Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

The Riptide has 2 weapons and it can shoot both normally. Thus, allowing them to "shoot twice" and "carry out the shooting attacks" means they can fire each gun a second time. Nowhere in the rule does it specifically say they can fire each gun second time, just like it doesn't say the stormsruge can fire each gun a second time, yet they can

You've just made my point for me. Underline the RAW, italics the RAI. We can't prove RAI, just RAW.

SJ

You sir, are a joke.

Riptides have 2 weapons and can fire 2 weapons, if they can make 2 SHOOTING ATTACKS, then that means they can shoot each weapon twice

Therefore, when it says stormsurge can make 2 SHOOTING ATTACKS, that means they can shoot each weapon twice.

Stop trying to make yourself correct, your just digging yourself into a deeper hole.

Umm.... Actually he is right:
If the anchors are dropped then the Stormsurge can take two shooting phases BUT they are both within the same turn and as per RAW a single weapon can only be fired once per turn. So, you can drop your anchors, fire in the regular shooting phase with two weapons and then take your second Stormsurge shooting phase and fire two more weapons. However as it is still within the same turn as the first shooting phase and the first two weapons have already been discharged you must now fire two other weapon systems.
Guess that TL burst cannon will come in handy then....


@Jancoran: your whole "Just adapt your list to kill GMC's smacks in the face of hypocrisy. I play Imperial Guard and believe me when I say this: regular MC's are already a massive challenge and GMC's might as well be immortal as nothing I have will bring one down within a regular game.

" I have will bring one down within a regular game."

None of the late 6th ed or 7.0 codices do.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Umm.... Actually he is right:
If the anchors are dropped then the Stormsurge can take two shooting phases BUT they are both within the same turn and as per RAW a single weapon can only be fired once per turn. So, you can drop your anchors, fire in the regular shooting phase with two weapons and then take your second Stormsurge shooting phase and fire two more weapons. However as it is still within the same turn as the first shooting phase and the first two weapons have already been discharged you must now fire two other weapon systems.
Guess that TL burst cannon will come in handy then....


@Jancoran: your whole "Just adapt your list to kill GMC's smacks in the face of hypocrisy. I play Imperial Guard and believe me when I say this: regular MC's are already a massive challenge and GMC's might as well be immortal as nothing I have will bring one down within a regular game.

Please read all the previous comments before jumping in. I have already proven he is incorrect and that I am correct.

Riptides have 2 weapons and can fire 2 weapons in the Riptide Wing formation, if they can make "2 SHOOTING ATTACKS", then that means they can shoot each weapon twice

Therefore, when it says stormsurge can make "2 SHOOTING ATTACKS", that means they can shoot each weapon twice.


(not to mention that all this argument is moot anyway since GC can shoot all weapons not just 2 in all tournament play)

Yes, 2 shooting attacks. Within the same turn. RAW states that each weapon can only be fired once per turn.

Ask any other non-tau player and the answer will be the same.... Or how about my Vanquisher cannons and Battlecannons can now fire 8 times a turn? Because if we are discounting RAW then they will be.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, 2 shooting attacks. Within the same turn. RAW states that each weapon can only be fired once per turn.

Ask any other non-tau player and the answer will be the same.... Or how about my Vanquisher cannons and Battlecannons can now fire 8 times a turn? Because if we are discounting RAW then they will be.

then explain to me how riptides in the Riptide Wing formation can "shoot twice"/"make two shooting attacks" in the same shooting phase when they only have 2 weapons and can already fire 2 weapons.


The wording is identical with that of the stormsurge stabilizing anchors. Its funny that you are unable to explain that.

Plus in ALL TOURNAMENT AND ITC RULINGS, GC can fire ALL weapons, which means stabilizing anchors allows you to fire all weapons twice. Have fun never playing in any league/tournament play

Cant say as I have not actually rear the riptide wing but as far as I am concerned as per the RAW as written on the Stormsurges data sheet it can take two shooting phases but only fire each weapon once.
So no, you can not spam your massively overpowered weapons each phase, you will actually have to use those weaker ones too.

I think this thread has proven one thing: the Stormsurge is going on my list of things to refuse to play against. Along with the Eldar titan. That preemptively ends all arguments about it.

Tournaments and ITC rulings = / = RAW. Don't use them for arguing RAW.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Cant say as I have not actually rear the riptide wing but as far as I am concerned as per the RAW as written on the Stormsurges data sheet it can take two shooting phases but only fire each weapon once.
So no, you can not spam your massively overpowered weapons each phase, you will actually have to use those weaker ones too.

yup you can buddy. Riptide wing rule has identical wording as stormsurge and goes on to CLARIFY that "2 shooting attacks"/"Fire twice" means being able to fire the same weapons twice.

Ah, you see THAT is where it is different. The Riptide wing CLARIFIES that you can fire each weapon twice, in essence it is giving you two shooting phases AND allowing you too fire your weapons twice.

The Stormsurge allows you to take rwo shooting phases BUT does NOT include the additional part which allows you to fire your guns multiple times each in a single turn. Hence it can NOT fire the same gun twice within a single turn.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ah, you see THAT is where it is different. The Riptide wing CLARIFIES that you can fire each weapon twice, in essence it is giving you two shooting phases AND allowing you too fire your weapons twice.

The Stormsurge allows you to take rwo shooting phases BUT does NOT include the additional part which allows you to fire your guns multiple times each in a single turn. Hence it can NOT fire the same gun twice within a single turn.

*Sigh*, the clarification for the riptide does not specifically say "and the riptide is allowed to shoot each gun twice". It generally infers it can shoot each weapon twice. It clarifies that ripple effect works twice, which implies that when "making a second shooting attack", not just for the riptide but for any model with the rule, you can use the same weapon a second time.

And again, you have yet to explain to me how the riptide is able to "make two shooting attacks" when it only has 2 weapons and can fire 2 weapons.

Because the Riptide has a specific rule which says it can fire those guns twice.

The Stormsurge does not.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Because the Riptide has a specific rule which says it can fire those guns twice.

The Stormsurge does not.

Actually no the riptide does not have a specific rule that says it can. The rule says the Ripple Fire ability can work twice. Thats it. And guess what? for the ripple fire ability to work twice that means that the same gun HAS to be able to fire twice.

Now what about a situation with the riptide where i do not use ripple fire? I have 2 weapons and can fire 2 weapons per turn, but am able to "make two shooting attacks". How does that work buddy? There is nothing in their rules saying they can fire their weapons twice either. Therefore, "making two shooting attacks" means being able to fire the same weapons twice

notredameguy10 wrote:


yup you can buddy. Riptide wing rule has identical wording as stormsurge and goes on to CLARIFY that "2 shooting attacks"/"Fire twice" means being able to fire the same weapons twice.

The bolded and underlined section of your own post shoots you down again son.

The riptide DOES have a specific rule because it is mentioned within the formations rules, even if only as an extension of another rule. It. Is. Still. There. Thus the Riptide can use the same weapon twice in the same turn when benefiting from the rule.

The Stormsurge lacks any such rule or extension of rule, hence it can not use the same weapon within the same turn.

 master of ordinance wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:


yup you can buddy. Riptide wing rule has identical wording as stormsurge and goes on to CLARIFY that "2 shooting attacks"/"Fire twice" means being able to fire the same weapons twice.

The bolded and underlined section of your own post shoots you down again son.

The riptide DOES have a specific rule because it is mentioned within the formations rules, even if only as an extension of another rule. It. Is. Still. There. Thus the Riptide can use the same weapon twice in the same turn when benefiting from the rule.

The Stormsurge lacks any such rule or extension of rule, hence it can not use the same weapon within the same turn.

Im gonna just copy and paste my previous statement as you conveniently keep skipping over it

Now what about a situation with the riptide where i do not use ripple fire? I have 2 weapons and can fire 2 weapons per turn, but am able to "make two shooting attacks". How does that work buddy? There is nothing in their rules saying they can fire their weapons twice either. Therefore, "making two shooting attacks" means being able to fire the same weapons twice

And also, there is NOTHING AT ALL in the riptide wing rules that specifically say it can shoot each weapon twice. NOTHING. The rules only say that the rule ripple fire works twice, which is not the same as saying that it can shoot the same guns twice.

You mean apart from the rules exception of which is itself an extension of one of the rules within the riptide wing of which you yourself posted not minutes ago and of which I have quoted in my above post which you have also quoted?

 master of ordinance wrote:
You mean apart from the rules exception of which is itself an extension of one of the rules within the riptide wing of which you yourself posted not minutes ago and of which I have quoted in my above post which you have also quoted?

Lol you obvious cannot understand english very well.

Riptide has 2 weapons
Riptide can fire 2 weapons
Riptide Hailfire ability allows them to "make two shooting attacks"

There is not one single thing in the riptide rules that say it can fire each gun twice, yet that is obviously what they are allowed to do.

Let me put the full Ripple fire quote for you. "If a model uses Ripple Fire in the turn in which it makes a Riptide Hellfire attack, it can fire the relevant weapon four times rather than twice".

So what happens if I do not use ripple fire (as that is a nova reactor ability you activate at the beginning of your turn)? IF i do not use ripple fire I have 2 guns and can fire 2 guns in a turn.

But you just posted something that specifically states that the riptide can fire the same weapons twice. Where you lying? Because if you where not then you are now.

Either way you look at it you have backed yourself into a corner:
First you posted a quote from a rule within your army book which specifically stated that the RiptideWing, when using that particular rule, can fire the same weapon multiple times.

You have now gone on to say that said extension of the rule does not exist despite the aforementioned evidence and that the riptide can fire its weapons multiple times "because".

Which is true? Your choice.

(And by the way, I can assure you that I have an immaculate grasp of Her most Gracious and Benevolent Royal Majesties English)

 master of ordinance wrote:
But you just posted something that specifically states that the riptide can fire the same weapons twice. Where you lying? Because if you where not then you are now.

Either way you look at it you have backed yourself into a corner:
First you posted a quote from a rule within your army book which specifically stated that the RiptideWing, when using that particular rule, can fire the same weapon multiple times.

You have now gone on to say that said extension of the rule does not exist despite the aforementioned evidence and that the riptide can fire its weapons multiple times "because".

Which is true? Your choice.

(And by the way, I can assure you that I have an immaculate grasp of Her most Gracious and Benevolent Royal Majesties English)

Again, you keep ignoring my question for the fifth time.

Riptides have 2 weapons
Riptides can fire 2 weapons
Riptides are allowed to make 2 shooting attacks
I do not use ripple fire as I do not have to and the rule does not say I have to anywhere.
Explain that in any way other than the conclusion of being able to fire weapons twice.

So is this 'Ripple Fire' different from the formation bonus? You will have to pardon me here, Tau are not my strong point.

 master of ordinance wrote:
So is this 'Ripple Fire' different from the formation bonus? You will have to pardon me here, Tau are not my strong point.

Ripple fire is something every single Riptide has always had. Riptide can activate its nova reactor at the beginning of each turn and pick 1 of 4 different abilities. One of those abilities (ripple fire) allows them to shoot their small Twin-linked shoulder mounted weapons twice instead of once.

Ah, in which case that is an obvious exception since it is specifically stating that the named weapon can fire twice.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ah, in which case that is an obvious exception since it is specifically stating that the named weapon can fire twice.

I am literally yelling out loud right now because you cannot seem to understand what I am trying to say

Riptide has 2 weapons
Riptide can fire 2 weapons (ripple fire allows 1 of those to shoot a second time)
Riptide Hailfire allows a "second shooting attack"

You are getting tripped up on the ripple fire portion for no reason. That was put to make sure people know that ripple fire works for BOTH shooting attacks.
You can still use Riptide Hailfire EVEN WITHOUT USING RIPPLE FIRE.
What then?

What you are basically saying is "if you don't use ripple fire you cannot use Riptide Hailfire" which is just not true.

Riptide has 2 weapons.
Riptide has a multi-tracker:
A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase.
A Riptide is a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature. Monstrous creatures by their very own rules can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

With no modifications at all a Riptide can fire three weapons, but it can only ever have two since that's all it's equipped with.

In the Movement phase you can declare if your going to use the Nova Reactor.

The Riptide Shas’vre can fire its twin-linked fusion blaster, its twin-linked plasma rifle, or its twin-linked smart missile system twice this turn. Even though these weapons are fired twice, each still only counts as firing one weapon.

So even if Ripple Fire somehow counted as a third weapon which it says it doesn't it would still be able to shoot it.

However the Riptide has to choose between using the Nova Charge profile of its Heavy Burst Canon/Ion Accelerator depending on load out or choose to use Ripple Fire.

Riptide Hailfire:
Once per battle, this Formation can make a Riptide Hailfire attack. If it does so, any units from this Formation that did not move in their Movement phase can shoot twice in their Shooting phase, making each attack at a different target if desired. Carry out the shooting attacks separately, one after the other. The unit cannot move in the Assault phase of the same turn. If a model uses a Ripple Fire in the turn in which it makes a Riptide Hailfire Attack, it can fire the relevant weapon four times rather than twice.

The Riptide can fire up to three guns on its attacks. So if it attacks again it can fire up to three. However that doesn't mean it can use both the Nova Profile for its main gun and the Ripple Fire effect at the same time.

So if you use this you can shoot both guns clearly. It says make an attack and then make an attack again. However if you use Ripple Fire you can't use the Novas Profile of the Heavy Burst Cannon/Ion Accelerator. If you use the profile of those two mentioned weapons you can't use Ripplefire.

The Ion Accelerator I should point out can overcharge and shoot twice nothing says it can't. Since it can fire normally, overcharge, or be nova charged depending on your personal tactical choice.

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptide has 2 weapons.
Riptide has a multi-tracker:
A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase.
A Riptide is a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature. Monstrous creatures by their very own rules can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

With no modifications at all a Riptide can fire three weapons, but it can only ever have two since that's all it's equipped with.

In the Movement phase you can declare if your going to use the Nova Reactor.

The Riptide Shas’vre can fire its twin-linked fusion blaster, its twin-linked plasma rifle, or its twin-linked smart missile system twice this turn. Even though these weapons are fired twice, each still only counts as firing one weapon.

So even if Ripple Fire somehow counted as a third weapon which it says it doesn't it would still be able to shoot it.

However the Riptide has to choose between using the Nova Charge profile of its Heavy Burst Canon/Ion Accelerator depending on load out or choose to use Ripple Fire.

Riptide Hailfire:
Once per battle, this Formation can make a Riptide Hailfire attack. If it does so, any units from this Formation that did not move in their Movement phase can shoot twice in their Shooting phase, making each attack at a different target if desired. Carry out the shooting attacks separately, one after the other. The unit cannot move in the Assault phase of the same turn. If a model uses a Ripple Fire in the turn in which it makes a Riptide Hailfire Attack, it can fire the relevant weapon four times rather than twice.

The Riptide can fire up to three guns on its attacks. So if it attacks again it can fire up to three. However that doesn't mean it can use both the Nova Profile for its main gun and the Ripple Fire effect at the same time.

So if you use this you can shoot both guns clearly. It says make an attack and then make an attack again. However if you use Ripple Fire you can't use the Novas Profile of the Heavy Burst Cannon/Ion Accelerator. If you use the profile of those two mentioned weapons you can't use Ripplefire.

The Ion Accelerator I should point out can overcharge and shoot twice nothing says it can't. Since it can fire normally, overcharge, or be nova charged depending on your personal tactical choice.

So your agreeing with basically everything I have been arguing for the past day that some people keep plugging their ears and saying "la la la I don't want to hear it" because they don't want the StormSurge to be good.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptide has 2 weapons.
Riptide has a multi-tracker:
A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase.
A Riptide is a Jet Pack Monstrous Creature. Monstrous creatures by their very own rules can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

With no modifications at all a Riptide can fire three weapons, but it can only ever have two since that's all it's equipped with.

In the Movement phase you can declare if your going to use the Nova Reactor.

The Riptide Shas’vre can fire its twin-linked fusion blaster, its twin-linked plasma rifle, or its twin-linked smart missile system twice this turn. Even though these weapons are fired twice, each still only counts as firing one weapon.

So even if Ripple Fire somehow counted as a third weapon which it says it doesn't it would still be able to shoot it.

However the Riptide has to choose between using the Nova Charge profile of its Heavy Burst Canon/Ion Accelerator depending on load out or choose to use Ripple Fire.

Riptide Hailfire:
Once per battle, this Formation can make a Riptide Hailfire attack. If it does so, any units from this Formation that did not move in their Movement phase can shoot twice in their Shooting phase, making each attack at a different target if desired. Carry out the shooting attacks separately, one after the other. The unit cannot move in the Assault phase of the same turn. If a model uses a Ripple Fire in the turn in which it makes a Riptide Hailfire Attack, it can fire the relevant weapon four times rather than twice.

The Riptide can fire up to three guns on its attacks. So if it attacks again it can fire up to three. However that doesn't mean it can use both the Nova Profile for its main gun and the Ripple Fire effect at the same time.

So if you use this you can shoot both guns clearly. It says make an attack and then make an attack again. However if you use Ripple Fire you can't use the Novas Profile of the Heavy Burst Cannon/Ion Accelerator. If you use the profile of those two mentioned weapons you can't use Ripplefire.

The Ion Accelerator I should point out can overcharge and shoot twice nothing says it can't. Since it can fire normally, overcharge, or be nova charged depending on your personal tactical choice.

So your agreeing with basically everything I have been arguing for the past day that some people keep plugging their ears and saying "la la la I don't want to hear it" because they don't want the StormSurge to be good.

Giving you some backup here. Also some clarifications for their sake. Though I'm sure you know. Oh also the Stormsurge one is more ambiguous because of poor as gak wording. I agree with you on it, but for different reasons and it's a whole other debate. I'm pointing out why this Riptide one is iron clad compared to the SS example.

I hope the people in denial about the GMC shooting don't have a coronary if they go to a tournament and face off against one that on turn two fires up to 12 different weapon shots at as many targets they feel like. While benefiting from marker lights. And buffmander buffs. I know the ones I go to have already allowed them. But I can already envision the pulsing stress veins.

I am rather surprised that no one has suggested an entirely RaW interpretation of the GMC Rules:

P.70, 'Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures (pg 67) that have the additional rules and exceptions given below.'

P.67 under SHOOTING, 'Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target.'

P.70 under SHOOTING, 'When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired.'

Taken together, if a GMC wants to 'focus fire' at a single target, it is limited to doing so with only 2 of its weapons. If it wants to use all of its weapons, then it can only target a unit with one weapon per.

Same restrictions with the Stabilizing Anchors. Fire 2 weapons at the same target or 1 weapon at each unit that you want to target. However, since it is essentially 2 shooting phases 'stacked' then the focused unit would be restricted by the MC rules or the one weapon to each unit would be able to be targeted by another weapon (or the same if you really wanted to).

**3rd edit** or you know, use the GMC shooting to target everything in sight then use the second firing from the anchors to focus fire the unit that you really want to kill. also, the second fire wouldn't be buffed by the combined fire rules (buffmander, +1BS) - as the anchors allow another firing after the first was resolved (though markerlights?).

And lastly, units of Stormsurges? can only one or two but not all have to deploy their anchors?

How is this even a debate? Go look up the definition of "each" if you really still think they can only fire 2 weapons...