Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well said puree. I brought up one of your points before but it has been totally ignored:

 Manchu wrote:
In the case of the Stormcast, there is an interesting angle precisely in the fact that they do not die. They have already died, which is interesting in itself, and now they are "doomed" to fight forever for Sigmar, knowing that with each fresh "death" on the battlefield a little more of who they were in life will slip away.

Besides the absolutely bizarre insistence that SM are totally relatable as human beings -- a point many HH novels explicitly reject -- there is also the equally bizarre insistence that the issue of relatability as human comes down to the question of death. Assuming it isn't a bad faith argument, this reflects a narrow, idiosyncratic taste. People don't read about SM because the depth of their humanity. They read about SM because they are genetically and surgically modified post-humans. People don't read about SM because they can die. They read about SM because they are incredibly resilient superwarriors.

It can't be helped if someone in particular does or doesn't like AoS fluff. But given the thread topic, the claim has to be a bit broader: the fluff is bad/good enough to be a factor in AoS failing/succeeding. AoS has adopted some apparently successful conventions from 40k. GW is not unaware that SM sell really, really well. It's funny to watch people call Stormcast Sigmarines and then bend over backwards trying to say Stormcast are not like SM in the important, successful ways. I can understand the argument that Sigmarines are boring but the argument that Sigmarines are boring but SM are exciting makes no sense. The best argument along that line of thought is, it is boring that GW's answer to revamping Fantasy was "add Space Marines." But, again, given how incredibly popular SM are, it's a savvy move.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What chance is there in 10 years time of there being AoS equivalents of the Angry Marines, Reasonable Marines, Chaos-chan, and so on?

These memes are largely a result of Dawn of War. So I'd say the probability of internet memes being developed for AoS is a matter of whether GW licenses AoS to a video game developer who turns out a beloved game.

 Manchu wrote:
But, again, given how incredibly popular SM are, it's a savvy move.

Unless of course they are 2 different games with different appeals to different groups and GW just ends up putting out an army with next to no post starter set sales while losing money by not releasing SM models that would have sold like hot cakes.

Well we have been through that but to summarize the argument: in the experience of GW, the group that SM appeal to is larger than the the group that a fantasy version of the Thirty Years War appeals to, for better or for worse.

puree wrote:
I normally don't bother with GW novels, but all the debate about the AOS fluff made me go out and read the first novel (or I think the first) war storm. Hardly going to win a literary prize, but reading it I found the following:

And with that, puree has outed every single person in this thread who speaks authoritatively on AoS but whose knowledge extends only to the box cover of the game.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The economy is based on Ur-gold because during development, the design team were asked what was the currency of the Mortal Realms and they hadn't thought about that yet and they replied, "Err... gold."

Back on topic, the reason for Fyre Slayer Dwarves to fight for whoever pays the most is so they can appear in Chaos and Undead armies as well as Order.

This lets anyone buy a set of the models because they are cool. (That's the wrong adjective for Fire Dwarves but you get my point.)

I think for the Fyre Slayers all gold is "Ur-gold". Until they take it from you, and then it becomes "Ma-Gold".

 Manchu wrote:
Besides the absolutely bizarre insistence that SM are totally relatable as human beings -- a point many HH novels explicitly reject -- there is also the equally bizarre insistence that the issue of relatability as human comes down to the question of death. Assuming it isn't a bad faith argument, this reflects a narrow, idiosyncratic taste. People don't read about SM because the depth of their humanity. They read about SM because they are genetically and surgically modified post-humans. People don't read about SM because they can die. They read about SM because they are incredibly resilient superwarriors.

That's not really true.

The most beloved of the HH books is precisely the ones who focus on trying to make the marines relatable, with human qualities and flaws. 'Betrayer' and 'The first Heretic' is often mentioned as peoples favourites, precisely because they give some depth and personality to previous very onedimensional groups. There are a fair bit of HH books who reads like you describe; Flanderized superwarriors killing stuff; AKA pure bolterporn*. These books are routinely slammed and lothed by readers of the HH series. (Battle for the abyss is often seen as one of the very worst in the series due to these complaints).


*I'd say that every HH book has it's share of bolterporn to show off the marines coolnes and super-skills. The well recieved ones have lots of more human elements in between those scenes however.

 Bottle wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The economy is based on Ur-gold because during development, the design team were asked what was the currency of the Mortal Realms and they hadn't thought about that yet and they replied, "Err... gold."

Back on topic, the reason for Fyre Slayer Dwarves to fight for whoever pays the most is so they can appear in Chaos and Undead armies as well as Order.

This lets anyone buy a set of the models because they are cool. (That's the wrong adjective for Fire Dwarves but you get my point.)

I think for the Fyre Slayers all gold is "Ur-gold". Until they take it from you, and then it becomes "Ma-Gold".

Being from the south, I laughed WAY to hard at this.

I don't dispute that some HH novels are better written than others, including because they entail more complicated characterization. But no one is reading the HH novels because they are famous, as a series or in any example, for their deep insight into human frailty. Hot supersoldier on supersoldier action is the main thing.

 judgedoug wrote:

puree wrote:
I normally don't bother with GW novels, but all the debate about the AOS fluff made me go out and read the first novel (or I think the first) war storm. Hardly going to win a literary prize, but reading it I found the following:

And with that, puree has outed every single person in this thread who speaks authoritatively on AoS but whose knowledge extends only to the box cover of the game.

Box cover of the game and summaries of the fluff from people who have read it. I am tempted to try and borrow one of the books to give it a read though, just to see how wrong I am.

Herzlos wrote:
I am tempted to try and borrow one of the books to give it a read though, just to see how wrong I am.

See if you can make sure that book is War Storm

 judgedoug wrote:

puree wrote:
I normally don't bother with GW novels, but all the debate about the AOS fluff made me go out and read the first novel (or I think the first) war storm. Hardly going to win a literary prize, but reading it I found the following:

And with that, puree has outed every single person in this thread who speaks authoritatively on AoS but whose knowledge extends only to the box cover of the game.

True that! It's very difficult to have enlightening conversations over AoS fluff with critics who have not read the fluff nor have any desire to understand the fluff.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't dispute that some HH novels are better written than others, including because they entail more complicated characterization. But no one is reading the HH novels because they are famous, as a series or in any example, for their deep insight into human frailty. Hot supersoldier on supersoldier action is the main thing.

I don't think that's quite fair. There could be lots of reasons they are reading them, for example if they want to learn more about the Imperium of 30k, or if they are a fan of (for example) Dan Abnett's other work (and in this example they would just be reading his contributions). Youmdon't have to be a die-hard space marine fan to want to read them.

And I don't think it's quite fair when you say one cannot claim Stormcast are boring if they like Space Marines. There is enough nuances and differences between them to make it an entirely valid stand point in my opinion.

Personally I don't particularly like either, but I vastly prefer Space Marines, and probably because they are mortal.

 Manchu wrote:
Besides the absolutely bizarre insistence that SM are totally relatable as human beings -- a point many HH novels explicitly reject -- there is also the equally bizarre insistence that the issue of relatability as human comes down to the question of death. Assuming it isn't a bad faith argument, this reflects a narrow, idiosyncratic taste. People don't read about SM because the depth of their humanity. They read about SM because they are genetically and surgically modified post-humans. People don't read about SM because they can die. They read about SM because they are incredibly resilient superwarriors.

My knowledge of the Space Marines comes from the non-HH books like the Ultramarines series, though my experience of the HH books (before they turned into super-pulp bolter-porn) was that they still had personalities.

GW seems to think we want to read about Space Marines because they are invincible super-warriors, but that seems to be putting a lot of readers off now (due to the coining of bolter-porn where all depth seems to have vanished in order to fit in more EPIC ACTION! ALL THE TIME! EPIC!).

I enjoyed Gaunts Ghosts, Caiphas Caine and the Eisenhorn series a lot more than the Gotrek and Felix series precisely because they weren't particuarly special. I got totally bored of the G&F series after about the 4th time it looked like they were about to get overwhelmed then Gotrek went into some sort of rage, killed thousands of enemies and ended up victorious, in a trance and covered in thousands of small wounds but totally oblivious. At that point I realised that Gotrek will always win, and there's no actual sense of danger or drama. The only thing that really changed across the books was the colours of the piles of slain enemies. It was always the same trance, the same thousands of enemies and the same thousands of cuts. Apart from the big monsters, where they'd pull an almost hobbit like "and then Gotrek killed it, the end.".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MongooseMatt wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I am tempted to try and borrow one of the books to give it a read though, just to see how wrong I am.

See if you can make sure that book is War Storm

I'll do my best. Is it a particularly good example or a bad example or is it one of yours (in which case I'll be nice ) ?

I've got the Judge Dredd book to read too, btw

If there's one ting I dislike about the fluff it's the Mary Sue-ness of the Stormcast. They always win, and they're quite high and mighty and noble. The most interesting characters are the Relictors, with their connection to Nagash and the Realm of Death. One of them is even a confirmed former vampire which is pretty interesting. I'd like to see more nuanced characters like that and some humbling, crushing defeats! My favorite aspect of the fluff is the world itself, without a doubt. The realms are very imaginative (that's not to say they're original, although I don't see that as a goal in and of itself) and the different environments we get to see are both evocative and interesting.

Ive read the world books, they are a lot more soup and less meat and potatoes then the average starting rules set. There is a lot more details then it seems, but it is no basic rulebook.

Most previous rulebooks for fantasy and 40k follow a similar layout. the first third to half of the book is the rules. The next section is full overview descriptions of each race, where they are at, who they are fighting, and what they are all about.
These sections typically have full color artwork that embodies each race, along with large pictures detailing the models of the races.

either before or after this is a basic description of the state of things, either how the old world is doing in general, the state of the golden throne, etc. This section contains the more sweeping vistas from the game, and talks about all the treats to the established mortals.

I think they need to put out something like that, just a brief blurb about each race and how they fit into the new realms. I know for legal reasons they don't want to publish rules for anything that doesn't have a model, but it would go a long way if I was an empire player to know what they are keeping and what they are dropping.

So far the background is very mythological, it does read like Greek and Roman gods fighting. What's missing is the humans/mortals that they are all fighting over and about. They talk a lot about the Stormcast Eternals protecting or freeing towns and peoples, or finding people they used to have alliances with, but they haven't really talked about a lot about it.

Mythology doesn't really work without the mortals watching it unfold.

 Mymearan wrote:
If there's one ting I dislike about the fluff it's the Mary Sue-ness of the Stormcast. They always win, and they're quite high and mighty and noble.

They lose pretty badly at the Gates of Dawn, apparently. From the first rulebook: "Many of the battles that followed grew in scale and ferocity as defenders poured forth. Of the battle at the Gates of Dawn the Stormcast Eternals do not speak, so grievous were their losses there." I think more about that battle is in War Storm, though I haven't gotten to that part yet (currently reading). As both a fan of Chaos and Order, I too am looking forward to seeing the Stormcast Eternals defeated at least once I agree with you too about the nuanced characters; Ionus Cryptborn was my favorite in Gates of Azyr, though Vandus Hammerhand had his moments that made you wonder just how resolved the Stormcast Eternals are in their fight, and I was surprised at how "human" he was at times because I went into the book thinking the Stormcast Eternals were these heartless, high and mighty vindicators who didn't experience human emotions like doubt, fear and anger. But there's more to them than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pox wrote:Mythology doesn't really work without the mortals watching it unfold.

I totally agree with that, and wish they would have opened with more info on the mortal races (mankind, duardins, and aelfs especially - their fate seems rather mysterious). And I just feel so bad for all the Empire/Brettonian players who have no idea if their models still have a place in the new setting. Anway, there are human survivors in Gates of Azyr though, who watch the battle between the Stormcast Eternals and Goretide. They weren't necessary for the story, but I'm glad their viewpoint was included; it definitely added more pathos to the novel.

 Mymearan wrote:
If there's one ting I dislike about the fluff it's the Mary Sue-ness of the Stormcast. They always win, and they're quite high and mighty and noble. The most interesting characters are the Relictors, with their connection to Nagash and the Realm of Death. One of them is even a confirmed former vampire which is pretty interesting. I'd like to see more nuanced characters like that and some humbling, crushing defeats! My favorite aspect of the fluff is the world itself, without a doubt. The realms are very imaginative (that's not to say they're original, although I don't see that as a goal in and of itself) and the different environments we get to see are both evocative and interesting.

Er which one is a former vampire? They are all human I do recall one used to be a necromancers apprentice. Anyway this is why I prefer the audiobooks and stories dealing with the hallowed knights stormcasts they had to deal with a lot of things during their old lives and their current ones as stormcast. In the new audio book lord of helstone Tarsus pretty much returns to the land he used to rule when he was mortal you really feel for the guy considering what happens to the people there. Plus when that vampire raises black knights and they salute at him saying his old name. Plus Vandus and Ionus are favourites of mine as well struggling with their past and Vandus worry over losing his memories and dying. Also in the second audiobook the vampire and Tarsus meet some human pilgrims and they explain their situation how they currently live in the world of death its actually quite interesting.

Plus nagash's speeches at the start of each audiobook you can hear and understand his frustrations if you know how the realms are in the current setting and he REALLY hates sigmar and chaos is equal measure.

I'm going to lock this thread as we've wandered far from the original topic, which was to discuss whether or not there was data to support how AoS is perceived to be performing.

We've certainly gone over all the available facts by now, and the thread has splintered into discussion of many aspects of AoS which don't really belong in this thread, and which are being more divisive than they would be in a more "neutral" thread.

Anyone interested in discussing any particular aspect further (AoS background material, how events can best be run for the game, etc) please start a new thread dedicated to just such a topic. Cheers all!