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 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the rule says best save and in this case it's the re rollable one.

Indeed. Let's consider the circumstances also. I know how I'll play by following the rules.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the rule says best save and in this case it's the re rollable one.

No, because the rules define what is best and it is not the rerollable save. It is defined as the lowest numerical value.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Well the rule says best save and in this case it's the re rollable one.

No, because the rules define what is best and it is not the rerollable save. It is defined as the lowest numerical value.

Except the lowest numerical value isn't always the best save, the perfect example of being a Space Marine being fired at by a lascannon has a 3+ armour save and ends up with a 5+ cover save technically the higher numerical value is the best save because of how the save itself interacts with the weapon.

Using that logic, because of how the Rerollable save interacts with the weapon, it's the best save.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
Except the lowest numerical value isn't always the best save...

Except by the rules, it is. Why is that so hard to understand?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Charistoph - there is nothing optional in the statement. No choice is given to the player. they always take the best save.

Really? When provided with options, one does not have a choice? No restriction to the options is defined. When provided options and no restrictions, that by definition an opportunity for choice.

Does that mean one must always use the best weapon when selecting a Weapon? Or one must always go the full movement provided? No, the options exist.

The sentence from the BRB:

Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.

Is being taken out of context by most people in this thread.

The point they are ignoring in the sentence is 'unlike other characteristics'.

The author is simply letting the reader know, as an anecdote, that unlike the fact that other stats go higher when they get better armor is better the lower it is.

Later on they state use the best save.

This anecdotal phrase cannot be used to state that the best save is the lower one because that is not the context that it was written.

Therefore best means what the dictionary definition is:

From dictionary.com

best

adjective, superl. of good with better as compar.
1.
of the highest quality, excellence, or standing:
the best work; the best students.
2.
most advantageous, suitable, or desirable:
the best way.
3.
largest; most:
the best part of a day.

So...what is the most advantageous, desirable, highest quality save?

The rerollable jink one.

Sorry, but that is not correct. Normally a characteristic is better if t has a higher numerical value (e.g., a Ballistic Skill of 6 is better than one of 3). However, unlike other characteristics a lower Armour Save is better (e.g., an Armour Save of 3 is better than one of 5). Therefore they have defined what is better in regards to Armour Saves (a lower numerical value, which is unlike other characteristics where normally a higher numerical value is better).

The rule you quoted in no way supports your claims that that you take rerolls or anything else into account. In fact, it qute disproves it.

"The advantage of always using the best available save". This sentence is saying nothing more than "you cannot be forced to take a save that isn't your best available save".

It is not saying that YOU have no choice, it's saying your opponent has no choice. There is nothing in the brb that denies access to your jink save. What we have is the rules for jink which permit a model to gain a jink save, and the rules for dark angels rerolling their jink saves. Both of these give permission to use the save. Where are the rules stating that you CANNOT use your jink save and must use your armour save?

If you're going to quote that bit about having the advantage of always using the best available save, that is absolutely Not a restrictive sentence. It is not saying must or must only or anything forcing the player to use the armour save. Honestly that sentence lends more power to the controlling player, you can essentially take whatever save you feel is your best available save. In this case, 4+ rerollable is the best save the model has available, and the player has the advantage of using it.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
"The advantage of always using the best available save". This sentence is saying nothing more than "you cannot be forced to take a save that isn't your best available save".

It is saying that the player has the benefit of always using his best save. So why are you changing it to say he has the choice of which save to use?

There is no line in the BRB that says that a units best save is its numerically lower one - that is completely made up to troll the rerollable jink save.

Best literally means by dictionary definition, 'the most advantageous'

 Ghaz wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
"The advantage of always using the best available save". This sentence is saying nothing more than "you cannot be forced to take a save that isn't your best available save".

It is saying that the player has the benefit of always using his best save. So why are you changing it to say he has the choice of which save to use?

1) The options are there.
2) There is no language of requiring they always use the best.
3) There is no elimination of the other options.

Ghaz, what is the most advantageous save the biker has access to? The jink save?

Not much of an advantage to be forced to take a worse one now, is it? Especially by a rule that is attempting to give you an advantage. Kinda causes the sentence to self destruct.

Again, the sentence is denying the opponent the ability to force you to take a save worse than your best possible one. I didn't change the sentence to say he has the choice. He has an advantage, mmkay, of always using his best available save. Ask him what his best save is. Check to see if it's available. Use the save. Move on.

If it worked the way you think, it would say "the player is forced to take his save with the lowest roll required for success" or "the player must always use the save with the lowest roll required for success" or "the player is forced to use his lowest numbered save, regardless of the chance of success of another save due to rerolls". Something that denies player agency in deciding what their best save is. A word like forced or must or must only.

Currently there are no rules forcing anyone to not take the jink save. There is no hard language forcing you to accept that a poorer save is the only one you can use when you have access to a better one. There are only rules permitting access to a jink save and rules saying the player has the advantage of always using his best available save. His best available save is the jink save.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
There is no line in the BRB that says that a units best save is its numerically lower one - that is completely made up to troll the rerollable jink save.

Best literally means by dictionary definition, 'the most advantageous'

False. You even quoted it yourself.

Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.

The lower the Armour Save is, the better it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Ghaz, what is the most advantageous save the biker has access to? The jink save?

Where does it say he has the advantage of using the most advantageous save? It does not. He has the advantage of always using his best save. His best save is the lowest numerical save, and his advantage is that he always uses it and not just when he chooses to use it.

The quote is:

Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.

And like I said, this is an anecdotal phrase simply pointing out that, unlike other characteristics where higher is better - lower is better.

This is not a blanket statement saying that your best save is your numerically lowest one.

Once again, the dictionary definition of best is the most 'advantageous' - you don't need a BRB definition of best because there is already one in the english language.

No. Its not 'anecdotal'. It plainly explains how Armour Saves differ from other characteristics.

Chaosmarauder, which is better: 2+ save, or a rerollable 3+ save?

Except in this case, as defined by you, the sentence "he has the advantage of always using the best available save" is clearly not an advantage at all, rather it is a disadvantage to anyone with more than one save, one of which is rerollable.

What if the space marine biker had 4+ armour? Does he get to choose the jink then? Why does he get to choose? Where are the rules stating you can choose that?

 Happyjew wrote:
Chaosmarauder, which is better: 2+ save, or a rerollable 3+ save?

It's up to the owning player to decide which is the -best- for his given situation. The rule in no way defines what "best", ifor it did there would be a chart, or explanation for various rerolls. Instead it gives a SINGLE example of a Singular case, showing you can not be forced to take a save that would otherwise instantly wound or kill your model if another is available to prevent it.

If you feel a 4+ rerollable is more likely to mitigate more damage than your 3+ then it is the best available save.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

It's up to the owning player to decide which is the -best- for his given situation. The rule in no way defines what "best", ifor it did there would be a chart, or explanation for various rerolls. Instead it gives a SINGLE example of a Singular case, showing you can not be forced to take a save that would otherwise instantly wound or kill your model if another is available to prevent it.

If you feel a 4+ rerollable is more likely to mitigate more damage than your 3+ then it is the best available save.

By the rules this is false. It is NOT up to the owning player to decide which is the -best- for his given situation. The rules tell you what the best save is.

You ALWAYS use the best save. the lower an armor save is the better it is as per the RAW.

So when given a 3+ or a 4+ save, the 3+ is the Best of the two saves by the RAW.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Chaosmarauder, which is better: 2+ save, or a rerollable 3+ save?

It's up to the owning player to decide which is the -best- for his given situation. The rule in no way defines what "best", ifor it did there would be a chart, or explanation for various rerolls. Instead it gives a SINGLE example of a Singular case, showing you can not be forced to take a save that would otherwise instantly wound or kill your model if another is available to prevent it.

If you feel a 4+ rerollable is more likely to mitigate more damage than your 3+ then it is the best available save.

Again, that is demonstrably false. From 'Armour Save (Sv)' in the Models & Units' section of the rulebook:

Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better.

The lower an Armour Save is, the better it is, with the lowest Armour Save being the best.

You guys honestly think that 3+ is a better save than 4+ rerollable because of a general statement designed to make new players understand 2+ is a good armour save characteristic and 5+ is not so good when they look at unit profiles.

You guys know 4+ rerollable is better. That you are choosing to interpret the rules so strongly against what you know to be true is strange in my opinion and pedantic. The 4+ rerollable is a better save. There is no rules forcing a player to not access the save when his models get wounded.

If you looked me in the eye and said "you have the advantage of using your best save now" and I said "oh cool, well I have this nice rerollable jink save here that has a 75% chance of success so I'll take that" and you say "no no no, hold on buddy, you have a 3+ save. That's 66% success rate. You gotta take that instead." I would personally beleive you were trying to feth with me, and directly contradict yourself within the conversation.

You wouldn't feel the same way I guess.

Will no-one answer the repeated question of whether a rerollable 3+ armour save is permitted considering an armour save cannot be better than a 2+?

Or can we choose which one is better and say 2+ is better but I'm going to take the rerollable 3+?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You guys honestly think that 3+ is a better save than 4+ rerollable because of a general statement designed to make new players understand 2+ is a good armour save characteristic and 5+ is not so good when they look at unit profiles.

Yes, because that is what the rules say. Now show where rerolls figure in when it comes to what a model's best save is. Page and paragraph, please.

Ghaz you have gone and confused yourself again... that is why so many people are raising such a ruckus with you.

Ghaz what you stated is called jumping to conclusions or a leap in logic - and in your case the statement you made is illogical:

The lower an Armour Save is, the better it is, with the lowest Armour Save being the best.

The last part (that you made up) is false - because best means, by definition @ dictionary.com, the most advantageous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Chaosmarauder, which is better: 2+ save, or a rerollable 3+ save?

I know what you're trying to say - but do you really think that people playing this game that make tons of very advanced number crunching & statistical calculations all the time aren't going to make this simple calculation? especially after you do it once will know forever what the answer is?

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ghaz what you stated is called jumping to conclusions or a leap in logic - and in your case the statement you made is illogical:

The lower an Armour Save is, the better it is, with the lowest Armour Save being the best.

The last part (that you made up) is false - because best means, by definition @ dictionary.com, the most advantageous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Chaosmarauder, which is better: 2+ save, or a rerollable 3+ save?

I know what you're trying to say - but do you really think that people playing this game that make tons of very advanced number crunching & statistical calculations all the time aren't going to make this simple calculation? especially after you do it once will know forever what the answer is?

Please re-read tenet #6

Also, if you know what he is trying to say, you would tell us whether you believe a rerollable 3+ is allowed or not

RAW - you get to use your best save - which is the most advantageous.

2+ is a 5/6 chance of saving.

3+ rerollable is an 8/9 chance of saving.

Therefor, RAW, the 3+ rerollable is not only allowed but forced to be taken.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ghaz what you stated is called jumping to conclusions or a leap in logic - and in your case the statement you made is illogical:

The lower an Armour Save is, the better it is, with the lowest Armour Save being the best.

The last part (that you made up) is false - because best means, by definition @ dictionary.com, the most advantageous.

Again, false. GW has said it is an advantage to always use the best Armour Save. You made up the part that it allows you to use the most advantageous save for the player. It says no such thing. It is the best save, period and we have rules that tell us that the lower an Armour Save the better it is. Perhaps you should heed your own advice and stop making up rules in desperation to support a position which has already been disproven.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Chaosmarauder, which is better: 2+ save, or a rerollable 3+ save?

It's up to the owning player to decide which is the -best- for his given situation. The rule in no way defines what "best", ifor it did there would be a chart, or explanation for various rerolls. Instead it gives a SINGLE example of a Singular case, showing you can not be forced to take a save that would otherwise instantly wound or kill your model if another is available to prevent it.

If you feel a 4+ rerollable is more likely to mitigate more damage than your 3+ then it is the best available save.

I didn't ask which was best; I asked which was better. So again, which is better: 2+ save or re-rollable 3+ save?

 chaosmarauder wrote:
RAW - you get to use your best save - which is the most advantageous.

2+ is a 5/6 chance of saving.

3+ rerollable is an 8/9 chance of saving.

Therefor, RAW, the 3+ rerollable is not only allowed but forced to be taken.

I think you are also missing another definition of "best", which is "better than all others in quality or value" - Merriam Webster. This is a standard relationship in English, of Good - Better - Best. One cannot fully ignore that relationship when dealing with something already defining "better".

 jokerkd wrote:
Will no-one answer the repeated question of whether a rerollable 3+ armour save is permitted considering an armour save cannot be better than a 2+?

Or can we choose which one is better and say 2+ is better but I'm going to take the rerollable 3+?

It depends on how you translate the "has the advantage of always using the best Save".

For some, this is the same standard used in 5th Edition, i.e. you must always use the best Save, period.

However, for fewer, this is not an absolute statement and so the ability to choose the literally less better Save, but mathematically better Save is viable.

There is no question as how the rulebook defines "best Save", though, at least, not without ignoring other rules and their relationships in the English language.