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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I posted the relevent rules already in this thread, but here's it again:

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

The bolded part is in the BRB, that's not me emphasizing it. It is the only rule in the Psychic phase that specifies "unit" rather than "Psyker" or "Psyker unit". Which means that if two Psykers are in the same unit they cannot cast the same power that has already been casted by another model in the same unit.

Really? Because you quoted, but keep missing this line:

PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS
For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any UNIT with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

That sure seems to be specifying "unit" to me.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As to Warp Charge generation, I will post the relevent rule again:

GENERATE WARP CHARGE
At the beginning of each Psychic phase, the player whose turn it is rolls a D6. Then, each player takes a number of dice equal to the result of the D6 roll; those dice are their Warp Charge pool. Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop (including those embarked on Transports) and adds that many dice to their Warp Charge pool.
For example, Andy rolls a D6 at the start of his Psychic phase and rolls a 3. Andy has three Psyker units currently on the table: a Primaris Psyker with Mastery Level 2, an Astropath with Mastery Level 1 and a unit of Wyrdvane Psykers with Mastery Level 1. Andy therefore has 7 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2+1+1=7). Andy’s opponent has only a single Psyker unit currently on the table: a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer with Mastery Level 2. Andy’s opponent therefore has 5 dice in his Warp Charge pool (3+2=5).

This is one of those times intent is written in the BRB via the example. PML are accounted for separately. While others are correct in that there are no dircet rules covering how to treat multiple Psykers in the same unit, there are direct rules under Independent Characters that tell us IC do not share their rules with the unit nor does the unit share its rules with the IC unless the rules themselves give permission to be shared. Neither the Psyker rule nor the Brotherhood of Psykers rule grant permission to be shared, nor do they tell us not to use those rules in a combined unit. As per the actual rules on generating Warp Charges and casting powers, PMLs are treated separately on a model per model basis while powers actually cast are restricted by the unit.

Really? Because it is the PML of the UNIT that is used, "(e)ach player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop", and we (both you and I) have already established that a "Psyker or Psyker unit" in these rules are a UNIT with one of the Psyker special rules. So, it is only the PML of the unit, not models, that is used. And we have yet to see a quote where the PML of the unit is combined when a Psyker IC joins another Psyker unit.

As for the example, again, not once is it mentioned in that example that any of those ICs have been joined to a unit, either an otherwise non-Psyker unit or Brotherhood unit. This makes using this example to support your case completely useless.

So, while it is a good House Rule, and I'm all for it, it is not RAW. If that definition line stated "model" with the Psyker or Psyker Pilot rule and/or unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, I would be in agreement with you, but it doesn't. These rules are all about the units.

So I find this debate extremely interesting because I have never seen anyone play differently then the following.. including at larger tournaments..

Mastery levels are counted separately - a "unit" of ML3 + ML2 + BoP ML1 you get 6 warp charges.

Casting pyshic powers: as you can only cast once per "unit" say force... that entire unit will get it or wont.. doesnt matter which psycher specifically tried to cast it. The one who does suffers the perils. (unless it was the BoP which would be allocated randomly to them... my local we actually pick which model before casting.. eases the argument for range and perils results)

If you do not follow this way of thinking.. it undermines all of the recent psycher councils that were just released.

Eldar seerstars have been around forever and I have never seen this issue come up. Same with GK Draigo + librarian stars..

That's because people are generally smarter than computers and can alter the program to suit your needs or desires, and this Psychic Phase is barely a year and a half old.

It is recognized that the Psyker rules are crap, so it is a general consensus to make them not crap. As I said earlier, how Jeffersonian has written his view is how I've seen people play it, and I have no problems with it as a nigh-universal House Rule.

Not everyone is aware of this, though, so it is good to know the base rules to minimize potential conflicts before they happen.

Charistoph wrote:
That's because people are generally smarter than computers and can alter the program to suit your needs or desires, and this Psychic Phase is barely a year and a half old.

It is recognized that the Psyker rules are crap, so it is a general consensus to make them not crap. As I said earlier, how Jeffersonian has written his view is how I've seen people play it, and I have no problems with it as a nigh-universal House Rule.

Not everyone is aware of this, though, so it is good to know the base rules to minimize potential conflicts before they happen.

Yeah for sure. I have reread these rules numerous times (as well as other rules) and have never thought of it not actually working the way I see it play.

So not saying one side is correct or not here... but it was mentioned an IC psyker joining a BoP unit being weird... what if.. its just a unit of IC psykers.

My interpretation from everything you guys have said above.. that if you have a "unit" of IC Psykers..... their master level is then 0 for generating warp charges...

And thats pretty silly..And where my opinion does sway towards jeffersonian's refrence to ICs joining units don't share special rules etc etc, and that may come into play in the understanding of what things are generating warp charges.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So not saying one side is correct or not here... but it was mentioned an IC psyker joining a BoP unit being weird... what if.. its just a unit of IC psykers.

My interpretation from everything you guys have said above.. that if you have a "unit" of IC Psykers..... their master level is then 0 for generating warp charges...

And thats pretty silly..And where my opinion does sway towards jeffersonian's refrence to ICs joining units don't share special rules etc etc, and that may come into play in the understanding of what things are generating warp charges.

It technically depends on who joined whom. A Primaris Psyker joining the Ultramarine Librarian would use the Librarian's PML, as they are the Librarian unit, while having the Librarian join the Primaris would set it to being the Primaris' PML, as it is a Primaris unit.

Charistoph wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So not saying one side is correct or not here... but it was mentioned an IC psyker joining a BoP unit being weird... what if.. its just a unit of IC psykers.

My interpretation from everything you guys have said above.. that if you have a "unit" of IC Psykers..... their master level is then 0 for generating warp charges...

And thats pretty silly..And where my opinion does sway towards jeffersonian's refrence to ICs joining units don't share special rules etc etc, and that may come into play in the understanding of what things are generating warp charges.

It technically depends on who joined whom. A Primaris Psyker joining the Ultramarine Librarian would use the Librarian's PML, as they are the Librarian unit, while having the Librarian join the Primaris would set it to being the Primaris' PML, as it is a Primaris unit.

That's not in the rules. Please cite where you think it says that in the rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

It technically depends on who joined whom. A Primaris Psyker joining the Ultramarine Librarian would use the Librarian's PML, as they are the Librarian unit, while having the Librarian join the Primaris would set it to being the Primaris' PML, as it is a Primaris unit.

That's not in the rules. Please cite where you think it says that in the rules.

Really? You've quoted them twice now, have you forgotten?

The Psyker ICs come with a PML, and are a unit of themselves when purchased. When an IC joins another unit it becomes part of that unit. We are not told to combine the PMLs of a unit, just use the PML of the unit. A Primaris joined to a Librarian constitutes a Librarian unit containing a Primaris model and a Librarian model. The PML of the Librarian unit is already established when the Librarian is purchased, and we are not given permission to change it because another Psyker joins it.

That is the literal take from the rules as has been quoted by you and can be found in the IC special rules. So either you have misquoted, or you are holding back quotes that would prove your case.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As per the actual rules on generating Warp Charges and casting powers, PMLs are treated separately on a model per model basis...

How do you get from a rule telling you to add the Mastery levels of your psyker units to thinking it means to add the Mastery levels of your psyker models?

The example you're quoting does nothing to set the precedent you're looking for, as it's not talking about an IC joined to another unit. The Mastery levels are all counted separately in that example because they're all separate units.

The moment the IC joins another unit, he is no longer a unit with the psyker rule. He still HAS that rule... But he is a part of a bigger unit, not a unit himself.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

This is one of those times intent is written in the BRB via the example. PML are accounted for separately. While others are correct in that there are no dircet rules covering how to treat multiple Psykers in the same unit, there are direct rules under Independent Characters that tell us IC do not share their rules with the unit nor does the unit share its rules with the IC unless the rules themselves give permission to be shared. Neither the Psyker rule nor the Brotherhood of Psykers rule grant permission to be shared, nor do they tell us not to use those rules in a combined unit. As per the actual rules on generating Warp Charges and casting powers, PMLs are treated separately on a model per model basis while powers actually cast are restricted by the unit.

SJ

except the BRB does not differentiate between units and single psyker models in the psychic phase at all.

"For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."

And it does not specificly state, that for counting Warpcharges you have to count them seperatly, because "Psyker units" can once again be the whole unit or every single model with the psyker special rule.

I am not going to quote.... to many things to reply to.

First, in the brb example... how do we know they are separate units as in actually 3 units on the table.. we really don't.. and that is because of the loose way of using "model" and "unit" throughout the brb.

*edit* To clarify what I mean.. It says he has 3 psyker units.. which in the rule it defines a "psyker unit" as a "psyker" (i think this is what jeffersonian is trying to say).. Thus, you can't say for sure these are three seperate units on the table.. it could be all one unit.


Second, What is "joining"... this argument your using of one way joining.. is the same one people said was not true when ruled against O'Vesa being in a squad with another IC (aka there is no one way joining; didnt matter who joined the squad first; O'Vesa cant be in a squad with another IC **Ovesa is an ICMC**)

Third, and the most important thing, I think we can all agree the rule is not clear.. no sense in going back and forth about it anymore =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, I think both sides ultimately have grounds for their interpretation.

I know some people do not play by these rules.. I know I do not always.. but does the ITC have anything to say about it?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
I am not going to quote.... to many things to reply to.

First, in the brb example... how do we know they are separate units as in actually 3 units on the table.. we really don't.. and that is because of the loose way of using "model" and "unit" throughout the brb.

*edit* To clarify what I mean.. It says he has 3 psyker units.. which in the rule it defines a "psyker unit" as a "psyker" (i think this is what jeffersonian is trying to say).. Thus, you can't say for sure these are three seperate units on the table.. it could be all one unit.

By the use of "Psyker Unit" which was defined at the beginning of the chapter as a unit, and by the fact that it does not list them as joined at any point in the example. To assume they are joined as one unit is assuming data that is counter to data presented.

Second, What is "joining"... this argument your using of one way joining.. is the same one people said was not true when ruled against O'Vesa being in a squad with another IC (aka there is no one way joining; didnt matter who joined the squad first; O'Vesa cant be in a squad with another IC **Ovesa is an ICMC**)

There are four general ways of joining defined in the IC rules: being declared joined in Reserves during deployment, being deployed in to coherency during deployment, moving in to coherency with a unit, or by having a unit moved in to coherency with the IC and declared joined.

As for O'Vesa, an IC cannot join him or any unit he is with, but he can join an IC and any unit it is with, because the unit does not have an MC until he joins it. So, a bad example of a counter argument.

Third, and the most important thing, I think we can all agree the rule is not clear.. no sense in going back and forth about it anymore =)

It is clearly stupid and restrictive, but the rest is actually clearer than you may think. The problem comes by people confusing the levels of interactions of units, models, and ICs. If you want to see a real kerfuffle, search "Skyhammer" on how bad it really is.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
First, in the brb example... how do we know they are separate units as in actually 3 units on the table.. we really don't.. and that is because of the loose way of using "model" and "unit" throughout the brb.

Nope, we know that they are separate units because it refers to them as separate units.

*edit* To clarify what I mean.. It says he has 3 psyker units.. which in the rule it defines a "psyker unit" as a "psyker"

Indeed. And in the psychic phase, the term 'psyker' means 'unit with the psyker, psychic pilot or Brotherhood of x' rule.

Either term - 'psyker' or 'psyker unit' - refers, in the psychic phase rules, to a unit, not an individual model with the psyker rule.

So yes, as the rules are written they can only be referring to three separate units on the table.

Third, and the most important thing, I think we can all agree the rule is not clear.. no sense in going back and forth about it anymore =)

The problem, at least insofar as the IC joined to a Brotherhood unit issue goes, isn't that the rules are unclear. While they're unclear on other issues (like non-Brotherhood units with different Mastery levels, or IC psykers joining non-psyker units and vice-versa) on this particular issue they are not at all unclear. Just stupid, and most likely not written in a way that reflects how they were actually probably supposed to work.