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Davor wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
its easy ernought o drop a minor upgrade, melta bomb, maybe a storm bolter or something.

that or just give the other side some extra like the same above and leave it at that.

decent people can sort things out without having to argue. everyone makes mistakes, and you just come up with a quick fix.

So what is the quick fix against formations that give out free points? Again I find it funny people think it's so easy, people say drop this or that, but it's ok to get 100s of points for free just because you field a formation and either get units for free or abilities for free without paying for them.

So again, going 5 points over in 7th edition is not a big deal anymore. Unless the person who says don't go over ZERO points over the limit and doesn't field these free points formations are would be correct, but if you say not to go over the point limit but do field these formations is nothing but a hypocrite.

There IS no quick fix, because they're legal lists so long as they hit the point limit

What YOU want to do is break the BRB.

Just because something is legal does not make it right. If the rules said that, when I play eldar, I get a free wraithknight for every 500 points in a list, would that be fair? Could that same list's player then talk trash to a player 3 points over the list limit? Where is the deciding limit on balance and fairness?

Have you heard of the six stages of moral development? This is the xheif difference of opinion: you are in the stage of law/order (the rules are the rules because they are, follow them), while the other side is established as the stage of moral consciousness (the rules are there to help others, and are secondary to the benefit of the people). So while in your mind anyone who goes over the limit is a cheater and to be looked down on, the other side sees that point of view as to far straightfoward and narrow minded when it encourages undeeded strain on a fundamentally social activity meant to be fun and relaxed. Obviously some people find fun in a balanced game, which if the person over the list understands would volunteer to lower it. But it cannot be demanded, because there is no deciding factor or mediator on what is truly fair. The rulebook is ultimately just a guide to "forge the Narrative", to encourage fun. If one side is not enjoying the experience, both " rules lawyer" or "cheater", then the game should not go further and the two should be avoiding eachother for games that don't have hard coded rules and regulations (I.e. videogames where you can't finaggle rules). If a whole community is one of the two, then the other should avoid it and find another or start their own.

autumnlotus wrote:
Just because something is legal does not make it right. If the rules said that, when I play eldar, I get a free wraithknight for every 500 points in a list, would that be fair? Could that same list's player then talk trash to a player 3 points over the list limit? Where is the deciding limit on balance and fairness?

Would it be too much to ask for you guys to use an argument that isn't just a massive strawman?

Also, if you think free points are so unfair, why not start a separate thread about that, as opposed to hijacking this one?

Because the argument going on is nonsensical with nobody arguing against the point being made. Yes adding points and expecting it to be okay by default is obnoxious and cheating. But making a list before a game and asking if the list as is would be okay is not cheating. Cheating implies deception and trying to get a leg up unfairly, which I can only assume most people don't try to do since the only thing someone gets for being WAAC is feeding their own ego. You don't like the extextra points? That's fine, its your opinion and it is valuable as being part of the fanbase. But the same is true for people who have a couple extra points just like those with free points in formations abilities or summoning. It's all about different playstyles.

And strawmans are hard not to make when someone only states one point over and over, in this case calling someone a cheater repeatedly. Yes if you come to the store I frequent with that attitude and name calling you would be told to leave, just like if someone was running 1530 pts in a 1500 and refused to change it and was acting rude and loud. It's the attitude that is the issue, not the actual desire for a balanced list in points

Back in my day, it was always < 10, preferably < 5. I even recall seeing the occasional White Dwarf battle report where someone had say 1503 points instead of 1500, I think once I saw as much as 9 points over.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Back in my day, it was always < 10, preferably < 5. I even recall seeing the occasional White Dwarf battle report where someone had say 1503 points instead of 1500, I think once I saw as much as 9 points over.

This is accurate. WD was known to do loose game rules, often making up scenarios and missions that were uneven. Like the ultramarine fight where there were nest building terrains on the field that randomly rolled for tyranids to pour out until they were destroyed. Definitely unbalanced, but still interesting.

Davor wrote:
So what is the quick fix against formations that give out free points?

I fix it by just not using formations at all.

They're another one of the current edition's pile of 'Great idea, poorly executed' things.

White dwarf also redid important shooting rounds and combat to pimp their newer toys if say the new big bad marines were losing to vile Xenos. Or in other words they cheated alot and didn't care.

autumnlotus wrote:
Just because something is legal does not make it right. If the rules said that, when I play eldar, I get a free wraithknight for every 500 points in a list, would that be fair? Could that same list's player then talk trash to a player 3 points over the list limit? Where is the deciding limit on balance and fairness?

Yes they could because they're using the rules to make the best army they can, and you want to actually break core rules from, ya know, the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

autumnlotus wrote:
You don't like the extextra points? That's fine, its your opinion

For the last time it isn't opinion. People cited the BRB.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:
Just because something is legal does not make it right. If the rules said that, when I play eldar, I get a free wraithknight for every 500 points in a list, would that be fair? Could that same list's player then talk trash to a player 3 points over the list limit? Where is the deciding limit on balance and fairness?

Yes they could because they're using the rules to make the best army they can, and you want to actually break core rules from, ya know, the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

autumnlotus wrote:
You don't like the extextra points? That's fine, its your opinion

For the last time it isn't opinion. People cited the BRB.

What core rules.

The ones that say that your army can't exceed the agreed points limit.


But, honestly, the idea that the rules should actually need to spell that out is a bit crazy. A limit is a limit.

autumnlotus wrote:
Because the argument going on is nonsensical with nobody arguing against the point being made.

I'm well aware that you're not arguing against the points we've made.

autumnlotus wrote:
But making a list before a game and asking if the list as is would be okay is not cheating.

But why go over at all? Why not just show some courteously to your opponent and stick to the agreed point limit?

There seems to be this sense of entitlement whereby you think you're the only one with any difficult decisions to make. Please bear in mind that your opponent also had difficult decisions to make, but he made them so as not to exceed the agreed limit. Do the polite thing and arrive with a list that isn't over the limit.

What I'm arguing is not about the point limit as the focus. When I make a list I aim for 10 points lower then the actual number to make sure that any overlap can be soaked up by the 10. What I'm arguing is that if someone comes up, in the case here having made the list after agreeing to a point amount a moment before, and tells the other player that they are over the limit by x amount and it would be more effort then changing a number (3 points over, but no choices that amount or a little more), I would like to think both players can agree and be civil about a small difference or work out a way to increase or lower the amount to be closer.

The thing that makes this an argument is the other side, with the mindset some of the people here seem to have, is to ignore the above problem solving solutions I listed and instead demand the person fix their list while they do nothing. It's a question of civility. I don't disagree with that desire for balance, merely the disrespect and tone behind the statements

autumnlotus wrote:
The thing that makes this an argument is the other side, with the mindset some of the people here seem to have, is to ignore the above problem solving solutions I listed and instead demand the person fix their list while they do nothing.

Why should they do something? They've done nothing wrong. It's the other player who's violated the points agreement.

What baffles me is people like you demonizing people for the crime of following the rules, whilst acting as if the people breaking the point agreement are the ones in the right somehow.

autumnlotus wrote:
What I'm arguing is that if someone comes up, in the case here having made the list after agreeing to a point amount a moment before, and tells the other player that they are over the limit by x amount and it would be more effort then changing a number (3 points over, but no choices that amount or a little more), I would like to think both players can agree and be civil about a small difference or work out a way to increase or lower the amount to be closer.

Or, the player with the illegal list can choose to be civil and never ask to cheat in the first place. They're putting their opponent in an awkward position where they're pressured to say "ok, you can have the extra points" with the threat of being shunned from the group if they don't. The decent thing to do is just accept that you have X points available to spend, and make a legal list. Doing otherwise is no better than moving your infantry 6.5" to get into range and then asking your opponent to let you have it.

The thing that makes this an argument is the other side, with the mindset some of the people here seem to have, is to ignore the above problem solving solutions I listed and instead demand the person fix their list while they do nothing.

Well yes, when one player attempts to cheat the solution is for that player to stop cheating, not for their opponent to work to accommodate them.

By the time it took the player to go and ask his opponent if he can break their agreement and give all the reasons why he should be able to do so, he would have had more than enough time to rewrite his list so it was legal according to the agreed points limit.

The other aspect is that 99% of the time it's not a matter of 'can't' it's a matter of 'don't want to'. As in, the person has a lot of gear or other stuff that they could easily drop, but don't want to drop *any* of it.

And, they'd much rather just play with too many points than actually have to make a hard decision.

Liked the old epic 'over the top' rule, take the number of points you are over, divide by ten, round up, now roll higher than that on a d6, if so you got away with it - if not you must remove a whole unit to bring you back under the total.

So you can, with a risk.

Worked very nicely, except for lists with units costing 50 points or less where you may as well give it a try.

Because not every group has a astrocizing mindset to people wanting to talk about altering agreed upon list counts. But this is a cyclical debate, and I'm tired of being ignored and having words put into my mouth. If none of you are capable of understanding that this is a Group game, requiring discussion and understanding, rather then a all-competetive all-the-time game where everyone is required to follow rules to the letter no matter what, then I am glad those types have left my area ages ago to have screaming matches over warmachine.

autumnlotus wrote:
What I'm arguing is not about the point limit as the focus. When I make a list I aim for 10 points lower then the actual number to make sure that any overlap can be soaked up by the 10. What I'm arguing is that if someone comes up, in the case here having made the list after agreeing to a point amount a moment before, and tells the other player that they are over the limit by x amount and it would be more effort then changing a number (3 points over, but no choices that amount or a little more), I would like to think both players can agree and be civil about a small difference or work out a way to increase or lower the amount to be closer.

In that situation, in the interests of just getting on with the game, I would generally just go with it.

Having said that, If I've shown up somewhere for a game and a potential opponent wants to sit down and write up an army list on the spot, I'll generally just go and find a different opponent who has already done their homework...



And having said that, this:

... with the mindset some of the people here seem to have, is to ignore the above problem solving solutions I listed and instead demand the person fix their list while they do nothing.

There isn't really anything that the second player has to do. Just as they don't have to agree that your guys should be able to move 7" instead of 6...

It's certainly nice if the other player doesn't have a problem with the extra points... but it shouldn't just be expected.

It is, indeed, a matter of civility. Just not the way you're suggesting. The polite thing is to attempt to abide by the agreed points limit. Asking your opponent to allow you to go over is perfectly acceptable. Just expecting that they should allow it is not.

autumnlotus wrote:
Because not every group has a astrocizing mindset to people wanting to talk about altering agreed upon list counts. But this is a cyclical debate, and I'm tired of being ignored and having words put into my mouth. If none of you are capable of understanding that this is a Group game, requiring discussion and understanding, rather then a all-competetive all-the-time game where everyone is required to follow rules to the letter no matter what, then I am glad those types have left my area ages ago to have screaming matches over warmachine.

Yet you're trying to ostracize the player who wants to stick to the agreed points limit. That's the pot calling the kettle black.

autumnlotus wrote:
If none of you are capable of understanding that this is a Group game, requiring discussion and understanding, rather then a all-competetive all-the-time game where everyone is required to follow rules to the letter no matter what, then I am glad those types have left my area ages ago to have screaming matches over warmachine.

The point you're missing here is that there is no discussion required. There's a point limit, and you bring a legal list that fits within the point limit. If there's a "screaming match" as a result of your list construction choices then you have only yourself to blame, for trying to gain an advantage by breaking the rules and then guilt your opponent into letting you have it.

And, again, if I moved my infantry an extra 1" to get into range to kill your unit would you believe that you have an obligation to negotiate a way to let me have it?

I don't expect it though: I just ask for a discussion and civility to it all. It's the same if someone else is the one with a few extra points. It's not about "cheating", its about not being a rude person to your partner

autumnlotus wrote:
Because not every group has a astrocizing mindset to people wanting to talk about altering agreed upon list counts. But this is a cyclical debate, and I'm tired of being ignored and having words put into my mouth. If none of you are capable of understanding that this is a Group game, requiring discussion and understanding, rather then a all-competetive all-the-time game where everyone is required to follow rules to the letter no matter what, then I am glad those types have left my area ages ago to have screaming matches over warmachine.

You keep spouting this drivel, but apparently don't even read what you write.

Yes, it's a group game, hence why you should be civil and stick to the agreed point limit - as opposed to putting their opponent in an unpleasant situation.

What's worse is that you act like the people breaching the agreement are somehow the injured party. No, sorry, they're the ones in the wrong.

autumnlotus wrote:
I don't expect it though: I just ask for a discussion and civility to it all. It's the same if someone else is the one with a few extra points. It's not about "cheating", its about not being a rude person to your partner

Yet again, why do you think its rude to hold someone to their agreements? I find its rude if I can't trust somebody's word.

My standards vary depending on context, and they are not always the same for myself as for others.

I never build over the limit that I design my list for. If it's a 2k list, then it is 2k points or less. Period, no matter what.

In pickup games, tournaments and the like, I expect the same from my opponent.

In a more casual context, I'd be fine with someone I know beforehand making up a more rough list. Especially so if their army is weak against mine. If my Ork buddy did a 1020 point army against my 998 point army because he wants to fit in his snazzy new battlewagon or whatever, I am not really too fussed.

That said, if you are designing a 1500 point list, design it as 1500 - don't go in with the mindset that 1505 is your limit.

My usual solution to someone wanting to go 5 points over is accepting it, with the caveat that I also get 5 additional points to spend. An extra meltabomb never hurt anyone, after all, and I can always fit one more in there.

Mostly because I don't do pre-established lists and game ideas. I pop over to the store, talk to my friends and family, and see what they want to play. Someone says 2000 points? Okay cool, I make a list at 1998 and my friend makes 2003. I see this and I either a) add a dumb lil item to balance it, b) ask them to drop a model or upgrade to fit my count, or c) play it as is. Nobody is upset, nobody is quoting rules at me like its a sermon, and nobody is being rude. Is that hard to understand? Being zero points over is the goal but it isn't required to have a fun time. I will take 100 fights with slightly unbalanced games over 1 fight where I'm talked down to and rules lawyered by a angry neckbeard.

You and your friends doing that is fine.

Demonizing others for being more strict with points - especially in prearranged games (where both players have plenty of time to write a legal list) - is not fine.

autumnlotus wrote:
I don't expect it though: I just ask for a discussion and civility to it all. It's the same if someone else is the one with a few extra points. It's not about "cheating", its about not being a rude person to your partner

Ok so you ask me a question: "Hey, I've got X amount of points above the limit, is that ok?" but apparently the only viable answer is yes, because answering no makes me a dick (even though you're "not expecting me to say yes"). Which leaves me with the question: Why did you even bother asking me? And why didn't I bring 100 points above the agreed limit since, apparently, it doesn't matter because the game is all about fun and I think it's fun to give all my daemons greater rewards but I don't want to drop a extra squad of pink horrors because I also think they're fun.

autumnlotus wrote:
I don't expect it though: I just ask for a discussion and civility to it all.

Then I will tell you, with complete civility, that your list is illegal and you need to change it. If the situation escalates from there then it's entirely your fault.

It's not about "cheating", its about not being a rude person to your partner

Sure it is. You're breaking the rules to gain an advantage for yourself. If that's not cheating then I don't know what is.