Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I often read people talking about how backwards and ritualistic the mechanicum is. Or how they repress any kind of advancement or technological creativity. I thought this way as well when i first got into 40k lore years ago. The mechanicum was a religious bunch of techno-priests steeped in dogma and self-imposed ignorance.

And then I started a phd in statistics... and now at the end of my journey I think i have a better of what is going on with the mechanicum in 40k.

To explain a bit: PhD is about finding your niche in a field. Statistics is a relatively new field (not even 200 years old like say geometry or mechanical engineering which have 2000+ years behind it). My own specialization in statistics is to create mathematical/statistical models that describe educational data. Mainly I deal with problems like missing data and quantifying what makes students learn in schools. An equation that would describe a students test score on a given exam would look like someone threw up the Greek alphabet on a piece of paper.

Now to put these equations into action, I use a computer program called R. This is a language that was written to just write programs/scripts for statistics.

Do I understand every bit of nuance that underlies all the mathematics of what I am doing? Not in any way. Some of the things I use, I use them like tools (things like non-parametric optimizers in stats), do I know the mathematical mechanics? Not really. I could through taking a course or two, but it would take another 5 years to come to any point where I could make any advances in that small specialization in statistics.



Now imagine every phd statistician suddenly vanished, most of the textbooks were lost, and the average person is just left with R (the above mentioned statistics programming language).

Statistics research would grind to a halt. You would have the practicioners finding interesting applications for the knowledge thats there, but eventually, there will be a wall where you hit.

And then you are left with the current body of knowledge and when you try to look at the mathematical/statistical mechanics behind what you are doing. You use R to do something called time series analysis (i.e. why gas is cheaper in winter vs summer). If you have ever opened a stats book, I recommend doing so to give you an idea of what the random imperial citizen might think upon finding an STC. Try to understand what is going on and THEN try to extend those results without the requisite background knowledge. I know I don't have that kind of ability. And could you imagine having to build up something as complex as Bayesian adjustments from the ground up?

Now imagine that what you are using R for is to analyze a vital sector in society, say food production. What you have might not be the best, but it gets the job done and you cant afford to tinker with things when the consequences of a mistake will be that people go hungry.


And thats just statistics, imagine a scientific field with 10000 years of research behind it...

On a related note, here's an article how the cure for scurvy was discovered and then lost for quite some time, before being re-discovered. This actually happened, here on Earth, and we didn't even need any apocalyptic wars and deaths of whole worlds to precipitate it.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/24149/how-scurvy-was-cured-then-cure-was-lost

The problem is that the Imperium has had thousands of years to attempt to rebuild their knowledge. And they've had the advantage of working examples of their technology to attempt to reverse-engineer, or at least give a target to aim for in trying to reconstruct the process that got them to that level. They're in their current state because they're an insane theocracy that believes that progress is heresy, not because the task is impossible.

But a fragmented knowledge base. They might have twenty billion computers, but have lost the science on how to build a Wi-Fi radio. They have only ethernet connections to study, which tells you *nothing* about Wi-Fi.

Apply sacred unguents and recite the current litanies to the machine God and R will function correctly.

Sheesh! Acolytes these days!

 Psienesis wrote:
But a fragmented knowledge base. They might have twenty billion computers, but have lost the science on how to build a Wi-Fi radio. They have only ethernet connections to study, which tells you *nothing* about Wi-Fi.

But the point is that if you are willing to do science and engineering instead of executing anyone who tries for heresy those missing things will be rebuilt over thousands of years. For example, we know the Imperium has radio, and once you have radio and enough computing power to handle the signal processing with sufficient bandwidth to be useful building Wi-Fi is incredibly straightforward. If you have even a brief description of Wi-Fi to tell you "this could be a useful thing to build" figuring out the rest is inevitable. That's just how engineering works, you take concepts that you have in one application and use them to build something to fill a different need.

Not having access to a complete Wi-Fi system to reverse-engineer is only a problem if you're stuck in an insane theocracy where innovation is heresy. The Imperium can't reinvent Wi-Fi from radio + ethernet because anyone who suggests tampering with the sacred artifacts and rituals will be executed and nobody actually understands how their radio or ethernet connection works. They have the user's manual that came in the box, but nothing more. And the only acceptable form of progress is recovering previous work, in the form of more blueprints and user's manuals to follow without understanding what they're doing.

Using Wi-Fi was just an example (because the Imperium most certainly has it, and far better than we do).

We're also assuming that the machines of M40 work using components that we would be able to recognize at least the function or design purpose of. For example, with even basic computer knowledge, you can take a PC apart and figure out "Ok, that's a RAM chip, that's a CPU, that's a hard drive" and so on.

In 40k, they have machines that build things that they know go into this slot of this other thing that is built by a machine and, at the end of the day, you get a functional cogitator. However, they have no idea what any of those component parts are in many cases. They just know that machines that look like that machine over there build them when you press that button, and that, if you don't have those parts, your cogitator doesn't work.

Crack one of those components open? You are either left with "unidentifiable tech parts" or, possibly, it blows up in your face and murders you. Then the machine that built it murders every living creature within 5 LY because you just killed its baby.

Given that the tech base was so royally fethed sideways and lubeless, there are massive holes in mankind's understanding of their technology. During the War of the Iron Men, and then again in the Horus Heresy, all records of several major sciences, as well as all the people who knew even the slightest bit about it, were either destroyed/killed or fled to the Eye of Terror, where they threw that science away because magic is better.

As shown in the article I linked at the top, or one of the articles linked within it, new understandings in one science can actually cause major regressions in other sciences, especially when the understanding of one or both is imperfect. In the case of 40k, now that they understand, to some degree, what Daemons are, and how freaking dangerous they are, they are reluctant to perform actions that may offend a Machine Spirit, because a powerful Machine Spirit can end worlds, even if there are as-yet-unknown differences between Daemons or Machine Spirits... because they don't know, but they can't afford to lose an entire Forge World because they were mucking about taking things apart.

Every time this thread pops up I always mean to chime in.

If anyone wants to see how the decline of a great empire breeds almost exactly this kind of religious tech worship and fundamental lack of understanding should read "Foundation" by Asimov

 Peregrine wrote:


But the point is that if you are willing to do science and engineering instead of executing anyone who tries for heresy those missing things will be rebuilt over thousands of years. For example, we know the Imperium has radio, and once you have radio and enough computing power to handle the signal processing with sufficient bandwidth to be useful building Wi-Fi is incredibly straightforward. If you have even a brief description of Wi-Fi to tell you "this could be a useful thing to build" figuring out the rest is inevitable. That's just how engineering works, you take concepts that you have in one application and use them to build something to fill a different need.

Not having access to a complete Wi-Fi system to reverse-engineer is only a problem if you're stuck in an insane theocracy where innovation is heresy. The Imperium can't reinvent Wi-Fi from radio + ethernet because anyone who suggests tampering with the sacred artifacts and rituals will be executed and nobody actually understands how their radio or ethernet connection works. They have the user's manual that came in the box, but nothing more. And the only acceptable form of progress is recovering previous work, in the form of more blueprints and user's manuals to follow without understanding what they're doing.

Even in your example of wi-fi, do you know how much science acts as a foundation. Wi-fi is an application of a literal mountain of science. If you removed the mountain and kept the computers and radio, you are right, wi-fi can probably be extended from them. But what about anything after wifi? How do you propose to progress beyond without the scientific foundation? You dont.

Experimentation? Because if you lack the theoretical basis, thats what you have to do. One of the causes for the technological revolution is a massive base of theory to draw applications from. Take that away, and it goes back to trial and error experimentation. Qualitative style of advancement rather than quantitative analysis. And thats slow going...and when you are playing with things like plasma guns, probably extremely dangerous going.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

kungfujew wrote:
Every time this thread pops up I always mean to chime in.

If anyone wants to see how the decline of a great empire breeds almost exactly this kind of religious tech worship and fundamental lack of understanding should read "Foundation" by Asimov

A real world example of this very thing is the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine).

For those who think the problem lies solely with the Ad Mechs dislike of studying I point you to this little point of info from the Skitarii codex; "After the Battle of Macragge, a splinter fleet of Hive Fleet Behemoth winds it's way into the Skittarii-held Daugel Helix. Using the knowledge recovered from the Tyran datax-files, the Skittarii fight back.... A triumphalist datax-files is compiled and sent to the nearby forge world of Accatran, where it is swiftly filed away in the Archive Anomalis and forgotten."

Also a lot of people seem to forget why the Ad Mech acts like it does, it more then they just don't know or that they refuse the learn it that they fell that they don't have to. They were founded near the beginning of the Age of Strife with the goal of preserving the knowledge of the Dark Age. They feel they don't have to learn anything from the tech they have because there creed tells them that all knowledge already exists in the form of lost tech from the Dark Age and to suggest otherwise would (in their minds) invalidate all their work so the main body of them suppresses it.

The AdMech is not ignorant. They are just sensible, reasonable people trying to recover and preserve what has been lost in an insensible, unreasonable universe.
Forging their technological knowledge into myths, legends and religious dogmas is the only way it is going to survive the millennia of chaos and war.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The AdMech is not ignorant. They are just sensible, reasonable people trying to recover and preserve what has been lost in an insensible, unreasonable universe.
Forging their technological knowledge into myths, legends and religious dogmas is the only way it is going to survive the millennia of chaos and war.

This. Combined with a desire for secrecy that makes the Dark Angels look downright welcoming.

Peregrine wrote:The problem is that the Imperium has had thousands of years to attempt to rebuild their knowledge. And they've had the advantage of working examples of their technology to attempt to reverse-engineer, or at least give a target to aim for in trying to reconstruct the process that got them to that level. They're in their current state because they're an insane theocracy that believes that progress is heresy, not because the task is impossible.

You do realize that, in 40k, progress leads to Chaos, right? Or pissed of machine-spirits, which proceed to gun everybody down. When you tamper with Land Raider X, you run the risk of it coming out and gunning down the assembly line workers, destroying ancient machinery, and, worse yet, stopping other Land Raiders from being produced. The AdMech is like this because technology does go rogue; it does try to kill people. Machines can be possessed by Daemons, Machine Spirits can be corrupted by Chaos, the religious dogma of the Mechanicum is all that prevents their machines from going full-on Chaos.

 dusara217 wrote:
You do realize that, in 40k, progress leads to Chaos, right?

It does no such thing. The Tau are progressing just fine without any Chaos problems.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
You do realize that, in 40k, progress leads to Chaos, right?

It does no such thing. The Tau are progressing just fine without any Chaos problems.

The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

But why should this apply to their technology? If Chaos can corrupt and possess a lasgun then surely it should be able to do the same to a pulse rifle.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

But why should this apply to their technology? If Chaos can corrupt and possess a lasgun then surely it should be able to do the same to a pulse rifle.

But does a pulse rifle have a machine spirit in the same way all human STC-derived technology has? Besides, if they have no Warp presence, why would Chaos even notice, much less be interested in messing with the Tau?

The Void Dragon is in all likelihood the corrupting force acting on Imperial technology, not Chaos. Because the Void Dragon is trapped inside Mars, its ability to influence other species' tech is limited.

Except the degradation of technology is Imperium-wide, not just that coming out of Mars.

The Tau are not really "advancing", not really. They build bigger versions of things they already have. That's a microscopic increase when compared to, say, going from firing a ferrous slug out of a ship-borne railgun to firing a singularity charge.

the42up wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


But the point is that if you are willing to do science and engineering instead of executing anyone who tries for heresy those missing things will be rebuilt over thousands of years. For example, we know the Imperium has radio, and once you have radio and enough computing power to handle the signal processing with sufficient bandwidth to be useful building Wi-Fi is incredibly straightforward. If you have even a brief description of Wi-Fi to tell you "this could be a useful thing to build" figuring out the rest is inevitable. That's just how engineering works, you take concepts that you have in one application and use them to build something to fill a different need.

Not having access to a complete Wi-Fi system to reverse-engineer is only a problem if you're stuck in an insane theocracy where innovation is heresy. The Imperium can't reinvent Wi-Fi from radio + ethernet because anyone who suggests tampering with the sacred artifacts and rituals will be executed and nobody actually understands how their radio or ethernet connection works. They have the user's manual that came in the box, but nothing more. And the only acceptable form of progress is recovering previous work, in the form of more blueprints and user's manuals to follow without understanding what they're doing.

Even in your example of wi-fi, do you know how much science acts as a foundation. Wi-fi is an application of a literal mountain of science. If you removed the mountain and kept the computers and radio, you are right, wi-fi can probably be extended from them. But what about anything after wifi? How do you propose to progress beyond without the scientific foundation? You dont.

Plus, imagine that you're a bunch of cavemen who stumble upon a wifi setup. Somehow, out of pure luck, you manage to get the computer working by hitting random buttons. You don't know why the computer works or if there are other ways of getting it to work, just that this given combo of random buttons allows you to do certain, cool things. You can now do certain, cool things.

Then Bob decides to try and tamper with the wifi. He doesn't know what he's doing, so he certainly either breaks the hardware taking it apart, puts it back together improperly, or screws up the IP address or some similar complex software setting, because he's a caveman, not a computer scientist or engineer. Now your wifi doesn't work. Because of bob, that cool thing you discovered doesn't work.

Then you find a second computer with wifi set up. You figure out that your previous random button combo works on this computer as well, maybe with some minor variation. But are you going to let Bob break it again? It's not like he learned anything other than "maybe I shouldn't take this apart". No, you're not going to let anyone near that.

And if we're talking about incredibly potent technology that can lift your civilization from being cavemen to being a potentially galaxy spanning empire, not only are you going to keep bob away, but you're going to go to great lengths to protect people from messing things up, because you now have machines that can heal the sick and dying, allow you to gather food, improve your quality of life, protect your caveman tribe, etc. So you tell everyone to stay the heck away from your magical technology so that no one breaks it.

I'm still convinced much of the lost tech by the ad mech is an act to keep themselves generally, and more accurately individual forgeworlds protected and important.

Part IP protection and monopolisation, part scared (correctly) of AI, part scared (and rightly so) of Chaos. If building a router could possibly result in a daemonic entity taking over the Internet, you'd be pretty careful about such matters.

the42up wrote:

Now to put these equations into action, I use a computer programming language called R. This is a language that was written to just write programs/scripts for statistics.

Fixed that for you.

Also R is awesome in it's sheer amount of inbuilt libraries and the knitting tool for the IDE is lovely.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

But why should this apply to their technology? If Chaos can corrupt and possess a lasgun then surely it should be able to do the same to a pulse rifle.

It should and it probably will - but IMO the Tau should worry more about their AIs getting possessed or being corrupted and them/drones/ ships going all Terminator on them!

 dusara217 wrote:

Peregrine wrote:The problem is that the Imperium has had thousands of years to attempt to rebuild their knowledge. And they've had the advantage of working examples of their technology to attempt to reverse-engineer, or at least give a target to aim for in trying to reconstruct the process that got them to that level. They're in their current state because they're an insane theocracy that believes that progress is heresy, not because the task is impossible.

You do realize that, in 40k, progress leads to Chaos, right? Or pissed of machine-spirits, which proceed to gun everybody down. When you tamper with Land Raider X, you run the risk of it coming out and gunning down the assembly line workers, destroying ancient machinery, and, worse yet, stopping other Land Raiders from being produced. The AdMech is like this because technology does go rogue; it does try to kill people. Machines can be possessed by Daemons, Machine Spirits can be corrupted by Chaos, the religious dogma of the Mechanicum is all that prevents their machines from going full-on Chaos.

So what? The same thing exists today; things go wrong. Thats part of engineering. If you dont have any risk then youll never have any reward.
Sure, the risks might be larger in the Imperiums time than now, but they certainly dont outweigh the gains.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
You do realize that, in 40k, progress leads to Chaos, right?

It does no such thing. The Tau are progressing just fine without any Chaos problems.

The Tau barely have a Warp presence, if any. They could not progress to Chaos even if they wanted to.

Yes they do, the Tau presence in the warp is minor, but they are still terrorized by things like Pariahs. Also it's not like that it matters how strong your presence is in the warp if Chaos decides it directly wants to screw your species over. Machines have no presence in the warp at all, and Chaos corrupts them just fine.

 Psienesis wrote:
Except the degradation of technology is Imperium-wide, not just that coming out of Mars.

The Tau are not really "advancing", not really. They build bigger versions of things they already have. That's a microscopic increase when compared to, say, going from firing a ferrous slug out of a ship-borne railgun to firing a singularity charge.

They've had the same tanks, rifles, aircraft and armor in service for a couple of centuries now. The only advances they've made are, like you said, making bigger suits.

It is Plothammer, it also depends on the magos, like the inquisition has factions that have different views on how best to protect the Imperium, There a magos's? that are quite progressive and others that follow the tenets to the letter, also the Emperor forbid AI because he was there when Skynet happened

I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

 Psychopski wrote:
I see some similarities between our own world history, Ancient Rome, the Pyramids of Egypt versus 40K, lost knowledge and the Adeptus Mechanicus. Also the similarities between the fall of the Roman Empire leading us into the Dark ages... compared to the events that occurred in the "pre 40K" universe that lead humanity into "Old Night". A great power falls, many lines of communications are cut, much knowledge is lost, war and Chaos follows.

As far as our world history, there's no telling how much knowledge was lost when the Library at Alexandria, Egypt burned. We are still perplexed and wonder exactly how the Pyramids were constructed. Many 3rd world countries didn't have an effective system of running potable water or subterranean sewers until the 1960s, a system which the Romans had perfected almost 2000 years prior.

The Dark Ages is a complete fallacy. No knowledge was lost, many technologies marched onward without any hiccups, education continued to spread, and the Monks preserved any knowledge in danger of being lost by copying everything for future generations.