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But it is playing with toys. Sure, the toys are "model kits", but are they really that different in nature from little green, plastic, mono-pose army men? And yeah, play is defined by a complex set of interlocking rules and a detailed understanding of discrete mathematics, but is it really that different from playing a game of Risk or Connect-4? It's a difference of scale, not a difference of nature.

 Sqorgar wrote:

At the end of the day, no matter how we like to dress the hobby up, it's playing with toys. I have absolutely no problem with that at all, so I don't feel the need to dress it up and feel important about it.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't 'feel important about it'; I just don't really want to play He-Man instead of Warhammer. Especially not at GW prices.

 Sqorgar wrote:

My guess is that you had your poop hammer moment with Age of Sigmar

You're absolutely right. I took one look at Age of Sigmar and went 'Yup. That's poop hammer."



Again, you're misunderstanding me. I don't feel that the names are 'beneath me' or 'too corny' - I feel that they're too corny for the kind of atmosphere the game wants to build, and it provides a jarring, immersion-breaking contrast in tone. Darth Sideous, Darth Tyrannus, and Darth Maul are excusable, because at the end of the day, Star Wars is lighthearted and a little goofy and not going into detailed descriptions of cannibalism.

Note - Ewoks eating Stormtroopers does not count as cannibalism, and all three of those characters are from the prequels, which get plenty of flak for being a little less mature than the older works...

And you can compare Bloodsecrators with Victor Fries when Age of Sigmar has anywhere near the rich background and quality storytelling that Batman does ;p Or, if you're looking at the Adam West version only - which I suspect you are, given the fact that you mentioned the glorious BAT SHARK REPELLENT - again, it's solely presented as a goofy, lighthearted, and comedic universe, and no one's asking you to shell out hundreds of dollars to enjoy it. Plus, they didn't take away Arkham City to give us Batman: The Movie.

If someone makes a joke and a whole bunch of people aren't laughing, maybe it's not that they think the joke is beneath them. Maybe the joke is just bad.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Exactly my point.

...how is that your point, in the context of the original statement?

 Spinner wrote:
If someone makes a joke and a whole bunch of people aren't laughing, maybe it's not that they think the joke is beneath them. Maybe the joke is just bad.

If one person refuses to laugh that is one thing, if no one is laughing then that is a whole different problem

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
If someone makes a joke and a whole bunch of people aren't laughing, maybe it's not that they think the joke is beneath them. Maybe the joke is just bad.

If one person refuses to laugh that is one thing, if no one is laughing then that is a whole different problem

I am still amazed you two are still taking into account what is being said, to be honest.

Spinner wrote:Honestly, if someone were to do a completely over the top and corny Conan pastiche wargame, I'd probably love it.

I don't know if it's over the top and corny, but...

I could be wrong, but wasn't it intended to be more generic than anything else? I've got the idea in my head, but I don't know for sure.

I think this guy has a good answer for you. For the hard of clicking...

...all of the fantasy rules I like best are generic: Song of Blades and Heroes, Lion/Dragon Rampant, Hordes of the Things. And, of course, the early iterations of Warhammer, in which the "Warhammer world" was only very faintly sketched, if at all; it was only there by implication (i.e. the bestiary implied a specific, if unstated, setting), I think, in the first edition.

...the joy of the tremendous scenarios for second-edition Warhammer was that they could be plonked down in any fantasy setting with minimal effort; the background pertained largely to the scenario itself rather than the wider world. So, steppe nomads attack a hobgoblin convoy; a usurper fights clansmen; a necromancer and ratmen clash at a remote monastery; orcs muster to raid the lands of men. And so on. Again, that seemed to be eroded as subsequent editions became more heavily invested in "the world".

Age of Sigmar seems, to me at least, to be the antithesis of all that. It's so specific in its troop types and (judging from the rules) has little obvious capacity for allowing, say, a troop of goblin archers mounted on giant lizards or even something as simple as orcish wolfriders. Warhammer 2nd embraced all that - as do the likes of SBH, LR/DR and HOTT. The one thing I do like about it (again, from reading the rules rather than playing) is the built-in facility for asymmetrical games, which seem to me A Very Good Thing.

jonolikespie wrote:You're completely missing my point, I'd be the last guy to claim there is anything wrong with playing with toys or 'childish' things, but if you're calling this hobby 'playing with toys' you're doing it a disservice.

I'm beginning to think it's a kind of sour-grapes defence rather than any real dismissal. People not convinced by your arguments that AoS' rules, fluff and minis aren't bettered by other games, background and models? Tar 'em all with the same brush.

Qualifying AoS as gritty is like saying the Saw movies are kid-friendly.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Qualifying AoS as gritty is like saying the Saw movies are kid-friendly.

And yet AoS seems to be trying to be gritty with the cannibalism thing, and the whole 'loss of self is worse than death' stuff with the Sigmarines...

You know very well a mention or two don't really qualify it all as gritty. But we'll see what else GW can try.

 Spinner wrote:

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't 'feel important about it'; I just don't really want to play He-Man instead of Warhammer. Especially not at GW prices.

And nobody is expecting you to. But let the people who want to play with He-Man enjoy themselves without you sitting in judgement going "pshaw. What a bunch of babies..."

Again, you're misunderstanding me. I don't feel that the names are 'beneath me' or 'too corny' - I feel that they're too corny for the kind of atmosphere the game wants to build, and it provides a jarring, immersion-breaking contrast in tone. Darth Sideous, Darth Tyrannus, and Darth Maul are excusable, because at the end of the day, Star Wars is lighthearted and a little goofy and not going into detailed descriptions of cannibalism.

But that's your hang up, not an innate crime against good taste. I keep bringing up Frazetta's Death Dealer painting. It's freaking called Death Dealer. The painting spawned books with titles like "Plague of Knives". There's one painting of Death Dealer standing above a bunch of naked zombie women while swinging a bunch of decapitated heads around by their hair. This is the aesthetic genre that AoS takes place in (Archaon on his horse is basically just the Death Dealer painting), and it fits it to a tee. This is heavy metal, man, and subtlety is somebody else's purview.

Note - Ewoks eating Stormtroopers does not count as cannibalism, and all three of those characters are from the prequels, which get plenty of flak for being a little less mature than the older works...

You think I can't find examples from the original trilogy? Stormtroopers are literally named after a rank in the Nazi military. The Death Star? A fat pilot named Porkins?

And you can compare Bloodsecrators with Victor Fries when Age of Sigmar has anywhere near the rich background and quality storytelling that Batman does ;p Or, if you're looking at the Adam West version only - which I suspect you are, given the fact that you mentioned the glorious BAT SHARK REPELLENT - again, it's solely presented as a goofy, lighthearted, and comedic universe, and no one's asking you to shell out hundreds of dollars to enjoy it. Plus, they didn't take away Arkham City to give us Batman: The Movie.

But that's my point. I'm a Batman fan because I like Batman in all his incarnations. I don't think any one version of Batman is the One True Form, and I can enjoy Frank Millar's Goddamn Batman, Dick Sprang's Giant Tuba Batman, and even Joel Schumacher's Nipple Batman for what they are. They are all Batman. And for the record, they did ask for hundreds of dollars for the blu ray set of Batman '66, which some people couldn't give them fast enough.

I am not mad that Age of Sigmar isn't something else. I am perfectly capable of enjoying it for what it is without getting hung up on what it isn't. It is Warhammer, just like the Old World is Warhammer. Neither one is better or worse than the other. They are simply different. I will say that I find the cosmic fantasy of AoS to be more refreshing than the Tolkienesque Old World, if for no other reason than it is considerably less commonplace.

If someone makes a joke and a whole bunch of people aren't laughing, maybe it's not that they think the joke is beneath them. Maybe the joke is just bad.

Or maybe it is a really funny joke, it was just made at an inappropriate time. Age of Sigmar is a good joke that was unfortunately told during a funeral.

O gawd am I really playing He-Man now?

 Bottle wrote:
O gawd am I really playing He-Man now?

Games Workshop wishes. Although, early He-Man, before there was a cartoon, had some pretty dark and awesome paintings done by this guy named Earl Norem (same guy who did the Mars Attacks cards for TOPPS) that could easily pass off as a Age of Sigmar illustration:


I think what AoS has in common with Masters of the Universe is that the design has an exaggerated sense of visual identity. Stuff like Conan or Frazetta paintings weren't intended to sell figures, so they didn't have this heightened thematic appearance that you really only find in stuff like comic books or toys. Like GI Joe didn't have a bunch of characters that all looked identical. There was one that looked like a sailor, one that changed color in water, one that was a ninja, one of them was a wrestler, one of them was a girl - and so on. Just like Batman fights a guy who uses ice, one who uses electricity, one who uses riddles, one who is a cat burgler, yada yada yada. I guess another example would be the themed gangs of The Warriors, or the alien races in Star Wars. It's all about marketing one's identity through outward appearance, which is why you have mummy undead factions and Aztec lizards.

I think Games Workshop is absolutely trying to capture that sort of marketing for Age of Sigmar (and 40k) that existed for GI Joe and Masters of the Universe. The cartoons which existed to sell toys, but which occasionally transcended their cynical existences to produce gold. So while GW may sell a game, it is trying to create an IP ecosystem built around the figures in the same way that, for example, Mattel turned a bunch of separate transforming robots from Japan into a singular, popular Transformers property. And I think GW is absolutely brilliant to do this.

Of the toys that did this, He-Man is probably the closest comparison to Age of Sigmar in terms of genre identity. Masters of the Universe also had a cosmic fantasy thing going on, and the Earl Norem paintings seem to fit right in with AoS's aesthetic (Castle Greyskull was probably created by a Khorne follower). But that's visually. The background material itself is way more grimdark. Not really sure where the narrative influences come from - certainly more science fiction than fantasy, with the multiple single-biome realms (planets) connected by stargates. It reminds me of something, but I'm not sure what yet.

If GW is smart they'll turn AoS into a multifaceted setting like they have done in the past.

The WHFB and 40K worlds allow for so many different focuses, players can choose what they want:

High fantasy - High Elf Dragons facing off against Chaos Warriors or Grey Knights battling Chaos Deamons in the warp.

Low fantasy - Mordhiem, Necromunda - humans against humans. Empire vs Bretonnia, Imperial Guard vs Sisters of Battle.

Horror - Empire vs Undead or Skaven, Space Hulk.

Good vs Evil - Eldar or Elves battling Deamons

Extreme Grey - Inquisitor, Grey Knights, civil wars, border princeses, Dwarven grudges, countless more.

That's why the game settings were so loved because there was something for everyone. Right now Age of Sigmar is very limited in its scope. I don't want to be playing spandex Mountain Dew he-man battles. I want my Empire dudes with beards no shoes finally standing up to the horrible doom looming over them. Before in WHFB I could focus on the parts of the setting I loved and forget about the rest (not caring about Elven melodrama for example). At the moment there is not much in the AoS setting I can enjoy. I willing to give it a chance, but as I said before it is getting frustrating waiting.

 Bottle wrote:
If GW is smart they'll turn AoS into a multifaceted setting like they have done in the past.

The WHFB and 40K worlds allow for so many different focuses, players can choose what they want:

High fantasy - High Elf Dragons facing off against Chaos Warriors or Grey Knights battling Chaos Deamons in the warp.

Low fantasy - Mordhiem, Necromunda - humans against humans. Empire vs Bretonnia, Imperial Guard vs Sisters of Battle.

Horror - Empire vs Undead or Skaven, Space Hulk.

Good vs Evil - Eldar or Elves battling Deamons

Extreme Grey - Inquisitor, Grey Knights, civil wars, border princeses, Dwarven grudges, countless more.

That's why the game settings were so loved because there was something for everyone. Right now Age of Sigmar is very limited in its scope. I don't want to be playing spandex Mountain Dew he-man battles. I want my Empire dudes with beards no shoes finally standing up to the horrible doom looming over them. Before in WHFB I could focus on the parts of the setting I loved and forget about the rest (not caring about Elven melodrama for example). At the moment there is not much in the AoS setting I can enjoy. I willing to give it a chance, but as I said before it is getting frustrating waiting.

I would love if the humans either revolted against Sigmar, had a settlement away from the celestial city, or at the least help a grudge against him. When Sigmar was a mortal he united the people of the Old World, but it could be interpreted that as a deity he has abandoned them twice now.

I wouldn't trust him, Karl Franz wouldn't leave his people to die while he fled! Sigmar just doesn't seem honorable in the least, he hides in his city while sending out stolen warriors to die over and over. It would be neat if someone from the forces of order didn't fully trust him or his intentions and opted to do something about it.

 pox wrote:
Sigmar just doesn't seem honorable in the least, he hides in his city while sending out stolen warriors to die over and over

Sigmar did fight in the age of chaos and did kick pretty much everyone's ass. He couldn't be everywhere, though pretty much every battle he has participated in has been won by the forces of the realms. With the loss of his hammer he retreated to a more strategic position, teleporting and directing his armies from his high point- logistics is a pretty important thing . De facto the stormcast aren't stolen - every one of them has reached to Sigmar before being snatched away (or so I remember).

@pox

Oh man, I agree so much! In my own AoS fluff I write for my guys I always paint Sigmar as a petty and jealous God. He seems obsessed with revenge and is all consumed by it, to the point where I imagine he neglects all his subjects bar the Stormcast.

Some contention within the forces of Order is exactly what we need. There is no way Humans, Elves and Dwarfs have lived in a single city in peace for an age.

 Bottle wrote:
@pox

Oh man, I agree so much! In my own AoS fluff I write for my guys I always paint Sigmar as a petty and jealous God. He seems obsessed with revenge and is all consumed by it, to the point where I imagine he neglects all his subjects bar the Stormcast.

Some contention within the forces of Order is exactly what we need. There is no way Humans, Elves and Dwarfs have lived in a single city in peace for an age.

Your degenerate, free thinking guys would get a lightning in the face the moment they get out of the city's sewers . They don't deserve living in the city where everyone is labouring 24/7 for the good of all . No talking at work

Haha, oh god. I stand corrected, GW. It's the ultimate grimdark!

In the Age of Sigmar, there is only war... and your favourite factions play no part... because they're all slaves or dead!

:'-(

 CoreCommander wrote:

 pox wrote:
Sigmar just doesn't seem honorable in the least, he hides in his city while sending out stolen warriors to die over and over

Sigmar did fight in the age of chaos and did kick pretty much everyone's ass. He couldn't be everywhere, though pretty much every battle he has participated in has been won by the forces of the realms. With the loss of his hammer he retreated to a more strategic position, teleporting and directing his armies from his high point- logistics is a pretty important thing . De facto the stormcast aren't stolen - every one of them has reached to Sigmar before being snatched away (or so I remember).

Well, he abandoned the world for it to die. I know I'm painting with a large brush here, but the world ended and he didn't. Then, when he found the nine realms, everything was fine till chaos started invading there. He saw he couldn't win AGAIN, so he left them to their fate and locked himself in the celestial city. (I think that's a part of Azryheim? I need to re-read the AoS books.)

While there, the dragon showed him how to forge sigmarite armor and make the Stormcast Eternals. (I might have that out of order.) Once ready they opened the gates and started to try and re-take the realms.

I meant they are stolen from Nagash and the realm of death, not that they are stolen "souls" from themselves. As far as any of them remember they have chosen the transformation, and continue to loyally serve Sigmar. (I like the one dudes who can only be made by calling out to Sigmar for revenge when dying in battle.)

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
If someone makes a joke and a whole bunch of people aren't laughing, maybe it's not that they think the joke is beneath them. Maybe the joke is just bad.

If one person refuses to laugh that is one thing, if no one is laughing then that is a whole different problem

I am still amazed you two are still taking into account what is being said, to be honest.

In fairness, I'm appreciating the chance to examine why I can let Star Wars get away with Darth Maul but Age of Sigmar loses me when it brings up Bloodbound Bloodsecrators (maybe the repetition has an effect?)

Clearly, neither side here is going to convince the other, but I think we're doing a decent job giving points and counterpoints. It just so happens that we're right.

 Vermis wrote:

Spinner wrote:Honestly, if someone were to do a completely over the top and corny Conan pastiche wargame, I'd probably love it.

I don't know if it's over the top and corny, but...

Is...is that a narrative-based skirmish game designed around scenarios?!

I hear from a few people that there's a market for that sort of thing.

Thanks for confirming what I'd thought about earlier editions. I was worried I had gotten it conflated with Chainmail in my head.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't 'feel important about it'; I just don't really want to play He-Man instead of Warhammer. Especially not at GW prices.

And nobody is expecting you to. But let the people who want to play with He-Man enjoy themselves without you sitting in judgement going "pshaw. What a bunch of babies..."

Whoa. Whoa whoa whoa. Where did I say that? I've got no problem with people playing He-Man. Just because I don't like the game or the backstory or a good chunk of the models or the corporate choices doesn't mean I'm judging the players.

You're hitting the 'people who don't like Age of Sigmar think AoS players are childish' angle pretty hard. I haven't seen a whole lot of that around since the initial uproar died down; was that, perhaps, your poop hammer moment when it came to criticism of the game?

 Sqorgar wrote:
But that's your hang up, not an innate crime against good taste. I keep bringing up Frazetta's Death Dealer painting. It's freaking called Death Dealer. The painting spawned books with titles like "Plague of Knives". There's one painting of Death Dealer standing above a bunch of naked zombie women while swinging a bunch of decapitated heads around by their hair. This is the aesthetic genre that AoS takes place in (Archaon on his horse is basically just the Death Dealer painting), and it fits it to a tee. This is heavy metal, man, and subtlety is somebody else's purview.

Never said it was anything but my own opinion - in fact, I went out of my way to state that that was the way I personally felt. Just seems like a lot of other people seem to feel the same way.

"Death Dealer", by the way, is a much cooler name than anything I've seen in Age of Sigmar. Bet you wouldn't catch that guy fighting an Ogor.

 Sqorgar wrote:

You think I can't find examples from the original trilogy? Stormtroopers are literally named after a rank in the Nazi military. The Death Star? A fat pilot named Porkins?

Again, I didn't exclude the original trilogy from what I said; it also gave us Greedo the bounty hunter. I just thought it was amusing that all the names you pulled were from the prequels.

 Sqorgar wrote:
But that's my point. I'm a Batman fan because I like Batman in all his incarnations. I don't think any one version of Batman is the One True Form, and I can enjoy Frank Millar's Goddamn Batman, Dick Sprang's Giant Tuba Batman, and even Joel Schumacher's Nipple Batman for what they are. They are all Batman. And for the record, they did ask for hundreds of dollars for the blu ray set of Batman '66, which some people couldn't give them fast enough.

You've obviously got broader taste than I do; I can't go near Batman and Robin without a hefty dose of alcohol and a quality drinking game, and All-Star Batman...no thanks. I do see that blu ray set; it's a limited edition with all the episodes, plus an episode guide, trading cards, a Batmobile...in other words, a collector's item that you don't need to enjoy Adam West hopping around while sound effects pop out of the screen. Not saying they aren't all Batman, but I am saying that I don't enjoy all sorts of Batman, and if they stopped making the ones I like to focus on ones I didn't like - say, by having The Goddamn Batman blow up various Bat-Caves - I would probably stop enjoying Batman stuff.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I will say that I find the cosmic fantasy of AoS to be more refreshing than the Tolkienesque Old World, if for no other reason than it is considerably less commonplace.

Really? Because it kinda reminds me of what I remember of the Warcraft mythos. No idea what they're up to these days, but you've got portals, you've got chunky guys in giant pauldrons, daemons being driven back, an on-again off-again alliance with necromantic types that originally caused major problems for the protagonists.

...I just suggested that Games Workshop took inspiration from Warcraft. I feel dirty inside.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Or maybe it is a really funny joke, it was just made at an inappropriate time. Age of Sigmar is a good joke that was unfortunately told during a funeral.

At the expense of the deceased and all of his friends, yes.

 pox wrote:

I would love if the humans either revolted against Sigmar, had a settlement away from the celestial city, or at the least help a grudge against him. When Sigmar was a mortal he united the people of the Old World, but it could be interpreted that as a deity he has abandoned them twice now.

I wouldn't trust him, Karl Franz wouldn't leave his people to die while he fled! Sigmar just doesn't seem honorable in the least, he hides in his city while sending out stolen warriors to die over and over. It would be neat if someone from the forces of order didn't fully trust him or his intentions and opted to do something about it.

Yeah, Age of Sigmar's version of Sigmar is kind of an entire box of tools (not just the hammer!).

@pox
It might be a little harder to die when you're a god . The fact that Sigmar survived the destruction doesn't mean he abandoned the old world. Didn't the end times end with him battling Archaon at the heart of the new vortex?
The Chaos powers might be on a different level than that of Sigmar and the incarnates. After all, the current gods of the realms all were mortals once and became divine when becoming the vessel of a portion of chaos energy (the winds of magic). The Chaos powers on the other hand were "unmade", eternal and ever existing yada yada. They were never mortal, reside in the heart of their dominion, in the realm of chaos, are omnipotent within their boundaries, personalize different mortal aspects and principles and so on and so on. They and the new gods are fundamentally different and you aren't just to expect a fair fight between them IMO . On top of that SIgmar's alliance was shattered from within by bitter betrayal (gasp) !

the AoS setting is no less gritty than a Dragonlance or Drittz novel, in my opinion, both settings that i always enjoyed...
in comparison to the Xanth novels from when i was a kid, or the Harry Potter novels now days, even though they are fun worlds to explore, they don't have the same sense of danger or depravity...

when WFB came along, i was drawn in by the setting, because everyone was mad as a hatter, and the forces of destruction were on the move...
AoS is a continuation of that setting...
i get that it isn't what everyone wanted, but that doesn't mean i can't enjoy it for what it is...
Khorne is still taking skulls, Nurgle is still corrupting things, Tzeentch is still scheming, and Slaanesh is locked up, slumbering, gorged on skulls...
the bad guys control most of the realms, and the good guys need to get it together and take the power back...

in four months, we have learned about the situation with the Chaos Gods, seen the Trees in action, learned about the Bloodbound, Stormcast Eternals, the Lizzies, and the Plague Rats...
seems like a good start...

the Old World still lives on in the novels and Army Books, as far as I'm concerned, and the End Times was a hell of a send off...
truth be told, though, i would have been happy if they had made Age of Sigmar actually set in the age of Sigmar, and given us barbarians versus skellies...
the Lizzies were around, ditto the Dwarves and Elves, the Skaven and the Chaos Gods...
that would have been great to see minis for, and they could have done a very similar release style, with simple reissues of boxes with round bases for just as many of the armies...

a War of the Beard expansion could have happened,or the civil war in Khemri. or the Sundering...
as far as i'm concerned, any of those things would still be cool...
i would be cool with Time of Legends minis...

next you are going to tell me that a few characters left over from the Old World doesn't really qualify as Warhammer, an opinion that i would disagree with...
different strokes for different folks...

cheers
jah

The problem with AOS is a simple but vital concept.
Tone.
AOS can't decide what tone it wants. He-Man is fine, but you can't have He-Man killing children to stop a plague. You can't have Cthulhu saying fart jokes. It's one of the main problems with the Star Wars prequels, was that it couldn't decide on a tone. Neither can AOS.
Is it a light skirmish game? Is it fun but cheesy? Dark and gritty? What are they trying for?
The problem is, whatever tone AOS is, isn't at all what WHFB was and that is yet another major change that further alienated people.
AOS is indeed an inappropriate joke at a funeral.

@MWH: safe to say that is YOUR problem with AoS, but not everyone shares your opinion...
i find it hard to agree that the tone of AoS isn't at all similar to WFB, since it is a continuation of the story, but i can understand why it isn't everyone's cup of tea...
then again, i am a big fan of the Prequels...

for me, the visuals are the most important (which is what i liked about the Prequels), followed by the story...
i can overlook story pretty easily, as long as the visuals grab me, but then i don't have an issue with the story of AoS, so that helps...
most of the the AoS minis have been stunners, in my opinion, and i am enjoying a lot of the new art...
i like the epic Asgardian aspect of the new setting, and look forward to see where it is going...

cheers
jah

So after three pages and eighty posts? I can see a theme here, people who like it aos that is, like they vagueness of the lore and dont really care bout a story . They like the idea of new models that you make your background for?

While those who hate it wanted more to the background and enjoy more of a placed setting. With character development. But it doesnt suprise me even video games and novels now a days lack that.

OgreChubbs wrote:
So after three pages and eighty posts? I can see a theme here, people who like it aos that is, like they vagueness of the lore and dont really care bout a story . They like the idea of new models that you make your background for?

While those who hate it wanted more to the background and enjoy more of a placed setting. With character development. But it doesnt suprise me even video games and novels now a days lack that.

I daresay that's the crux of it.

 jonolikespie wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
So after three pages and eighty posts? I can see a theme here, people who like it aos that is, like they vagueness of the lore and dont really care bout a story . They like the idea of new models that you make your background for?

While those who hate it wanted more to the background and enjoy more of a placed setting. With character development. But it doesnt suprise me even video games and novels now a days lack that.

I daresay that's the crux of it.

fair enough, to an extent...

@Ogre: the only problem with your theory, for me, is that i never said that i like the vagueness of anything...
the realms are being developed, and the fiction is full of specifics...
i don't have an army, or a desire to create backstory for my minis, but instead like to bring characters and events from the fiction to life in miniature form...
i would say it is not full of enough specifics for those who are not fans, or even worse, hasn't covered their army yet...
i would say that is more of a problem with the desire for instant gratification and a lack of patience...
the digital instant access age is not working in AoS's favor, that's for sure...
luckily, i can still enjoy the Old World, and paint characters from it...


second, i care about the story, i am just not living and dying with the story...
i'm not the writer, so i am not invested in the choices that the author makes...
i either like it, or i don't, but i am not going to feel like an author's, or a company's, choice are a "slap in the face" as many of the WFB fans have called AoS...
i certainly wouldn't own nearly every book GW has published over the last 30 years if i didn't care about the story...
when i say that i can overlook story easily, i mean that i can buy a mini without being invested in the story beforehand...
if the story turns out to be to my taste, that is a huge bonus...

cheers
jah

OgreChubbs wrote:
So after three pages and eighty posts? I can see a theme here, people who like it aos that is, like they vagueness of the lore and dont really care bout a story . They like the idea of new models that you make your background for?

While those who hate it wanted more to the background and enjoy more of a placed setting. With character development. But it doesnt suprise me even video games and novels now a days lack that.

So, pro AOS people like flash and sparkles and anti AOS people like substance?

@MWH: it is possible to like both at the same time...

cheers
jah

 Spinner wrote:
At the expense of the deceased and all of his friends, yes.

After having had played a vital part in his murder and getting away with it due to some top notch lawyers.

OgreChubbs wrote:
So after three pages and eighty posts? I can see a theme here, people who like it aos that is, like they vagueness of the lore and dont really care bout a story .

Well, no... The storyline is a big reason I am enjoying AoS.