence to get the masses to rise up and cause massive damage to a planet

Also the Brotherhood of Horned Darkness a chaos cult has infiltrated the Ecclesiarchy on more than one occasion

 Scorpionov wrote:
Cause if this is true this the most pants on incompetent policy anyone can come up with whats to stop millions of would be arch heretics from researching the finer teachings of chaos for their own black ends which would cause whole plantes and sectors to be damned

He did say specific details aren't common knowledge. Inquisitors are very rare, they can't be everywhere and find everything immediately. They must often rely on ordinary people reporting something out-of-place to their local priest or other official, who then sends the report higher up. The Chaos Gods are called "the Ruinous Powers", ordinary citizens know little more than that and during religious functions they are always told to keep away from such things and to report anything suspicious. People are told to watch for certain signs - mutation, praising others than the Emperor and approved saints, magic.

Another example of knowing something but not details: Everyone on a warp-capable ship is told that there are things out there that would want to eat them and if the warning klaxon sounds everyone regardless of rank must pick up a weapon and kill anything that doesn't look human. They might not know exactly what it is but they know they have to fight it.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:
Cause if this is true this the most pants on incompetent policy anyone can come up with whats to stop millions of would be arch heretics from researching the finer teachings of chaos for their own black ends which would cause whole plantes and sectors to be damned

He did say specific details aren't common knowledge. Inquisitors are very rare, they can't be everywhere and find everything immediately. They must often rely on ordinary people reporting something out-of-place to their local priest or other official, who then sends the report higher up. The Chaos Gods are called "the Ruinous Powers", ordinary citizens know little more than that and during religious functions they are always told to keep away from such things and to report anything suspicious. People are told to watch for certain signs - mutation, praising others than the Emperor and approved saints, magic.

Another example of knowing something but not details: Everyone on a warp-capable ship is told that there are things out there that would want to eat them and if the warning klaxon sounds everyone regardless of rank must pick up a weapon and kill anything that doesn't look human. They might not know exactly what it is but they know they have to fight it.

That would be far better policy for if the Ecclesiarchy preached about the dangers of chaos as in actually giving it a name instead of just branding as creatures that want to kill you and your family it would take just one muppet who didn't know what he/she was getting her/himself into to damn a planet or sector
This is why chaos is kept a secret from the average citizen the imperium is paranoid cannot trust the average citzen to have knowledge of chaos

Just... stop.

Go back and reread the fluff. You obviously don't actually get it.

ok so what you are saying no matter how low in life on any planet you are, you are free to have knowledge of all powerful, evil deities of unimaginable terror from which no harm could possibly come from having that knowledge

Your logic is making no sense

No, I'm saying that no matter what planet you're on, as long as it is subject to the Imperium, you know that there is, out there, a great, horrible, monstrous force that wants to kill your children, rape your husband and eat your cat, an that it wants YOU to help it.

You know that at any time, any of your friends, your neighbours, could fall victim to this evil force, and that the only way to protect yourself and your soul is to report an suspicions to the authorities.

You know that every day that this evil force does not affect you is a gift and blessing from the Emperor.

You know that this force is called The Ruinous Powers of Chaos.

That is what I am saying.

People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.

The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.

Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.

Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.

Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.

No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.

You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.

That sounds totally within reason to me....

Chaos are *Chaotic* Evil, Imperium are Chaotic Neutral, there is still a whole tier between them.

By technicality, the Imperium is Lawful Evil

 Scorpionov wrote:
ok so what you are saying no matter how low in life on any planet you are, you are free to have knowledge of all powerful, evil deities of unimaginable terror from which no harm could possibly come from having that knowledge

Your logic is making no sense

Along these lines did peasants not know of the devil etc? or did the church keep that a secret too? All religions need people to be aware of the boogymen otherwise they can't scare people into following as easily.

(but the BLAM-ing probably helps too.)

 War Kitten wrote:
You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.

I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.

The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.

Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.

Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.

I'm not sure what prolific fluff everyone else is reading, all the fluff I've ever read (codex, white dwarf, short stories, etc) has been clear Night Lords are chaos space marines, but online this seems not to be a common perspective.

Could you point me to the source where it is stated that Night Lords aren't chaos marines? I appreciate most of them look down on chaos's most fervent worshippers, but up until now I've taken the studio's word that a space marine doesn't need to be a devout follower of chaos to be considered a chaos space marine.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.

No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.

Not true in the slightest. The Chaos Gods are fully sentient beings, they know exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it. Tzeentch, for example, couldn't be the master planner he is if he "working on animalistic instinct." The Great game is the Chaos Gods trying to gain power over each other, with huge collateral damage in the form of the material universe to which they couldn't give half a gak if everything were thrown into the same chaos as the Warp; in fact, that would be all the better for them. That's pretty damn evil.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.

I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?

Again, no. The Chaos Gods don't provide these things, they just kind of represent them. They were originally formed from the emotions of mortals, so they were actually created because those things you listed already existed. Don't forget that the Eldar had a pleasure-seeking society for millennia before they birthed Slaanesh.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!

Now you're just getting ridiculous. Night Lords suffer from delusions of being renegades and not agents of Chaos, yet they're led by a Daemon Prince and their assault marines worship Chaos itself and turn into possessed Marines. Plus the lot of them suffer from chaotic taint and mutation, endemic to all those who end up an agent of the Chaos Gods. Chaos doesn't ask if you want to serve their will, you don't need to worship it. They just decide you're a pawn they want to move.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.

The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.

Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.

Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.

And now you're just trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.

No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.

No they aren't. The Chaos Gods are completely cognitive, sentient beings fully aware of their actions and the suffering they cause. FFS we see Tzeentch actually holding a conversation with this Court in the final Ahriman book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.

I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?

...

Stop watching the fething Alfa Legion videos, it's purely fanfiction. The Chaos Gods don't create positive emotions, they are the product of emotion. There was plenty of happiness and pleasure prior to the Fall, indeed there probably was more considering the Eldar weren't having their souls raped for eternity and their gods devoured by She Who Thirsts. The Chaos Gods don't cause gak besides suffering, they're a literal cancer upon reality formed from the nightmares of life.

 Scorpionov wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:


im guessing you have a source for this?

The Black Library in general. The Tanith, ordinary Guardsmen, are all familiar with the signs of Chaos.

The fact Mutants are reviled as unclean beings, as shown most clearly in Malleus.

The attitudes and mutterings of the vast civilian cast of the Lords of Mars trilogy.

It's not stupid at all. Trying to pretend there's no such thing would be stupid - its impossible to hide.

It's not that easy to just "research the finer points of evil" anyway. There's no internet to search "hur hur, chaos cults in my area" on. Most people are illiterate, how are you meant to research Chaos when you can't even read?

If most people are illiterate (Which may not be true depends on the world) then they are easy to corrupt they could led astray from the emporers light by a new faith or charismatic leader claiming to revere the emporer in better fashion while slowly poisoning their minds to worship chaos these are how chaos cults starts

Which happens... except when the Arbites, the Inquisition (specifically, the Ordo Hereticus), the Ecclesiarchy, or the Sisters of Battle happen to notice. All of these organizations are the vanguard against such things... but, make no mistake, such things as that do happen in the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy regularly launches Wars of Faith against other Imperial worlds when it is viewed that the teachings of the Imperial Cult on that world have strayed too far from the proper course.