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Furyou Miko wrote: Misplaced full stop, Dusara, delete it off the end of the link.
thanks, I fixed it. Also, the article is marked as containing lots of fanfiction, in it, how am I to believe anything that it contains if it has fanfic info sprinkled randomly throughout it?
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
There's not a single reference on that page, unless you count referencing other 1d4 articles
If you're using something as a source, you should at least quote or highlight which part of it and leave a functioning link. And make sure it actually cites sources. Plus linking a page like that is lazy. That'd be the equivalent of me arguing the IoM is objectively good and then leaving a link to its 1d4chan page.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
I don't have any references. I was pointing out that if there are references, you can work around the fanfic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the IOMis objectively good, if all morality is slave to the survival of humanity, thus allowing an "ends justify the means" mentality to be morally acceptable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/26 16:33:47
Fanfic or no, there are no references on that page, unless I'm missing something. Besides, it'd make more sense to use the lexicanum and quote the text directly, instead of asking others to work around the fanfic. I mean if you're making a point, you're the one that has the burden of proof, right?
Selym wrote: Also the IOMis objectively good, if all morality is slave to the survival of humanity, thus allowing an "ends justify the means" mentality to be morally acceptable.
If the IoM being objectively good requires the condition of morality to be subservient to a certain subjective mentality, then the IoM is not objectively good.
In my subjective point of view, the IoM is certainly not as evil as Chaos, whether Chaos has a choice in being evil or not. Though I think Quickjager got to the crux of the matter with this:
Quickjager wrote: You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
Chaos is like a cancer, consciously committing evil as a goal, knowing that any and all evil actions it commits will ultimately empower itself.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/26 18:06:20
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Fanfic or no, there are no references on that page, unless I'm missing something. Besides, it'd make more sense to use the lexicanum and quote the text directly, instead of asking others to work around the fanfic. I mean if you're making a point, you're the one that has the burden of proof, right?
Selym wrote: Also the IOMis objectively good, if all morality is slave to the survival of humanity, thus allowing an "ends justify the means" mentality to be morally acceptable.
If the IoM being objectively good requires the condition of morality to be subservient to a certain subjective mentality, then the IoM is not objectively good.
In my subjective point of view, the IoM is certainly not as evil as Chaos, whether Chaos has a choice in being evil or not. Though I think Quickjager got to the crux of the matter with this:
Quickjager wrote: You are confusing the Warp for Chaos, because of that I am afraid you are reading past what we are saying. The Warp is a reflection of the Materium, Chaos is not. Chaos is a byproduct of the emotions of sapient beings. Chaos was created and now has sentience. They wish to grow stronger and so force more emotions of their respective type to occur. They literally live off evil and commit it to further themselves.
Chaos is like a cancer, consciously committing evil as a goal, knowing that any and all evil actions it commits will ultimately empower itself.
That's fine if that's your interpretation of Chaos, but I cannot consider something evil if it cannot consciously make the decision to be good, or evil, Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
What you and others consider evil is simply the acts of evil that the sentient races emit into the warp, the warp in turn reflect it back out into realspace, they do so because that's all they know how to do, they have no choice, evil begets evil if you will, so no, Chaos is only as evil as the sentient races make them, therefore, they are not inherently evil, and chaos by its very definition commits acts of good, as it's chaotic.
cat_of_fur(r)y wrote: Imperium: fascist, autocratic, extremists
Chaos: kind of democratic (4 gods and peeps like eldar can make new ones.) Extremist, fascist
The Imperium is none of those things. It is composed of almost a million planets; each with its own government. YOu have utopic meritocracies (like Ultramar) and oppressive shitholes (like Krieg) alike.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
The fact that you attribute them with sentience gives them the power to have a morality, which in turn means that they can be classified as evil since at least a majority of their actions are evil. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot with that.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos is only as evil as the sentient races make them, therefore, they are not inherently evil
Contradicting yourself there, mate. If the other sentient races make them and the other sentient races make them evil, then by the very definition of inherent combined with the idea that the other sentient races make them, Chaos are evil.
Formosa wrote: ... Chaos by its very definition commits acts of good, as it's chaotic.
I think it's an appropriate assessment when I say that at least a majority of the actions of Chaos are evil. They might do some good here and there (I really don't know and can think of no specific examples) but as I've said a couple of times now, they mostly do evil.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
The fact that you attribute them with sentience gives them the power to have a morality, which in turn means that they can be classified as evil since at least a majority of their actions are evil. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot with that.
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos is only as evil as the sentient races make them, therefore, they are not inherently evil
Contradicting yourself there, mate. If the other sentient races make them and the other sentient races make them evil, then by the very definition of inherent combined with the idea that the other sentient races make them, Chaos are evil.
Formosa wrote: ... Chaos by its very definition commits acts of good, as it's chaotic.
I think it's an appropriate assessment when I say that at least a majority of the actions of Chaos are evil. They might do some good here and there (I really don't know and can think of no specific examples) but as I've said a couple of times now, they mostly do evil.
No contradictions, I explained their level of sentience in previous posts, I assume you haven't read them however so I'll explain again for clarity.
The chaos gods (not mortal followers) are made up of pure emotions, these emotions pool in the Warp and form vortexes, the stronger negative emotions pull in the lesser emotions and absorb them into the whole, kinda like how galaxies collide or black holes absorb each other, forming a larger vortex, they grow larger and larger on the emotions projected into the warp and start to gain sentience, but are still slaves to their own nature's, they are sentient to a point, self aware enough to want to preserve their own "lives" but not the same level as humans and certainly not the level of eldar, this is evidenced by the acts of their greater deamons, which are lesser clones of the main god, different aspects and powerful avatar's of emotion that spawned them, so while the sentient storm has achieved it's own level of sentience, it is not possible to change its behavior to a less destructive path, as the emotions it is made of will not allow it.
As I've said before, Chaos commits acts of evil, but a shark is not considered evil when it kills, it's just acting in accordance to its nature, it can't change what it is, neither can the chaos gods.
This is all covered by liber chaotica, thousand sons, talon of horus and other books.
I did read it before hand, and that's my bad for neglecting to mention that, as a whole, I honestly disagree with that definition of sentience with regards to Chaos. I think what you are describing is better put under the umbrella of something like 'Self-Awareness', which would allow the preclusion of morality where sentience wouldn't. So my first comment in my previous post stands as long as you maintain that they are sentient. As for my other comments in that post, they stand regardless.
dusara217 wrote: So we're just going to ignore the fact that Khorne murders innocents, despite the many Martial Codes he has absorbed...
Well apparently Formosa is. :/
Now now, no need for snipes
Khorne embodies all aspects of rage, anger, the thrill of the hunt, bloodletting, the panic of being attacked, the cries of the unjustly slain, the terror of all the souls murdered for no reason and the insanity of war.
Khorne embodies martial pride, honour, brotherhood, fighting for the weak, pride in being promoted and all the others.
Khorne follows have shown all these traits through various books, deamons however have never shown any of the positive traits described above to my knowledge.
Which of these emotions are the strongest, as liber chaotica states there are a lot of crossovers between the gods, this manifests in them fighting over these emotions, or as we understand it, Khorne invading the garden of nurgle, or Slaanesh attacking Tzeentch, this last part is Conjecture, but it's backed by the fluff so it makes sense....sometimes they they fight for lols, it's chaos.
An example of a Khorne deamon, this deamon was made up of the emotions of a city that was ransacked in the dark ages (not daot), the city was attacked, it's people burned alive and put to the stake, and all the other lovely things that happen jn those situations, this creature was self aware, but was still controlled by its initial creation, it was a very powerful bloodletter, guess what it wanted to do... It was killing chaos space Marines left right and centre, does that make it evil... Of course not, it never had a choice in the matter, it is what it is, neither good nor evil, Chaos is simply energy given form by other races, they make it what it is, so it cannot be evil, the other races commit the qcts of evil which creates the beings of Chaos, which in turn commit acts of evil, don't commit evil, Chaos stops commiting these acts.
Chaos are slaves to the whims of the other races, which in turn creates more chaos as that is all it can do, due to the other races, it's ironic that the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods, but the mortals do not know this.
dusara217 wrote: So we're just going to ignore the fact that Khorne murders innocents, despite the many Martial Codes he has absorbed...
Well apparently Formosa is. :/
Now now, no need for snipes
Khorne embodies all aspects of rage, anger, the thrill of the hunt, bloodletting, the panic of being attacked, the cries of the unjustly slain, the terror of all the souls murdered for no reason and the insanity of war.
Khorne embodies martial pride, honour, brotherhood, fighting for the weak, pride in being promoted and all the others.
Khorne follows have shown all these traits through various books, deamons however have never shown any of the positive traits described above to my knowledge.
Which of these emotions are the strongest, as liber chaotica states there are a lot of crossovers between the gods, this manifests in them fighting over these emotions, or as we understand it, Khorne invading the garden of nurgle, or Slaanesh attacking Tzeentch, this last part is Conjecture, but it's backed by the fluff so it makes sense....sometimes they they fight for lols, it's chaos.
An example of a Khorne deamon, this deamon was made up of the emotions of a city that was ransacked in the dark ages (not daot), the city was attacked, it's people burned alive and put to the stake, and all the other lovely things that happen jn those situations, this creature was self aware, but was still controlled by its initial creation, it was a very powerful bloodletter, guess what it wanted to do... It was killing chaos space Marines left right and centre, does that make it evil... Of course not, it never had a choice in the matter, it is what it is, neither good nor evil, Chaos is simply energy given form by other races, they make it what it is, so it cannot be evil, the other races commit the qcts of evil which creates the beings of Chaos, which in turn commit acts of evil, don't commit evil, Chaos stops commiting these acts.
Chaos are slaves to the whims of the other races, which in turn creates more chaos as that is all it can do, due to the other races, it's ironic that the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods, but the mortals do not know this.
Liber Chaotica was written for WHFB, not for 40k. They are two separate Universes, according to current fluff; therefore, it has no place in this discussion.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Chaos Spawn wrote: Here we go: wh40k.lexicanum.com
wh40k.lexicanum.com
www.comicvine.com
new-monster.wikia.com
Are you... well? You're going to ask people to go to comicvine to find your references for you?
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
IllumiNini wrote: I did read it before hand, and that's my bad for neglecting to mention that, as a whole, I honestly disagree with that definition of sentience with regards to Chaos. I think what you are describing is better put under the umbrella of something like 'Self-Awareness', which would allow the preclusion of morality where sentience wouldn't. So my first comment in my previous post stands as long as you maintain that they are sentient. As for my other comments in that post, they stand regardless.
As for the books, I haven't read them.
sen·tience (sĕn′shəns, -shē-əns, -tē-əns)
n.
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.
(from The Free Dictionary)
Sentience by no means forces a concept of morality to exist within a being. You're thinking of sapience.
The property of being sapient, the property of possessing or being able to possess wisdom.
2009, Robert Brandom, Reason in Philosophy: Animating Ideas wrote:
"I then marked out three ways in which we can instead describe and demarcate ourselves in terms of the sapience that distinguishes us from the beasts of forest and field."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 07:55:18
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
I'm still under the impression that choice isn't something Chaos gets for free.
You can't tell a Plaguebearer to stop spreading disease. It's origin is still in that very concept. You can't tell Skulltaker to not take skulls anymore, it's in its nature.
Relative to us, they do evil things. They perform evil actions to perpetuate their existence because such things help them develop. But they themselves aren't evil just because it's harmful to us.
If they do evil and not care about the consequences because it's in their nature, then they are in essence, not evil.
If they do evil and lament the fact that what they're doing is wrong, but still do it anyway, then they're really evil.
dusara217 wrote: So we're just going to ignore the fact that Khorne murders innocents, despite the many Martial Codes he has absorbed...
Well apparently Formosa is. :/
Now now, no need for snipes
Khorne embodies all aspects of rage, anger, the thrill of the hunt, bloodletting, the panic of being attacked, the cries of the unjustly slain, the terror of all the souls murdered for no reason and the insanity of war.
Khorne embodies martial pride, honour, brotherhood, fighting for the weak, pride in being promoted and all the others.
Khorne follows have shown all these traits through various books, deamons however have never shown any of the positive traits described above to my knowledge.
Which of these emotions are the strongest, as liber chaotica states there are a lot of crossovers between the gods, this manifests in them fighting over these emotions, or as we understand it, Khorne invading the garden of nurgle, or Slaanesh attacking Tzeentch, this last part is Conjecture, but it's backed by the fluff so it makes sense....sometimes they they fight for lols, it's chaos.
An example of a Khorne deamon, this deamon was made up of the emotions of a city that was ransacked in the dark ages (not daot), the city was attacked, it's people burned alive and put to the stake, and all the other lovely things that happen jn those situations, this creature was self aware, but was still controlled by its initial creation, it was a very powerful bloodletter, guess what it wanted to do... It was killing chaos space Marines left right and centre, does that make it evil... Of course not, it never had a choice in the matter, it is what it is, neither good nor evil, Chaos is simply energy given form by other races, they make it what it is, so it cannot be evil, the other races commit the qcts of evil which creates the beings of Chaos, which in turn commit acts of evil, don't commit evil, Chaos stops commiting these acts.
Chaos are slaves to the whims of the other races, which in turn creates more chaos as that is all it can do, due to the other races, it's ironic that the gods need the mortals more than the mortals need the gods, but the mortals do not know this.
Liber Chaotica was written for WHFB, not for 40k. They are two separate Universes, according to current fluff; therefore, it has no place in this discussion.
Liber chaotica was written from a whfb point of view, it's contains information on the followers of Chaos in 40k, 40k and fantasy are connected through the warp, as per the fluff.
Therefore it has every place in this discussion, I'd politely ask you to please keep up to date on this fact.
Years ago some magical gw rep claimed they were not connected.
This was almost immediately contradicted by several black library productions, gw Codex and campaign books
Gw has shown since that the 2 world's are connected through the warp, so, so many times.
Now fantasy has blown up and no longer exists, whether or not the "bubble" verse is connected to the 40k universe is unknown as the fluff doesn't interest me.
Oh and the deamon I was referring to....was a 40k one...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IllumiNini wrote: My bad. In any case, the fact we're talking sapience vs sentience probably means this argument has gone a bit too far and a bit too deep.
The debate between good and evil, even in a made up world, can never go too far! What what!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 12:05:10
Formosa wrote: Gw has shown since that the 2 world's are connected through the warp, so, so many times.
There are tons of online discussions on this subject but I've never seen any proof of GW saying the two are connected. Do you have any specific examples showing this to be the case?
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
All the deamon characters.
Soul grinder
40k weaponry in fantasy, including chainsword, power fist etc.
Liber chaotica books outright stating that it's possible for Chaos marines to turn up.
Deamon weapon in liber chaotica called "chainblade"
Chaos warriors "rending blade"
Note, I've never said they are the same universe, there not, they are connected through the warp, it touches all world and universes, this is also stated in several places. As stated, they have shown many times they are connected, in return, I've never seen evidence of this magical gw rep stating they are not connected.
All the deamon characters.
Soul grinder
40k weaponry in fantasy, including chainsword, power fist etc.
Liber chaotica books outright stating that it's possible for Chaos marines to turn up.
Deamon weapon in liber chaotica called "chainblade"
Chaos warriors "rending blade"
Note, I've never said they are the same universe, there not, they are connected through the warp, it touches all world and universes, this is also stated in several places. As stated, they have shown many times they are connected, in return, I've never seen evidence of this magical gw rep stating they are not connected.
Hm, I guess the Soul Grinder thing is kinda obvious and the Liber Chaotica thing too. I didn't know power fists and chainswords were in WFB. Is that a recent thing? I haven't seen any of that but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. The daemon characters don't mean much since they could just be two versions of the same characters and the background is tailored to the setting. And if they're connected through the Warp, isn't that the same as being in the same universe?
But I see where you're coming from. Interesting.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Remember that time when the 'Imperiums finest', the Grey Knights, slaughtered a bunch of Sisters of Battle and bathed in the blood. Yeah, the Imperium is just as evil as Chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 14:12:12
Formosa wrote: ...Chaos simply is, it's a by product of the turbulence in the Warp, literally a sentient warp storm.
The fact that you attribute them with sentience gives them the power to have a morality, which in turn means that they can be classified as evil since at least a majority of their actions are evil. So you've really just shot yourself in the foot with that.
I disagree with this. A number of humans have mental disorders that allow them to be exempted.from laws and normal morality as their brain pidgeonholes them into certain action patterns. They are sentient, but ate not always able to choose to act good.
Similar thing with Chaos.
The emperor was always the evil one. He is a tyrant and always was join me or die all those different from me die. If you come bringing peace and I do not like you, you die. He inslaved millions of world subjagated them to his law ,slaughtered all others. The chaos he speaks, Of that is evil allows you free will the right to choose your own path where the emperor brain washes his people.
I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor since they acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it is him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more then what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain control of the weak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 14:46:53
I need to go to work every day.
Millions of people on welfare depend on me.
OgreChubbs wrote: I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor wince the acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more thhen what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain controlof the weak.
Uh... you're going to bring the Revolutionary War into this? The fictional Imperium of 40k has very little in common with the British Empire of old... not that they "inslaved" the colonial population. Thinking that Americans should side against the Imperium because their ancestors fought the British Empire centuries ago... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Seriously, what is up with this thread?
And you have no "choice" when you serve Chaos. Chaos takes you, then owns you, body and soul.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 14:53:45
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
OgreChubbs wrote: I thought the americans on here would be really against the emperor wince the acused the british king of the same things and revolted but I guess now it him inslaving his own people lol. I.e. Space marines are not allowed to be anything more thhen what they allow them to be their puppets to maintain controlof the weak.
Uh... you're going to bring the Revolutionary War into this? The fictional Imperium of 40k has very little in common with the British Empire of old... not that they "inslaved" the colonial population. Thinking that Americans should side against the Imperium because their ancestors fought the British Empire centuries ago... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Seriously, what is up with this thread?
And you have no "choice" when you serve Chaos. Chaos takes you, then owns you, body and soul.
I would advise you not to take that bait
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
1500pts
At War With Fate? Maybe I am and maybe I'm not... 
