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Could do with help clarifying this subject please,

A squad of ravenwing bikes comes under fire from bolt guns and elects to jink
After wounds then can they take there re-rollable 4+ cover save or forced to take a power armour save of 3+ due to the best available save rule.

If so I cannot see a point in having the ability to jink such attacks.
Thanks

Mellamoluigi wrote:
Could do with help clarifying this subject please,

A squad of ravenwing bikes comes under fire from bolt guns and elects to jink
After wounds then can they take there re-rollable 4+ cover save or forced to take a power armour save of 3+ due to the best available save rule.

If so I cannot see a point in having the ability to jink such attacks.
Thanks

I remember this debate,

some will say 3+ as 3 is better than 4, while others will argue a 4+ rerollable is actually better than a 3+ because you're more likely to succeed.

But surely if they jinked it automatically negates the armour saves and becomes a jink cover save irrespective of the ap of the weapon fired.

Mellamoluigi wrote:
But surely if they jinked it automatically negates the armour saves and becomes a jink cover save irrespective of the ap of the weapon fired.

No. Jink does not negate the armour save and there is nothing to indicate anything other than the numeric value is used to determine what a model's 'best save' is.

It depends on how you interpret "must use the best save available".

3+ is better than 4+.

The question is weather one save being rerollable makes one save "better" for this situation or if best only means "lowest value to succeed on a D6".

I am inclined to go with lowest value on D6 and not best mathematical chance for success.

There is nothing that provides a requirement for using a certain type of Save. The only rule that requires using a specific level of Save is of the Cover Save, which specifies that if you have 2 or more Cover Saves, you must always use the best one. There are also rules that will deny the use of the Save, but that's not the same thing.

Charistoph wrote:
There is nothing that provides a requirement for using a certain type of Save.

Actually there is. Page 38 - "Models with More than One Save" states that if a model has more than one type of save it must always use the best available save. It gives an example of a space marine captain with power armour, force field, and being in cover followed by "a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save". The rules covering multiple cover saves comes afterwards.

In my opinion re-rolling is not considered in this calculation. If re-rolling were considered in whether or not one save is better than another, then no model in the game would be able to have a 2+ re-rollable armour save, because the rules for armour saves (p8) states that "a model can never have an armour save better than 2+". If determining which save is better accounted for re-rolls, then the rules would disallow re-rollable 2+ armour saves, since they would be "better" than a 2+.

Bojazz wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
There is nothing that provides a requirement for using a certain type of Save.

Actually there is. Page 38 - "Models with More than One Save" states that if a model has more than one type of save it must always use the best available save. It gives an example of a space marine captain with power armour, force field, and being in cover followed by "a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save". The rules covering multiple cover saves comes afterwards.

In my opinion re-rolling is not considered in this calculation. If re-rolling were considered in whether or not one save is better than another, then no model in the game would be able to have a 2+ re-rollable armour save, because the rules for armour saves (p8) states that "a model can never have an armour save better than 2+". If determining which save is better accounted for re-rolls, then the rules would disallow re-rollable 2+ armour saves, since they would be "better" than a 2+.

Reread your misquote.

"if a model has more than one type of save it must always use the best available save" is not the same as "a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

For an example of requiring the best available save, read the next paragraph, "If a model can benefit from different types of cover, for example, being behind a barricade (4+ cover save) that is also within a Citadel Wood (5+ cover save), the model uses the best cover save available (in this case 4+)."

Having the advantage of always doing something is not a requirement of always doing something. Even more in fact, is that the second paragraph is completely pointless if one must always use a best save already.

I think that this change from 5th Edition (it was in 6th Edition, too, with the exact same wording) was deliberate so people COULD choose to use the Save they wanted to use, such as a slightly worse, but rerollable, Save. But that's just guessing at Intentions.

Page 38 - "Models with More than One Save" states that if a model has more than one type of save it must always use the best available save.

a 3+ is better than a 4+ as per the save rules that tell you the lower the save the better it is.

 Ghaz wrote:

Mellamoluigi wrote:
But surely if they jinked it automatically negates the armour saves and becomes a jink cover save irrespective of the ap of the weapon fired.

No. Jink does not negate the armour save and there is nothing to indicate anything other than the numeric value is used to determine what a model's 'best save' is.

This isn't written anywhere this is your interpretation

Mellamoluigi wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Mellamoluigi wrote:
But surely if they jinked it automatically negates the armour saves and becomes a jink cover save irrespective of the ap of the weapon fired.

No. Jink does not negate the armour save and there is nothing to indicate anything other than the numeric value is used to determine what a model's 'best save' is.

This isn't written anywhere this is your interpretation

Where does it say jinking removes a model's armor save?

I'm kind of of the opinion that a reroll shouldn't factor in to figuring out the best save.

First, it requires the players to do statistics mid-game. Granted, it's not HARD, but I know not everyone in the world knows the odds of a successful rerollable 3+ vs the odds of a 2+ armor for example, or how to perform the math quickly. Nothing else in the game requires any mathematical "effort," so it seems to go wildly against the rules design intent to suddenly require an equation that a 5 year old couldn't perform. When I'm teaching a new player how to play, I shouldn't need to teach him statistics to determine the difference of sometimes a mere few percent of success.

Second, it allows a precedence for the argument to be made that a save is "the best" if it benefits the player making it the most. For example, I might say that "the best" save for my cheap fearless chaplain in melee that is going to be stopping my army from shooting at an enemy on my turn might be his rosarius instead of his armor, because I would like him to drop. Another example would be the necron 5e lychguard with dispersion shields. "The best" save could be interpreted as the one that allows you to reflect shots.

Mellamoluigi wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Mellamoluigi wrote:
But surely if they jinked it automatically negates the armour saves and becomes a jink cover save irrespective of the ap of the weapon fired.

No. Jink does not negate the armour save and there is nothing to indicate anything other than the numeric value is used to determine what a model's 'best save' is.

This isn't written anywhere this is your interpretation

Where does it state it is removed? It states the model gains a cover save.

This is nto the same as 4th ed turboboost where they gained a cover save equal to their armour but LOST the armour save.

You are making the claim the additipn of a cover save removes the armour, so you need to provide a rule for it.

You are told what a better save is - the lower number, the better. The best is therefore the save with the lowest number. Rerolls may NOT be considered.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 38 - "Models with More than One Save" states that if a model has more than one type of save it must always use the best available save.

a 3+ is better than a 4+ as per the save rules that tell you the lower the save the better it is.

It only says this for Cover Saves. It is never stated that you must use a better Armour Save than a worse Cover Save.

Clearly, the rulebook states that you have the advantage of using the best available save.

Is 4+ rerolling a better save? Yes. Do you have the advantage of using it? Yup, rulebook says so. If you can't do the equations, or don't know which save is better, that's not my problem.

Is anyone seriously going to try and force their opponent not to use their 4+ rerollable? Like face to face, in real life, tell them they have to use their armour save? I foresee alot of "feth you" being said in that circumstance, and games turning sour.

As if it's that big of a deal anyways.

Where does the rulebook define anything other than a straight up numerically lower number is a 'better' save?

Just as it doesn't state rerolling factors into the best save, it also doesn't state that it doesn't factor in.

If your opponent knows which save is statistically better, why would you not let him use it? There are absolutely no rules denying him access to the save he has.

And if it doesn't state it, then its not a factor. The rules tell us what we can do, not what we can't.

For the sake of arguments what's the mathematical percentage of a 3+ and a rerollable 4+

Mellamoluigi wrote:
For the sake of arguments what's the mathematical percentage of a 3+ and a rerollable 4+

3+ = 66% rate of success
4+ rerollable = 75% rate of success

So then the best available save would be the jink

Mellamoluigi wrote:
So then the best available save would be the jink

No, because the only definition given in the rules for better is the lower number.

Okay, then a dark angel player could decide to deny himself the advantage of using what you guys consider to be the best possible save, and instead opt to use his rerollable jink save, which you guys contend is worse despite being 14% better.

This is congruent with RAW.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, then a dark angel player could decide to deny himself the advantage of using what you guys consider to be the best possible save, and instead opt to use his rerollable jink save, which you guys contend is worse despite being 14% better.

This is congruent with RAW.

No you don't have a choice in the matter. You HAVE to use your best save

 Ghaz wrote:

Mellamoluigi wrote:
So then the best available save would be the jink

No, because the only definition given in the rules for better is the lower number.

Where does it state that the best save is the lowest numerical number

Its already been mentioned in this thread. The only example we're given of what is a better save is the numerically lower save. Any other method of determining what is the better save has no support in the rules.

The game mechanics are based on numerical scores on a d6, not statistical data. The best save is the lowest d6 value.

That said, if my opponent choose to go for the 4+ re-rollable, I'd probably let them.

 Ghaz wrote:
Its already been mentioned in this thread. The only example we're given of what is a better save is the numerically lower save. Any other method of determining what is the better save has no support in the rules.

I didn't quote the specific rule about the lower the save is the better it is. but I will now:


"A warrior’s Armour Save gives it a chance to avoid harm when it is struck or shot. Most models have an Armour Save based on what kind of armour they are wearing, so this characteristic may be improved if they are equipped with better armour. Other creatures may receive a natural save from having thick bony plates or a chitinous shell. Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better. A model can never have an Armour Save better than 2+." (Models and Units Chapter, Armour Save (Sv) section. Emphasis mine).

Lower is better for saves. The best available would be the one that is numerically lower than any other save. As shown by the rules for Saves.

CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, then a dark angel player could decide to deny himself the advantage of using what you guys consider to be the best possible save, and instead opt to use his rerollable jink save, which you guys contend is worse despite being 14% better.

This is congruent with RAW.

No you don't have a choice in the matter. You HAVE to use your best save

Only when using Cover Saves, and only when comparing to other Cover Saves. Armour and Invulnerable Saves are not under this restriction, nor are Cover Saves under this restriction when compared to Armour and Invulnerable Saves.

Having the advantage of always using something is not a requirement of always using something.

Charistoph wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, then a dark angel player could decide to deny himself the advantage of using what you guys consider to be the best possible save, and instead opt to use his rerollable jink save, which you guys contend is worse despite being 14% better.

This is congruent with RAW.

No you don't have a choice in the matter. You HAVE to use your best save

Only when using Cover Saves, and only when comparing to other Cover Saves. Armour and Invulnerable Saves are not under this restriction, nor are Cover Saves under this restriction when compared to Armour and Invulnerable Saves.

Having the advantage of always using something is not a requirement of always using something.

That's balls. P38 of the rule book clearly groups armour, invuln and cover together and tells you to use the best save available.