Russian jet shot down in Turkish/Syrian Airspace

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**Shadow Captain Edithae**

So...

1. Turkey shoots down Russian jet.
2. Turkey begins shelling a military ally of Russia.

Are they trying to deliberately provoke World War fething Three here???

Its like they're daring Russia to attack them, knowing that NATO would be forced to support them.

Why are we enabling these Islamist lunatics?

**LethalShade**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...

1. Turkey shoots down Russian jet.
2. Turkey begins shelling a military ally of Russia.

Are they trying to deliberately provoke World War fething Three here???

Its like they're daring Russia to attack them, knowing that NATO would be forced to support them.

Why are we enabling these Islamist lunatics?

Calm down, that's not confirmed yet.

But if it is :

Spoiler:

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I say we bomb Turkey. All in favour, say aye.

**Orlanth**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So...

Why are we enabling these Islamist lunatics?

The Turkish government aren't particularly Islamist, they just happen to be Moslem. Turkey is to all intends and purposes a secular state.

They do not appear to be shooting down Russian planes or shelling Assas forces 'because Islam', and it isn't really fair to imply they are.

**LordofHats**

It's like people haven't been following the Syrian War at all.

Turkey has been attacking the Syrian Army for awhile now (long before this happened).

Russia is as much to blame for the mess as they are.

A whole bunch of double standards still flying around.

But I might as well stop bothering. People seem more willing to ignore fact to rant about Muslims than to actually look at anything realistically reflecting ME politics. Carry on.

**Freakazoitt**

LethalShade wrote:
Can someone confirm ?

Unfortunately, I lost the source. It was on Syrian military news, provided by Syrian Army command report. So, just believe me

**Jihadin**

Anyone else catch electronic warfare now being conducted by the Russian military now to avoid another incident like this from happening again. Now we're going to see who has the latest generations of SINGARS now in fighter aircraft's

**Orlanth**

Freakazoitt wrote:
LethalShade wrote:
Can someone confirm ?

Unfortunately, I lost the source. It was on Syrian military news, provided by Syrian Army command report. So, just believe me

You serving out there Freakazoitt? Stay safe.

I wouldnt take Assad's pet radio as a valid source without third party corroboration. LethalShades scepticism stands.

**Freakazoitt**

I found only russian site http://lenta.ru/news/2015/11/28/syrianarmy/
original arabian was somewhere like facebook

another news: body of killed pilot was found and moved to Turkey. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/29/us-mideast-crisis-turkey-russia-pilot-idUSKBN0TI07T20151129

I hope, free doom fighters didn't spoil a body

**jhe90**

It's not the biggest thing in the international scale of events, but right now things are pretty tense, only take a small pebbble to start a landslide and a powerful one.

Things are far from stable and calm.

**Iron_Captain**

Turkey stopped violating Greek airspace after Russian Su-24 downing

Turkish warplanes abruptly ceased violating Greek airspace after downing a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 bomber on November 24. Previously, air intrusions made by Turkish fighter jets took place on a daily basis and amounted to thousands a year.

The data comes from a diplomatic source in Athens, cited by RIA Novosti.

The last time Turkish warplanes were spotted in Greek airspace was on November 25, when six jets, two of them carrying weapons, entered the neighbor’s aerial domain.

Intrusions of Turkish jets into Greek national airspace remain a constant headache for Athens. Turkey and Greece, while partners in NATO, have been adversaries for centuries. The two nations have warred with each other before and still have territorial disputes.

In particular 2014 was marked with a sharp increase of Greek airspace violations by the Turkish Air Force, which amounted to 2,244 incidents. From January to October 2015, Greece’s airspace was violated by Turkish warplanes 1,233 times, including 31 flights over Greek territory itself, according to the Greek Air Force’s headquarters. In November, before the downing of the Russian bomber, there were at least 50 registered airspace violations.

Turkish jets habitually intrude into Greek airspace over disputed islands in the Aegean Sea, provoking the Greek Air Force to scramble fighter jets to intercept. Such airborne rendezvous often end with mock dogfights, with pilots performing real lock-ons of their air-to-air missiles onto their NATO partner’s aircraft.

Athens has repeatedly raised the matter at NATO meetings. Greece’s representative to NATO last reported Turkish violations of their national airspace on November 24. The reaction of other NATO member states has been usually to sit on the fence, and Ankara continued to test Athen’s patience.

When Turkey shot down the Russian bomber on Tuesday, Greek Foreign Minister Nikas Kotzias expressed solidarity with Russia in a phone conversation with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov.

“Athens agrees with the Russian president’s assessment on Ankara’s hostile actions, which are contrary to the goals of the anti-ISIS coalition,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said, as reported by RIA Novosti.

Greece, according to its Foreign Ministry, “especially comprehends provocative moves by Turkey given regular multiple violations of Greek air space by Ankara lasting for years.”

According to Greece’s General Staff, on November 24, the day a Turkish F-16 fighter jet fired an air-to-air missile at Russia’s bomber, the Turkish Air Force made no violations of Greek airspace for the first time in a long period.

Once the Russian warplane went down in flames, “there was zero activity of Turkish aviation in Greek FIR in the Aegean Sea, and it is understandable why,” RIA Novosti cited a diplomatic source in Athens.

The Turkish Air Force also halted strikes on Syrian territory after Russia deployed S-400 long-range air defense complexes at the Khmeimim airbase in Syria’s Latakia, from where the Russian Air Force strikes Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL).

https://www.rt.com/news/323861-turkey-greek-airspace-violations/

Probably afraid to get shot down themselves now.

**jhe90**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Turkey stopped violating Greek airspace after Russian Su-24 downing

Turkish warplanes abruptly ceased violating Greek airspace after downing a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 bomber on November 24. Previously, air intrusions made by Turkish fighter jets took place on a daily basis and amounted to thousands a year.

The data comes from a diplomatic source in Athens, cited by RIA Novosti.

The last time Turkish warplanes were spotted in Greek airspace was on November 25, when six jets, two of them carrying weapons, entered the neighbor’s aerial domain.

Intrusions of Turkish jets into Greek national airspace remain a constant headache for Athens. Turkey and Greece, while partners in NATO, have been adversaries for centuries. The two nations have warred with each other before and still have territorial disputes.

In particular 2014 was marked with a sharp increase of Greek airspace violations by the Turkish Air Force, which amounted to 2,244 incidents. From January to October 2015, Greece’s airspace was violated by Turkish warplanes 1,233 times, including 31 flights over Greek territory itself, according to the Greek Air Force’s headquarters. In November, before the downing of the Russian bomber, there were at least 50 registered airspace violations.

Turkish jets habitually intrude into Greek airspace over disputed islands in the Aegean Sea, provoking the Greek Air Force to scramble fighter jets to intercept. Such airborne rendezvous often end with mock dogfights, with pilots performing real lock-ons of their air-to-air missiles onto their NATO partner’s aircraft.

Athens has repeatedly raised the matter at NATO meetings. Greece’s representative to NATO last reported Turkish violations of their national airspace on November 24. The reaction of other NATO member states has been usually to sit on the fence, and Ankara continued to test Athen’s patience.

When Turkey shot down the Russian bomber on Tuesday, Greek Foreign Minister Nikas Kotzias expressed solidarity with Russia in a phone conversation with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov.

“Athens agrees with the Russian president’s assessment on Ankara’s hostile actions, which are contrary to the goals of the anti-ISIS coalition,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said, as reported by RIA Novosti.

Greece, according to its Foreign Ministry, “especially comprehends provocative moves by Turkey given regular multiple violations of Greek air space by Ankara lasting for years.”

According to Greece’s General Staff, on November 24, the day a Turkish F-16 fighter jet fired an air-to-air missile at Russia’s bomber, the Turkish Air Force made no violations of Greek airspace for the first time in a long period.

Once the Russian warplane went down in flames, “there was zero activity of Turkish aviation in Greek FIR in the Aegean Sea, and it is understandable why,” RIA Novosti cited a diplomatic source in Athens.

The Turkish Air Force also halted strikes on Syrian territory after Russia deployed S-400 long-range air defense complexes at the Khmeimim airbase in Syria’s Latakia, from where the Russian Air Force strikes Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL).

https://www.rt.com/news/323861-turkey-greek-airspace-violations/

Probably afraid to get shot down themselves now.

Well if you apply there standard, warn, target lock and fire inm 17 seconds!

**Orlanth**

Turkey probably was given instruction from NATO.

**Breotan**

Orlanth wrote:
Turkey probably was given instruction from NATO.

Or there was concern of how it could affect their EU membership application.

**LordofHats**

Or Russia Today remembered the Aegean Sea Dispute exists and stopped counting the extra four miles of airspace Greece claims beyond it's territorial waters (which is how they created that absurd number in the first place).

**Tyran**

LordofHats wrote:
Or Russia Today remembered the Aegean Sea Dispute exists and stopped counting the extra four miles of airspace Greece claims beyond it's territorial waters (which is how they created that absurd number in the first place).

The territory that the Russian's planes crossed also is disputed, so same thing.

**LordofHats**

Tyran wrote:

The territory that the Russian's planes crossed also is disputed, so same thing.

Not what I'm referring to.

One of the big sticking points in the Aegean Sea Dispute is that Greece claims 4 miles of air space beyond it's territorial waters (no country has airspace that extends beyond its territory). Given all the islands and rocks sticking out of the ground that belong to Greece in the Aegean Sea, this has the effect of Greece claiming the entire sea as it's own personal air defense buffer, which is how Russia Today invented the myth that Turkey violates Greek air space "thousands of times a year" earlier this year.

And now, the same news source that invented the myth claims that Turkey has stopped. Possibility? Russia Today simply decided to stop counting all the Turkish planes flying in that 4 mile band as air space violations.

**Jihadin**

LordofHats wrote:
Tyran wrote:

The territory that the Russian's planes crossed also is disputed, so same thing.

Not what I'm referring to.

One of the big sticking points in the Aegean Sea Dispute is that Greece claims 4 miles of air space beyond it's territorial waters (no country has airspace that extends beyond its territory). Given all the islands and rocks sticking out of the ground that belong to Greece in the Aegean Sea, this has the effect of Greece claiming the entire sea as it's own personal air defense buffer, which is how Russia Today invented the myth that Turkey violates Greek air space "thousands of times a year" earlier this year.

And now, the same news source that invented the myth claims that Turkey has stopped. Possibility? Russia Today simply decided to stop counting all the Turkish planes flying in that 4 mile band as air space violations.

Was Greece charging Turkey for the use of the air space? Have they even attempted to? has that idea occur to Greece politicians?

**LordofHats**

Jihadin wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Tyran wrote:

The territory that the Russian's planes crossed also is disputed, so same thing.

Not what I'm referring to.

One of the big sticking points in the Aegean Sea Dispute is that Greece claims 4 miles of air space beyond it's territorial waters (no country has airspace that extends beyond its territory). Given all the islands and rocks sticking out of the ground that belong to Greece in the Aegean Sea, this has the effect of Greece claiming the entire sea as it's own personal air defense buffer, which is how Russia Today invented the myth that Turkey violates Greek air space "thousands of times a year" earlier this year.

And now, the same news source that invented the myth claims that Turkey has stopped. Possibility? Russia Today simply decided to stop counting all the Turkish planes flying in that 4 mile band as air space violations.

Was Greece charging Turkey for the use of the air space? Have they even attempted to? has that idea occur to Greece politicians?

No. There are a few international agreements on how the air space is to be managed but Greece and Turkey love poking one another over the fine details of international law. For Greece it's more about domestic politics than international politics. Turkey is the opposite.

The Aegean Sea dispute probably deserves a little credit as Greece and Turkey have made very slow progress in resolving the various issues it entails over the years (it's like pulling teeth, but they've been dealing with it). The major sticking points has been the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, and Turkey's threat of war if Greece claims the traditional 12 miles of territorial water. Because of the former, Greece wants as much territorial water and airspace as it can get because there's been a prevailing fear of Turkish aggression ever since 1974. As to the later, Turkey is afraid of Greece's own personal great lake shutting it out of the Aegean entirely.

**Iron_Captain**

LordofHats wrote:
Tyran wrote:

The territory that the Russian's planes crossed also is disputed, so same thing.

Not what I'm referring to.

One of the big sticking points in the Aegean Sea Dispute is that Greece claims 4 miles of air space beyond it's territorial waters (no country has airspace that extends beyond its territory). Given all the islands and rocks sticking out of the ground that belong to Greece in the Aegean Sea, this has the effect of Greece claiming the entire sea as it's own personal air defense buffer, which is how Russia Today invented the myth that Turkey violates Greek air space "thousands of times a year" earlier this year.

And now, the same news source that invented the myth claims that Turkey has stopped. Possibility? Russia Today simply decided to stop counting all the Turkish planes flying in that 4 mile band as air space violations.

afaik the Aegean dispute is that Turkey claims that in the Aegean (and for some reason only there), territorial waters should only extend 6 miles from the nearest territory. Airspace normally covers all of a nations territorial waters. By the international Laws of the Sea, Greece is entitled to 12 miles of territorial waters and therefore also 12 miles of airspace. It is with consideration to Turkey that Greece only claims 10 miles of airspace. Only Turkey is still not satisfied with this and claims this should be 6 miles.

RT did not invent any myth, they got that information from the Greek government, and it is not a myth. The Greek claims are completely justified by international treaties, whereas those of Turkey are not.

**d-usa**

Iron_Captain wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Tyran wrote:

The territory that the Russian's planes crossed also is disputed, so same thing.

Not what I'm referring to.

One of the big sticking points in the Aegean Sea Dispute is that Greece claims 4 miles of air space beyond it's territorial waters (no country has airspace that extends beyond its territory). Given all the islands and rocks sticking out of the ground that belong to Greece in the Aegean Sea, this has the effect of Greece claiming the entire sea as it's own personal air defense buffer, which is how Russia Today invented the myth that Turkey violates Greek air space "thousands of times a year" earlier this year.

And now, the same news source that invented the myth claims that Turkey has stopped. Possibility? Russia Today simply decided to stop counting all the Turkish planes flying in that 4 mile band as air space violations.

afaik the Aegean dispute is that Turkey claims that in the Aegean (and for some reason only there), territorial waters should only extend 6 miles from the nearest territory. Airspace normally covers all of a nations territorial waters. By the international Laws of the Sea, Greece is entitled to 12 miles of territorial waters and therefore also 12 miles of airspace. It is with consideration to Turkey that Greece only claims 10 miles of airspace. Only Turkey is still not satisfied with this and claims this should be 6 miles.

RT did not invent any myth, they got that information from the Greek government, and it is not a myth. The Greek claims are completely justified by international treaties, whereas those of Turkey are not.

It is fairly easy to see why both sides are making their arguments.

Here is the current map at 10 miles:

Here is the map at 12 miles:

And here it is at 6 miles:

Again, it's fairly easy to see why each country is making their respective arguments. A 12 mile zone pretty much locks Turkey out of the sea, but on the other hand it's nothing that every other country that happens to be landlocked has to deal with.

**LordofHats**

Iron_Captain wrote:

afaik the Aegean dispute is that Turkey claims that in the Aegean (and for some reason only there), territorial waters should only extend 6 miles from the nearest territory.

The Aegean sea represents a unique geographic problem for Greece and Turkey. There aren't really any other regions like it in the world. The closest would be the Caribbean and Melanesia, but neither of those regions have the Black Sea on one side and the the Mediterranean on the other with the sea in between falling almost completely into the economic and territorial sphere on one country.

And it's not just Turkey that takes issue with it. Pretty much everyone disagrees with the idea of letting Greece have full control of the Aegean Sea. it would give them unprecedented power over a vital waterway.

Airspace normally covers all of a nations territorial waters.

Turkey currently accepts that it does. They dispute that Greece can extend that air space 4 additional miles (and love poking the bear). This dispute goes back to even before the international law of the sea existed (to which Turkey is not a signatory for this exact reason). Turkey's claim is that the application of 12 miles is not equitable (they're not wrong), and Greece says they refrain to 6 miles because Turkey has stated extending waters to 12 miles would be Casus Belli (they're not wrong, strictly speaking).

As far as territorial disputes go, the Aegean Sea one is probably the least slowed out there (not like they're fighting over a bunch of rocks no one lives on). Greece to it's credit has largely recognized Turkey's position as far as territorial waters are concerned, and Turkey to it's credit has agreed to mutual arbitration on the issues and both countries have mostly been pretty tame about it, a real achievement considering we're talking about Turkey and Greece (those two really don't like each other).

The airspace conflict is really the only part where they're virtually at each other's throats (sometimes literally, like that time two F16's flew so close to each other they crashed)

RT did not invent any myth, they got that information from the Greek government, and it is not a myth.

At worst it's purposeful misinformation. At best, it's ignoring inconvenient facts to sell sensationalist garbage as news.

The Greek claims are completely justified by international treaties, whereas those of Turkey are not.

No they're not. That's what half the dispute is about. International treaties do not effect countries that don't sign them, which is why they're useless in these situations.

**Iron_Captain**

LordofHats wrote:
No they're not. That's what half the dispute is about. International treaties do not effect countries that don't sign them, which is why they're useless in these situations.

The fact that Turkey has not signed the treaty does not mean that other states who did sign suddenly lose their right to a 12-mile zone of territorial waters. Greece, like any other nation in the world, has a right to extend its territory that far. It is a great show of Greek self-constraint and consideration towards Turkey that they don't, and instead tries to solve the dispute in a friendly way.
Your claim that Greece and Russia Today invented some kind of myth together is quite simply ridiculous. There is no myth. Just Greece and Turkey having a conflict regarding the size of Greek territorial waters, and Turkey frequently "invades" the territory claimed by Greece. That is what RT reported on, they got the information from the Greek government (who has started mentioning these Turkish intrusions a lot since the SU-24 was shot down). Then they reported that the Greek government has reported that the intrusions have stopped (which would make sense from a Turkish point of view, it would not be very smart to continue now given the circumstances.). I don't see where you got this myth from.

**d-usa**

Iron_Captain wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
No they're not. That's what half the dispute is about. International treaties do not effect countries that don't sign them, which is why they're useless in these situations.

The fact that Turkey has not signed the treaty does not mean that other states who did sign suddenly lose their right to a 12-mile zone of territorial waters. Greece, like any other nation in the world, has a right to extend its territory that far. It is a great show of Greek self-constraint and consideration towards Turkey that they don't, and instead tries to solve the dispute in a friendly way.
Your claim that Greece and Russia Today invented some kind of myth together is quite simply ridiculous. There is no myth. Just Greece and Turkey having a conflict regarding the size of Greek territorial waters, and Turkey frequently "invades" the territory claimed by Greece. That is what RT reported on, they got the information from the Greek government (who has started mentioning these Turkish intrusions a lot since the SU-24 was shot down). Then they reported that the Greek government has reported that the intrusions have stopped (which would make sense from a Turkish point of view, it would not be very smart to continue now given the circumstances.). I don't see where you got this myth from.

If Turkey and Greece sign a treaty that Russians can only eat Pickles for breakfast, does that mean that the agreement is binding to Russia?

There is no "right" to a 12-mile zone for any single nation on this planet. A bunch of nations got together and agreed that they would recognize each other's claim of a 12-mile zone, but that's it. Turkey didn't sing that treaty so it's not bound by it and can continue to work with Greece on an agreement like they have been doing.

Trust me, Turkey does a lot of stupid stuff and there is not really any need to invent even more stupid stuff to blame them for.

**Grey Templar**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Greece, like any other nation in the world, has a right to extend its territory that far.

Only with other signers of said agreement. With non-signers you only have the right to whatever you can hold with military force.

**Iron_Captain**

d-usa wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
No they're not. That's what half the dispute is about. International treaties do not effect countries that don't sign them, which is why they're useless in these situations.

The fact that Turkey has not signed the treaty does not mean that other states who did sign suddenly lose their right to a 12-mile zone of territorial waters. Greece, like any other nation in the world, has a right to extend its territory that far. It is a great show of Greek self-constraint and consideration towards Turkey that they don't, and instead tries to solve the dispute in a friendly way.
Your claim that Greece and Russia Today invented some kind of myth together is quite simply ridiculous. There is no myth. Just Greece and Turkey having a conflict regarding the size of Greek territorial waters, and Turkey frequently "invades" the territory claimed by Greece. That is what RT reported on, they got the information from the Greek government (who has started mentioning these Turkish intrusions a lot since the SU-24 was shot down). Then they reported that the Greek government has reported that the intrusions have stopped (which would make sense from a Turkish point of view, it would not be very smart to continue now given the circumstances.). I don't see where you got this myth from.

If Turkey and Greece sign a treaty that Russians can only eat Pickles for breakfast, does that mean that the agreement is binding to Russia?

There is no "right" to a 12-mile zone for any single nation on this planet. A bunch of nations got together and agreed that they would recognize each other's claim of a 12-mile zone, but that's it. Turkey didn't sing that treaty so it's not bound by it and can continue to work with Greece on an agreement like they have been doing.

Trust me, Turkey does a lot of stupid stuff and there is not really any need to invent even more stupid stuff to blame them for.

Yes, but Greece did sign the treaty, which means that other countries have to respect Greece's 12-mile zone (if Greece were to claim that). Turkey not signing the treaty or not recognizing claims is completely irrelevant to the fact that other nations are bound by the treaty. If the entire world, including Russia, but except Turkey, sign a treaty that Russians can only eat pickles, does the fact that Turkey did not sign this treaty stop Russia and other countries from making Russians eat pickles? No. It is completely irrelevant. And now if Turkey is really angry about Russians having to eat pickles, does that change anything? Still no. The other nations are still fully in their right by making Russians eat pickles, and if they show consideration towards Turkish concerns, this is an act of goodwill. Turkey can't demand anything regarding the pickle treaty.
I am not blaming Turkey for anything regarding the Aegean dispute (every nation would do the same in their place), but the cause of the dispute really is not with Greece. The Greeks are in fact very considerate towards the Turks by not claiming a 12-mile zone, despite the fact that the Laws of the Sea treaty allows them to do so and have it recognised by most of the world.

As a side note, Turkey does claim a 12-mile zone of its own in other areas.

Grey Templar wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Greece, like any other nation in the world, has a right to extend its territory that far.

Only with other signers of said agreement. With non-signers you only have the right to whatever you can hold with military force.

Or the right to whatever you get by just being nice to each other and making an alternative agreement. Greece making compromises to adress Turkish concern is very good. More nations should treat their enemies that way.

But again I want to stress that it is Greece who has to compromise and adress Turkish concerns regarding the size of the Greek territorial zone, not the other way around.

**LordofHats**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Your claim that Greece and Russia Today invented some kind of myth together is quite simply ridiculous.

Almost as ridiculous as claiming the US invented Ebola, right?

I said nothing about Greece.

That is what RT reported on, they got the information from the Greek government (who has started mentioning these Turkish intrusions a lot since the SU-24 was shot down).

It's pretty topical. In 2004 (or 2006 I forget) there was an incident where Greek and Turkish jets collided in the air. In 1996 Greece was accused of shooting down a Turkish jet. The two air forces engage in mock dog fights in those 4 mile belts regularly. So much that if you ignored anything close to reality and pretended there was no Aegean Dispute you'd get something like 2000 airspace violations.

International law is not a 40k rule book. There is no RAW or RAI. They're RAN (Rules as Negotiated). Negotiations are ongoing. Ignoring that is lying (i.e. creating a myth).

I don't see where you got this myth from.

I read a lot.

**d-usa**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Yes, but Greece did sign the treaty, which means that other countries have to respect Greece's 12-mile zone (if Greece were to claim that). Turkey not signing the treaty or not recognizing claims is completely irrelevant to the fact that other nations are bound by the treaty.

Correct. Every country that signed the treaty recognizes that Greece has a 12-mile zone and Greece recognizes that every other treaty signer has a 12-mile zone.

But the treaty doesn't have anything to do with Turkey nor is Turkey bound by it since they never signed it.

You will find that not signing treaties, and therefore not caring about what treaties say, is a US specialty. You are arguing with the experts when it comes to irrelevant treaties here

**Iron_Captain**

LordofHats wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Your claim that Greece and Russia Today invented some kind of myth together is quite simply ridiculous.

Almost as ridiculous as claiming the US invented Ebola, right?

I said nothing about Greece.

Yes you did. The "myth" you were talking about originates with the Greek government. RT has actually nothing to do with it, the information comes from here: http://www.geetha.mil.gr/en/violations/violations-of-national-airspace-infringements-of-air-traffic-regulations-icao-en.html
On the other hand, "US inventing ebola" is completely off-topic, ridiculous and I really do not see where you are getting that from. Your arguments are getting stranger and stranger...

LordofHats wrote:
That is what RT reported on, they got the information from the Greek government (who has started mentioning these Turkish intrusions a lot since the SU-24 was shot down).

It's pretty topical. In 2004 (or 2006 I forget) there was an incident where Greek and Turkish jets collided in the air. In 1996 Greece was accused of shooting down a Turkish jet. The two air forces engage in mock dog fights in those 4 mile belts regularly. So much that if you ignored anything close to reality and pretended there was no Aegean Dispute you'd get something like 2000 airspace violations.

International law is not a 40k rule book. There is no RAW or RAI. They're RAN (Rules as Negotiated). Negotiations are ongoing. Ignoring that is lying (i.e. creating a myth).

So? Rules as negotiated are still rules. I do not see how this is relevant. Greece has reported thousands of Turkish violations of its airspace. This is true. The fact that Turkey does not recognise those areas as Greek airspace is irrelevant, because Greece does consider it to be their airspace, and this is Greece reporting on violations of its airspace.

LordofHats wrote:
I don't see where you got this myth from.

I read a lot.

Again I fail to see the relevance here. I read a lot too. Most people I know read a lot too. I think most people here on Dakka read a lot as well.

**LordofHats**

Iron_Captain wrote:
On the other hand, "US inventing ebola" is completely off-topic, ridiculous and I really do not see where you are getting that from. Your arguments are getting stranger and stranger...

For someone who espouses that Russian news outlets are reliable, you don't seem to know much about them.

Calling something irrelevant doesn't actually make it irrelevant (especially not when it's completely relevant). I think the word you actually want is 'inconvenient.'