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Since C'tan are so evil, just out of curiosity, could they somehow link to Chaos??

Wat.

C'tan are literally anti warp.

C'tan have no presence in the warp at all. They are immune to psychic powers.

/thread.

C'tan are combosed of purely physical energy. So, no.

keithktam wrote:
Since C'tan are so evil, just out of curiosity, could they somehow link to Chaos??

Why do you say they're evil?

C'tan are enlightened pure energy beings who feed from stars.

C'tan are no more evil than viruses are evil. They are a force of nature and they are everything that the Warp is not.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
C'tan are no more evil than viruses are evil. They are a force of nature and they are everything that the Warp is not.

Of course, they're completely sentient, so, you know...

Actually, the C'Tan are *not* immune to psychic powers. That's why they needed the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones. The Warp is actually an anathema to them.

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, the C'Tan are *not* immune to psychic powers. That's why they needed the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones. The Warp is actually an anathema to them.

C'tan and the old one.... a lot of lore i have to catch up

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, the C'Tan are *not* immune to psychic powers. That's why they needed the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones. The Warp is actually an anathema to them.

Isn't it just that they couldn't interact with the old ones in any way without the Necrontyrs ?

Not that they couldn't, they specifically went out of their way to avoid doing so, because the power of the Warp was "anathema" to them, being entirely physical-reality beings.

The reverse is sort of true in "modern" 40k. The Chaos Gods, being comprised 100% of Warp Juice, cannot enter Realspace "physically", they have to act through mortal agents.

Basically, you can feth a C'Tan up real bad with enough soul-dakka. This is further evidenced by the fact that the Emperor beat the piss out of the Void Dragon while being equipped with Iron Age equipment and a horse (which he then used to drag said piss-beaten C'Tan to Mars).

 Psienesis wrote:
Not that they couldn't, they specifically went out of their way to avoid doing so, because the power of the Warp was "anathema" to them, being entirely physical-reality beings.

The reverse is sort of true in "modern" 40k. The Chaos Gods, being comprised 100% of Warp Juice, cannot enter Realspace "physically", they have to act through mortal agents.

Basically, you can feth a C'Tan up real bad with enough soul-dakka. This is further evidenced by the fact that the Emperor beat the piss out of the Void Dragon while being equipped with Iron Age equipment and a horse (which he then used to drag said piss-beaten C'Tan to Mars).

You can do anything with a space horse.


C'tan are basically galactus.

It's also why one of the Old One's anti-c'tan superweapons was a battery of star-blowing up warp cannons - now called the Blackstone Fortresses.

@ Psienesis
Are you sure you know what that word means? Because I do not think it means what you think it means.

I just did some quick research,
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anathema
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anathema
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema
, and anatheme seems to mean 'strongly disliked.'
Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me, and I have never heard anything that implies that great deals of warp energy are more effective against C'tan than lots of non-warp energy. The fact it was the necrons and not the old ones that sharded the C'tan seems to support that.

Also the Emperor beat a starved shard of the Void Dragon (not the whole Void Dragon), and almost lost. And we are talking about a dude that can FLY TO MARS ON A HORSE!

@ locarno24
Considering that the Old Ones had the Blackstone Fortresses and still lost to the necrons and C'tan, it doesn't seem as though the warp energies from the Blackstone Fortresses were particularly effective. It may be the Blackstone Fortresses fired warp energy because the Old Ones built them and that's what Old One weapons fired, and not because any special vulnerability to wrap energy the C'tan may or may not have had.

anathema, n.

Pronunciation: /əˈnæθɪmə/
Forms: Pl. anathemas; also, in sense 3, anaˈthemata.
Etymology: < Latin anathema... ( an excommunicated person, also the curse of excommunication, < Greek ἀνάθεμα , originally ‘a thing devoted,’ but in later usage ‘a thing devoted to evil, an accursed thing’ (see Rom. ix. 3). Originally a variant of ἀνάθημα an offering, a thing set up (to the gods), n. of product < ἀνατιθέναι to set up, < ἀνά up + τιθέναι (stem θε- ) to place. Compare anathem n., and anatheme n.(Show Less)
I. From ecclesiastical Greek and Latin.

1. Anything accursed, or consigned to damnation. Also quasi-adj. Accursed, consigned to perdition.
2. The formal act, or formula, of consigning to damnation.
a. The curse of God.
b. The great curse of the church, cutting off a person from the communion of the church visible, and formally handing him over to Satan; or denouncing any doctrine or practice as damnable.
c. Any denunciation or imprecation of divine wrath against alleged impiety, heresy, etc.
d. A curse or imprecation generally.

Draft additions March 2007


In predicative use: loathsome, repugnant, or extremely objectionable to.


http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/7144?redirectedFrom=anathema#eid

The Warp and the C'tan not mixing is pretty outdated at this stage. They ate the souls of the Necrontyr to power up, and they can hang around in the Warp. Their origins are also much more vague.
Additionally in the end it was the Necrons that defeated, and even killed one of, them.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
@ Psienesis
...Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me...

OT: WHO DISLIKES BACON?! As an American no less..... somewhere an eagle is crying for you.....

On Topic: I thought the C'tan didnt exist in the warp so they couldnt become corrupted by chaos or anything like that. On the "are C'tan evil" thing, good and evil are just a matter of perspective, to the chaos gods they arent evil, they are just a reflection of reality, to us they are evil because in our view they represent things that are counterproductive to our way of life.

NL_Cirrus wrote:
Also the Emperor beat a starved shard of the Void Dragon (not the whole Void Dragon), and almost lost. And we are talking about a dude that can FLY TO MARS ON A HORSE!

@ locarno24
Considering that the Old Ones had the Blackstone Fortresses and still lost to the necrons and C'tan, it doesn't seem as though the warp energies from the Blackstone Fortresses were particularly effective. It may be the Blackstone Fortresses fired warp energy because the Old Ones built them and that's what Old One weapons fired, and not because any special vulnerability to wrap energy the C'tan may or may not have had.

Okay, first of all, there were less than ten Blackstone Fortresses. If you honestly think that six superweapons are enough to win a galaxy-spanning war, then you need to reboot your logic processors (if your brain even possesses any).

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
@ Psienesis
...Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me...

lel, my username on a lot of websites is dah baconatah, and every calls me bacon, so, for a second there, I thought you were saying that I wouldn't be an effective weapon against you. Which is bullshonkery, because I would make the ultimate club with which to bludgeon you to death. My feet are the handle and my face is the heaviest part!

Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me, and I have never heard anything that implies that great deals of warp energy are more effective against C'tan than lots of non-warp energy. The fact it was the necrons and not the old ones that sharded the C'tan seems to support that.

That is because you have never encountered a Bacomancer, who can accelerate bacon bits to lethal velocity with their mind.

The Old Ones didn't shard the C'Tan because the Necrons killed the Old Ones in the Warp, where the C'Tan could not go, before the opportunity presented itself.

 Psienesis wrote:

Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me, and I have never heard anything that implies that great deals of warp energy are more effective against C'tan than lots of non-warp energy. The fact it was the necrons and not the old ones that sharded the C'tan seems to support that.

That is because you have never encountered a Bacomancer, who can accelerate bacon bits to lethal velocity with their mind.

The Old Ones didn't shard the C'Tan because the Necrons killed the Old Ones in the Warp, where the C'Tan could not go, before the opportunity presented itself.

But C'tan can go into the Warp.
And were did you read that the Old Ones were in the Warp and that the Necrons went in after them?
And also the C'tan did fight the Old Ones, so there was plenty of opportunity.

Animus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me, and I have never heard anything that implies that great deals of warp energy are more effective against C'tan than lots of non-warp energy. The fact it was the necrons and not the old ones that sharded the C'tan seems to support that.

That is because you have never encountered a Bacomancer, who can accelerate bacon bits to lethal velocity with their mind.

The Old Ones didn't shard the C'Tan because the Necrons killed the Old Ones in the Warp, where the C'Tan could not go, before the opportunity presented itself.

But C'tan can go into the Warp.
And were did you read that the Old Ones were in the Warp and that the Necrons went in after them?
And also the C'tan did fight the Old Ones, so there was plenty of opportunity.

Old Ones did have cities in the Warp (the Webway) but they basically lived half-in half-out, so most of them lived in the Materium.

Animus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Last time I checked strongly disliked =/= lethal to, I strongly dislike bacon but that doesn't make it an effective weapon against me, and I have never heard anything that implies that great deals of warp energy are more effective against C'tan than lots of non-warp energy. The fact it was the necrons and not the old ones that sharded the C'tan seems to support that.

That is because you have never encountered a Bacomancer, who can accelerate bacon bits to lethal velocity with their mind.

The Old Ones didn't shard the C'Tan because the Necrons killed the Old Ones in the Warp, where the C'Tan could not go, before the opportunity presented itself.

But C'tan can go into the Warp.
And were did you read that the Old Ones were in the Warp and that the Necrons went in after them?
And also the C'tan did fight the Old Ones, so there was plenty of opportunity.

Codex: Necrons.

The whole reason the C'Tan used the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones was because the Necrontyr could follow the Old Ones into the Warp to fight them, where the C'Tan could not.

We are unfortunately required to rely on the word of the C'Tan known as The Deceiver to believe that, prior to the Necron/C'Tan alliance, the C'Tan had previously fought the Old Ones. This has very obvious problems.

 dusara217 wrote:
Old Ones did have cities in the Warp (the Webway) but they basically lived half-in half-out, so most of them lived in the Materium.

The Webway isn't the Warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons.

Not that I can see, where about?

 Psienesis wrote:
The whole reason the C'Tan used the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones was because the Necrontyr could follow the Old Ones into the Warp to fight them, where the C'Tan could not.

Do you have a source for this? Because:

624.M36 A Blade out of Time
Although impossible to fix in time, this seems to be the first recorded instance where Cypher
is seen carrying the C’tan phase knife – a weapon similar to the C’tan phase sword used by
the Callidus Assassins. The blade of the knife can phase in and out of real-space by
dimensional realignment, so it is capable of bypassing armour and protective fields. The knife
was at some point lost in battle with the C’tan known as the Deceiver in the opening stages of
the 13th Black Crusade, however, the battle occurred in the Warp and seems to have been
subject to a strange loop in either the time continuum or reality itself. Cypher is most often
seen without the blade, but true to its name, the knife occasionally phases back into being
beneath his cloak.

Suggests otherwise.

 Psienesis wrote:
We are unfortunately required to rely on the word of the C'Tan known as The Deceiver to believe that, prior to the Necron/C'Tan alliance, the C'Tan had previously fought the Old Ones. This has very obvious problems.

But the C'tan fought the Old Ones in the War in Heaven regardless of whether they fought them before or not. The C'tan expending their soul-fueled powers in combat with the Old Ones is what allowed the Necrons to shatter the C'tan as easily as they did.

Hyper-phasic tools and abilities of the Necrons, and the C'Tan, are well-recorded, but these do not utilize the Warp, it's more a quantum string-theory situation, many varied reflections of a physical reality. These are dimensions that Mankind has little understanding or knowledge of, and so would probably refer to them entirely as "The Warp". Codex: Necrons describes them as "new flavors of reality to corrupt" from the point-of-view of Daemons.

A C'Tan Phase Knife is also not a C'Tan, or even a C'Tan shard, it's just a bit of its Necrodermis shell, which is why you cannot attack a C'Tan with one (the weapon is just reabsorbed into its body, and you lose it.)

Easily? Fighting the C'Tan cost the Necrons billions of lives. There has never been another war in galactic history to rival the War in Heaven.

Do you have a source for this? Because:

Codex: Necrons, pg 6-7. Goes on further to mention that it is the Necrons who finally breach the Web-Way to attack the Old Ones directly. As the C'Tan were capable of razing planets and bending reality to their will, why would they need robo-mummies to break open the Web-Way? Again, however, we are required to rely on the words of the Deceiver to understand that the C'Tan had previously fought the Old Ones. It is the sole source of that story, related to the Silent King prior to bio-transference, and was possibly feeding into his fears and ego, as the Necrons *had* fought the Old Ones and lost.

Animus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Old Ones did have cities in the Warp (the Webway) but they basically lived half-in half-out, so most of them lived in the Materium.

The Webway isn't the Warp.

The Webway is a system of subdimensions within the Warp; a highway, if you will.

Lexicanu, 1D4Chan, and Wiki (in order of most to least reliable) all support this statement. As does the fact that, when Magnus breached the Imperial Webway, it allowed Daemons to enter it (and consequently prevented the Emperor from doing much during the Horus Heresy).

Aren't the C'tan kind of like the Ori from Stargate? They aren't exactly evil, but they use others as a means to their own end?

 Psienesis wrote:
Hyper-phasic tools and abilities of the Necrons, and the C'Tan, are well-recorded, but these do not utilize the Warp, it's more a quantum string-theory situation, many varied reflections of a physical reality. These are dimensions that Mankind has little understanding or knowledge of, and so would probably refer to them entirely as "The Warp". Codex: Necrons describes them as "new flavors of reality to corrupt" from the point-of-view of Daemons.

A C'Tan Phase Knife is also not a C'Tan, or even a C'Tan shard, it's just a bit of its Necrodermis shell, which is why you cannot attack a C'Tan with one (the weapon is just reabsorbed into its body, and you lose it.)

Easily? Fighting the C'Tan cost the Necrons billions of lives. There has never been another war in galactic history to rival the War in Heaven.

It is explicitly stated that the battle between Cypher and the C'tan happened in the Warp.
And yes, comparatively easy as compared to the soul-charged C'tan.

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons, pg 6-7. Goes on further to mention that it is the Necrons who finally breach the Web-Way to attack the Old Ones directly. As the C'Tan were capable of razing planets and bending reality to their will, why would they need robo-mummies to break open the Web-Way?

Did you miss the fact that the Burning One, a C'tan, was the one who showed the the Necrons how to enter the webway? And that he breached the webway because he wanted to burn things in there?

 Psienesis wrote:
Again, however, we are required to rely on the words of the Deceiver to understand that the C'Tan had previously fought the Old Ones. It is the sole source of that story, related to the Silent King prior to bio-transference, and was possibly feeding into his fears and ego, as the Necrons *had* fought the Old Ones and lost.

No. We don't need to listen to the Deceiver about that a all. The C'tan and Old Ones fought during the War in Heaven after the Necrons had undergone biotransferance.

 dusara217 wrote:

The Webway is a system of subdimensions within the Warp; a highway, if you will.

Lexicanu, 1D4Chan, and Wiki (in order of most to least reliable) all support this statement. As does the fact that, when Magnus breached the Imperial Webway, it allowed Daemons to enter it (and consequently prevented the Emperor from doing much during the Horus Heresy).

None of that changes that the Webway is not the Warp. It is its own dimension, often depicted as with the Warp or between the Warp and the physical universe. You can make holes in it which lead to the Warp but the same can be said of the physical universe.

Animus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Hyper-phasic tools and abilities of the Necrons, and the C'Tan, are well-recorded, but these do not utilize the Warp, it's more a quantum string-theory situation, many varied reflections of a physical reality. These are dimensions that Mankind has little understanding or knowledge of, and so would probably refer to them entirely as "The Warp". Codex: Necrons describes them as "new flavors of reality to corrupt" from the point-of-view of Daemons.

A C'Tan Phase Knife is also not a C'Tan, or even a C'Tan shard, it's just a bit of its Necrodermis shell, which is why you cannot attack a C'Tan with one (the weapon is just reabsorbed into its body, and you lose it.)

Easily? Fighting the C'Tan cost the Necrons billions of lives. There has never been another war in galactic history to rival the War in Heaven.

It is explicitly stated that the battle between Cypher and the C'tan happened in the Warp.
And yes, comparatively easy as compared to the soul-charged C'tan.

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons, pg 6-7. Goes on further to mention that it is the Necrons who finally breach the Web-Way to attack the Old Ones directly. As the C'Tan were capable of razing planets and bending reality to their will, why would they need robo-mummies to break open the Web-Way?

Did you miss the fact that the Burning One, a C'tan, was the one who showed the the Necrons how to enter the webway? And that he breached the webway because he wanted to burn things in there?

 Psienesis wrote:
Again, however, we are required to rely on the words of the Deceiver to understand that the C'Tan had previously fought the Old Ones. It is the sole source of that story, related to the Silent King prior to bio-transference, and was possibly feeding into his fears and ego, as the Necrons *had* fought the Old Ones and lost.

No. We don't need to listen to the Deceiver about that a all. The C'tan and Old Ones fought during the War in Heaven after the Necrons had undergone biotransferance.

 dusara217 wrote:

The Webway is a system of subdimensions within the Warp; a highway, if you will.

Lexicanu, 1D4Chan, and Wiki (in order of most to least reliable) all support this statement. As does the fact that, when Magnus breached the Imperial Webway, it allowed Daemons to enter it (and consequently prevented the Emperor from doing much during the Horus Heresy).

None of that changes that the Webway is not the Warp. It is its own dimension, often depicted as with the Warp or between the Warp and the physical universe. You can make holes in it which lead to the Warp but the same can be said of the physical universe.

The Webway is a subdivision of the Warp. If it were completely seperate, then it wouldn't have mattered that MAgnus's message went through it, as it wouldn't have been there to be punctured in the first place.

It is explicitly stated that the battle between Cypher and the C'tan happened in the Warp.
And yes, comparatively easy as compared to the soul-charged C'tan.

Which means nothing. Everything "reported" in 40k fluff is true, or might be true, or may have once been true, is a myth, a legend, a rumor, or a complete fabrication. "Unreliable Narration" is how 40K is done, which is why I keep harping on the point that the only source we have for a pre-Necron fight between the Old Ones and the C'Tan is a C'Tan called "The Deceiver". This is a mofo that lies so g-d much it became its nome de plume!

So the fact that the story of the fight between Cypher and The Deceiver happened in the Warp doesn't mean anything, because we're not told who's supposedly recounting this story to us, the reader. Since Cypher doesn't share tales of his exploits with others, and the Deceiver cannot be trusted to buy an apple from, who is relating this epic story of war? How would they know the difference between the Warp and a hyperphasic reality? Would they know Cypher if he sat on them? How do they know what a C'Tan Phase Knife looks like?

Remember, the Imperium's population is primarily illiterate techno-peasants, fond of fairy tales and morality plays, living in a system that makes Orwell's IngSoc look like a liberal utopia. So, again, who is recounting the tale to GW who is then passing it along to us?

No. We don't need to listen to the Deceiver about that a all. The C'tan and Old Ones fought during the War in Heaven after the Necrons had undergone biotransferance.

I'm talking about prior to the WiH, when the Old Ones and the C'Tan supposedly fought, millions of years before the Necrontyr (the first galactic civilization, near as can be told) existed.

We have only the Deceiver's word on this, which was used to cement the alliance between the Necrontyr and the C'Tan, which then led to the Bio-transference of the Necrontyr species.

we're not told who's supposedly recounting this story to us

That is what makes it reliable