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Greetings. I've got a quandary, and would like to get a couple of outside opinions on which of these two builds looks more effective generally speaking.

First, I'll explain the 'standard' wargear my Captain has on him that will remain the same between both build ideas.

A Blood Angels Captain, equipped with: Artificer Armor, Jump Pack, The Crown Angelic (Relic), Frag & Krak Grenades, and a Hand Flamer.

Build one has him armed with a second Relic, The Valor's Edge, (Power Sword, ST: User, AP:2) and Digital Weapons. This costs a grand total of 30 points for both weapons and makes the character cost 175 points total.

Pro's: +1 attack from the Hand Flamer + Valor's Edge both being one handed, Decent odds of wounding on the charge with several attacks (5 total on the charge, 3 Base, plus one for being armed for hand to hand, and + 1 for charging) at ST:5 thanks to Furious Charge and AP:2, swinging at initiative. This also has a re-roll on one of the failed to-wound rolls thanks to the digital weapons in every combat.
Con's: Only ST:5 on the charge, otherwise he's ST:4, with a single re-roll on one failed to-wound roll. Granted, they're AP:2 wounds, but at ST:4 it'll be tough to do much versus high toughness opponents (T:5 or higher) and against MEQ he'll only get ~1 or 2 wounds through on average with his 4 base attacks, counting the Digital Weapons re-roll.

Build two replaces the Valor's Edge and digital weapons with a standard Relic Blade. This costs 25 points versus 30 for build one, and puts the Captain at 170 points total, so a few hairs cheaper

Pro's: +2 strength all the time, with +3 Strength on the charge. Much better odds of wounding anything he would swing against, especially on the charge. Also this weapon can benefit from the Artisan of War Blood Angels Warlord Trait, which lets one Non Relic weapon be made master crafted. Kind of incidental but it is worth mentioning. Prolonged combats result in more wounds on average thanks to the higher base strength, with ~2 wounds being the norm vs. ~1 above
Con's: -1 overall attack, 3 base attacks versus 4 base attacks on build one above since the Relic Blade is a two handed weapon. The Relic Blade is also AP:3 versus AP:2 on the Valor's Edge, so 2+ saves become a problem. No re-rolls either, (barring the master crafted warlord trait above) but wounding is easier.

So, what say you, Dakka? I'm curious what folks think is the stronger build generally speaking.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and feedback. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

What unit does he fly with? What role do you need him to play in it?

Personally, I've been disappointed with the relic blade's performance. I've switched over to Valor's Edge for the extra attack. Jury's still out.

In my experience, replace Captain with Chaplain, Sanguinary Priest or Librarian. Far more useful, buffy, killy and just fun.

Both options are really expensive. I like to aim at ~120 points for my HQ if I'm taking a single guy, unless I'm going for special characters. Reason being a Blood Angels character isn't a killing machine like your Death Company or Sanguinary Guard, he's a booster to the army that doesn't need to stand on his own.

What unit were you planning on running your Captain with? With Death Company I'd recommend a lot of attacks over high strength, but with Sanguinary Guard for example, getting ap2-3 attacks would matter more.

From what you've posted though, I'd recommend the first option if you were unsure of who he'll run with. Take the extra attacks and the AP2

Crimson Devil wrote:What unit does he fly with? What role do you need him to play in it?

Personally, I've been disappointed with the relic blade's performance. I've switched over to Valor's Edge for the extra attack. Jury's still out.

Hey ya Crimson.

He normally rolls with a command squad armed with three storm shields and one hidden power fist on a storm shield veteran. The role he normally plays is a combat threat alongside a couple of other close assault threats such a Death Company and a Drop Pod Death Company Dreadnought. I want him to be good at hitting other combat threats and doing damage while being moderately resilient to return attacks with Artificer Armor + Feel No Pain and 3++ Storm Shield saves conveyed through Look Out Sir! rolls.

I'd love to hear your input more on the relic blade and how it's been under performing for you as I've been running my Captain with the Valor's Edge of late and added Digital Weapons to try and off-set only being ST:4 most of the time. Do let me know how Valor's Edge treats you. I've ben impressed with it against MEQ and T:3 of course but against T:5 or higher it turns into a very pretty wet noodle most o the time and even on the charge it only gets a couple of wounds in if I'm very lucky with the re-rolls.

diepotato47 wrote:In my experience, replace Captain with Chaplain, Sanguinary Priest or Librarian. Far more useful, buffy, killy and just fun.

Both options are really expensive. I like to aim at ~120 points for my HQ if I'm taking a single guy, unless I'm going for special characters. Reason being a Blood Angels character isn't a killing machine like your Death Company or Sanguinary Guard, he's a booster to the army that doesn't need to stand on his own.

What unit were you planning on running your Captain with? With Death Company I'd recommend a lot of attacks over high strength, but with Sanguinary Guard for example, getting ap2-3 attacks would matter more.

From what you've posted though, I'd recommend the first option if you were unsure of who he'll run with. Take the extra attacks and the AP2

Hey ya Diepotato, thanks for the input.

I do normally run a Librarian as well that usually runs alongside my Captain, attached to the Command Squad as well and they are quite buffy I intend to run Lemartes as an Elite choice as well for Death Company buffing purposes and to keep the HQ slots free for the Captain & Librarian.

Normally I keep my Independent Characters around the 125 to 130 point mark or lower (Special Characters not-withstanding as you said) but make an exception for my Captain, as I want him to be as effective as he can be and don't mind spending the extra points on wargear to give that effectiveness.

As I said I'm running him with an Honor Guard at present and it contains the Company Champion with a power sword & Bolt Pistol+Combat Shield, a Power Fist, Bolt Pistol & Storm Shield Veteran, 2x Storm Shield, Bolt Pistol & Chainsword Veterans & a Sanguinary Novitiate with Bolt Pistol & Chainsword.

I normally run with the Valor's Edge since the added AP:2 is helpful, but the squad tends to get bogged down against higher toughness units such as Wraiths and Thunderwolf Cavalry since most of the squad is wounding on 5+ unless I get the charge off, and even if I do charge I;m wounding on 4+ vs these units. Hence why I'm thinking Relic blade as an option.

If I get 4 attacks and 3 hits but none of them wound because I need a 5+ to get past their toughness, then running a Relic Blade and wounding on 3+ for those 2 hits out of 3 attacks vs a Toughness 5 opponent at least nets me actual wounds that my opponent then at least has to roll saves against.

I'm going to playtest the Relic Blade option for a few games and see which one performs better or if it winds up being six of one vs. a half dozen of the other scenario.

I appreciate the feedback, and will post here with hard numbers once I can playtest a bit more to compare & contrast.

Hopefully others will add their thoughts in the mean time. Take it easy for now folks.

-Red__Thirst-

The only thing a Captain brings to the table is I5 and the option to take artificer armor and/or storm shield.

The problem with the Captain is, after equipping him, you realize you could've spent points on Dante instead and then have an actual support character in the HQ slots instead.

I've got three storm shields in his command squad and the look out sir! rolls on 2+ to help keep him alive. The initiative five is nice, and on the charge that jumps to initiative six, or even Initiative seven if you roll the +1 innate initiative on the Blood Angels Warlord Traits table.

And Slayer-Fan, I've explained this in a different thread before, but in my gaming group, taking a Lord of War (of any type) is not done unless you're playing a big game and that's only if you clear it with your opponent so they know they can bring a Lord of War of their own. I want to field a Captain, and would like feedback on the build options presented above.

If you don't want to contribute anything to the discussion, then kindly refrain from posting. Thank you.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I did contribute. You simply didn't like what I had to say, and I don't care how your group does house rules. I'm telling it like it is.

After you spend 170-175 on the Captain, you begin to realize about 50 more points gives you:
1. Another Wound
2. EW
3. A guaranteed Warlord Trait (though how valuable you consider it is a different story)
4. S6 at AP2 at:
5. I6

So if we want a melee beatstick, and chances are we were buying a Librarian/Priest/Chaplain anyway to join to their squad, there's simply no reason to invest in a Captain. Simple as that.
The only advantage to the Captain is he can take a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist, and that wastes two pros of being a Blood Angel:
1. +1S, when S8 will have ID'd or wounded most things anyway, ergo wasting Furious Charge
2. +1I, which gets undermined by Unwieldy.

I prefer build one. Having that ap2 at initiative is great for a captain (I'm a bit spoiled from the Burning Blade but still). Relic blades have always disappointed me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I did contribute. You simply didn't like what I had to say, and I don't care how your group does house rules. I'm telling it like it is.

After you spend 170-175 on the Captain, you begin to realize about 50 more points gives you:
1. Another Wound
2. EW
3. A guaranteed Warlord Trait (though how valuable you consider it is a different story)
4. S6 at AP2 at:
5. I6

So if we want a melee beatstick, and chances are we were buying a Librarian/Priest/Chaplain anyway to join to their squad, there's simply no reason to invest in a Captain. Simple as that.
The only advantage to the Captain is he can take a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist, and that wastes two pros of being a Blood Angel:
1. +1S, when S8 will have ID'd or wounded most things anyway, ergo wasting Furious Charge
2. +1I, which gets undermined by Unwieldy.

I know Dante is a beast. I have his model and have fielded him before. You're missing the point of my discussion entirely however.

Allow me to give you an example, since apparently words are hard for you.

Me: Man, I really like the color Red, and the color Blue. I don't know which one would work best when painted on the walls in this room. I don't really like any other colors, what do people think of the colors, please give me some input.

You: Green is awesome and you should use Green because it's better than Red and Blue put together.

Me: .... Really?

You: I don't care that you don't like it, it's the best choice and you should go with because here are all the reasons it's better.

Me:.. But I said I don't want to use any other color but Red, or Blue. Did you miss that?

You: Your house rules are dumb and I'm just telling you the truth that Green is best. Why even invest in Blue or Red?

Me: Because I LIKE THE COLORS BLUE AND RED... and WANT to use them instead of any other color, including Green.

You: Whatever, I'm "contributing".

See how you come off, Slayer-Fan?

It's really pedantic and makes you look like a proper . So please, offer your input on the Captain build, or kindly refrain from posting in the discussion.

Thank you.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

That's not even close to the same thing as I actually gave reasoning.

There's nothing a Captain brings to a Blood Angels army that they won't get elsewhere. So if you want a build for a Captain, spend 220 on Dante and pretend he's your Captain. Leave the HQ slots for something actually useful.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Crimson Devil wrote:What unit does he fly with? What role do you need him to play in it?

Personally, I've been disappointed with the relic blade's performance. I've switched over to Valor's Edge for the extra attack. Jury's still out.

Hey ya Crimson.

He normally rolls with a command squad armed with three storm shields and one hidden power fist on a storm shield veteran. The role he normally plays is a combat threat alongside a couple of other close assault threats such a Death Company and a Drop Pod Death Company Dreadnought. I want him to be good at hitting other combat threats and doing damage while being moderately resilient to return attacks with Artificer Armor + Feel No Pain and 3++ Storm Shield saves conveyed through Look Out Sir! rolls.

'd love to hear your input more on the relic blade and how it's been under performing for yoy, as I've been running my Captain with the Valor's Edge of late and added Digital Weapons to try and off-set only being ST:4 most of the time. Do let me know how Valor's Edge treats you. I've ben impressed with it against MEQ and T:3 of course but against T:5 or higher it turns into a very pretty wet noodle most o the time and even on the charge it only gets a couple of wounds in if I'm very lucky with the re-rolls.

-Red__Thirst-

I think it is mostly expectations and some bad luck. I previously used a Captain with a thunder hammer and the damage he can do is quite impressive. I use a command squad with hidden powerfist also, so I decided to take advantage of the high initiative and switched to a relic blade. Even built a new Captain for it. I was hoping for a better result. On paper it is a superior choice to a thunder hammer, but so far I've gotten jack and gak. And Jack left town. I don't even want to finish painting him. We'll see if Valor's Edge will treat me better.

Assuming I don't have to work, I'll be using it against Raven Guard on Friday. So I'll let you know.



As to why someone would use a captain over any other choice; it is simply a preference I developed back in 3rd edition. My favorite HQ are Librarians, but I've had some epic games with my Captains and JP command squad over the years and now they are a signature BA squad for me. Strangely enough I dislike Chaplains.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That's not even close to the same thing as I actually gave reasoning.

There's nothing a Captain brings to a Blood Angels army that they won't get elsewhere. So if you want a build for a Captain, spend 220 on Dante and pretend he's your Captain. Leave the HQ slots for something actually useful.

Yea, if you read the thread here, it is.

And apparently words are still hard for you, so let me break it down once again: My gaming group doesn't field Lords of War unless we're playing big games (2,000 points) or agree to bring them to smaller games before-hand. I'm currently playing at 1,250 to 1,500 points most matches, give or take, with the very occasional foray into 1,750 point territory. If I wanted to field Dante, I could, and likely will in the future as I love the character and the model despite it's age (I need to strip and re-paint my Dante first, however). Is it a house rule? Yep. Does that mean I'm going to flagrantly ignore it and bring a Lord of War against my opponent without clearing it beforehand? Nope, it sure as doesn't. Lords of War are awesome and I love the fact that BA have a cool Lord of War option that's bot fun and effective, but I'm not going to run him sight-unseen or 'surprise' my opponent with him. That'd be a TFG move.

So, that all being said, stop being a and give your opinion about which Captain build in the opening post you like better, or kindly sod off.

Crimson Devil wrote:I think it is mostly expectations and some bad luck. I previously used a Captain with a thunder hammer and the damage he can do is quite impressive. I use a command squad with hidden powerfist also, so I decided to take advantage of the high initiative and switched to a relic blade. Even built a new Captain for it. I was hoping for a better result. On paper it is a superior choice to a thunder hammer, but so far I've gotten jack and gak. And Jack left town. I don't even want to finish painting him. We'll see if Valor's Edge will treat me better.

Assuming I don't have to work, I'll be using it against Raven Guard on Friday. So I'll let you know.



As to why someone would use a captain over any other choice; it is simply a preference I developed back in 3rd edition. My favorite HQ are Librarians, but I've had some epic games with my Captains and JP command squad over the years and now they are a signature BA squad for me. Strangely enough I dislike Chaplains.

See, I agree. Though I do love Chaplains, they've never been my go-to HQ choice. I've been using a Captain in my Blood Angels army since 3rd edition too and they just scream Blood Angels to me, especially when attached to a jump pack honor guard/command squad. It's always been my preference, with Librarians taking a very close second place and Sanguinary High Priests coming in a close third. Chaplains have their place, and I love the mythos and look of them (in fact, I'll be re-basing my 5th Edition chaplain and doing some touch-up work to him in the near future so I have one to field in smaller games) but they're the bottom of the totem pole as far as my HQ choices are concerned.

I too built up a new Captain model to replace the aging 3rd edition version I have had and used for years and years:



(More images in my gallery if interested; the Finished Blood Angels gallery specifically.)

Thankfully that weapon can work as both Valor's Edge and a plain 'ole Relic Blade, so I'm trying to playtest and see which build is more generally effective.

Best of luck in your game vs. Raven Guard if you get to play Friday! I hope it goes well and do please post here with your findings and results with the Valor's Edge build on your Captain. I also highly recommend investing the extra points to give your Captain Digital Weapons too, to help get wounds through on the targets. It's more expensive, but not much more and does help quite a lot in my experience.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Valor's Edge versus a Relic Blade essentially boils down to which is more useful to you; a high strength or AP2.

His command squad can deal with things that can't single him out, and has a power fist and storm shields, so....fine.

The time he really has to work for a living is when he's in a challenge - no Look Out Sir, and no timely interventions by his command squad.

I'd probably take Valor's Edge on these grounds, but it's dependent on the opponents you play.

are you more likely to find yourself in a challenge against an opponent that you really need a relic blade to wound..... Hive Tyrant, Greater Daemon, Nurgle Lord on Bike, or against an opponent in terminator or artificer plate?

That's the thing, I've got a challenge soaker in the form of the Company Champion (Which is a mandatory member in the command squad, and comes equipped with a standard power sword and a combat shield). The Champion MUST issue a challenge and MUST accept all challenges that are issued to the squad. It'll at least hopefully absorb the first challenge sent into the unit anyway, and allow the Captain to attack the squad vs. be tied up in a challenge.

Generally speaking, I'm generally dealing with 2+ Save characters that are my opponents death dealers/combat monsters. Though I also play Tyranids regularly as well as necrons, which means Wraiths. I also find myself pitted against Space Wolves frequently. So there's a lot of T:5/T:6 rolling around in my meta. I can generally deal with it thanks to volume of attacks, but I want my Captain to be able to carry his weight too.

Valor's Edge + Digital Weapons is my first choice, but I am not above trying out the Relic Blade and going for higher Strength and AP:3 to get wounds through.

I wish I had a Burning Blade analogue in the Blood Angels codex, but the closest thing we get is the Valor's Edge, which is good, but nowhere near as cool as the Burning Blade in my opinion.

More playtests will be had in the future and I'll see which one comes out on top, generally speaking. I'm also going to do some very basic math hammer to see which one looks stronger from a pure numbers perspective. I'll update here with what I find doing that.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Played today; 1850 pts Blood Angels (BSF) vs Raven Guard (Pinion Demi Co.) in an Eternal War: The Scouring. I won 5 to 4. Most of the action happened around the 4 pt objective per normal for this mission. The Captain did more work than normal for him. He personally accounted for 8 Raven Guard, a Land Speeder Storm, and a Razorback. Valor's Edge didn't matter so much as the extra attack, so I think a power sword would've worked just as well. I'm going to stick with it for a while, see what happens.

I guess I have to finish painting him now.

Nicely done man! Also, Great Captain mini as well, that base is awesome, and the pose is excellent too.

I almost went with that power sword over the one I ended up using, but it didn't suit the pose I was going for quite as much. Great choice for it.

I'm glad to hear your game went well & you pulled a win off. I'm Going to be getting a game in soon myself I hope, though this time of year is always tough with the holidays happening. I'm going to be trying out the Valor's Edge on one more game to see how it treats me, then may try out a Relic Blade build instead for gits & shiggles to compare the two.

Thanks for the input Crimson.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I think that if you want your Capt. in every melee then go for power fist+lightning claw, and choose the best weapons to use depending on what he is fighting with.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I think that if you want your Capt. in every melee then go for power fist+lightning claw, and choose the best weapons to use depending on what he is fighting with.

Why would you ever want to give something unwieldy to a character that has I:5 (or 6 with one BA specific warlord trait) base, with 3 base attacks, no access to any kind of eternal warrior, let alone has +1 initiative when charging? Vanilla marine Captain/Master or Analogue, where they only ever have I:5 I can justify having an Unwieldy weapon on them since they have access to the shield eternal, or Gorgon's Chain depending, but not on a character that can swing at one to potentially two initiative steps higher than most anything else he runs up on that's also an Independent Character.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather go with 2x Lightning Claws on a Blood Angels character if I'm going with a specialist weapon and even then, I'd go with a bolt pistol (or any other pistol you might like, plasma, grav, etc) and Valor's Edge with Digital Weapons for one re-roll, allows him to still get the same number of attacks, at initiative and at the same strength, but with AP:2, and only getting one re-roll on the failed to-wound versus all failed to-wound. It costs the same amount of points to do that (30 points) for Valor's Edge + Digital weapons as it does for 2x Lightning Claws and, in my opinion, is the better of the two builds.

Just explaining my rationale as it were. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

When you fight a 3+ armour the lightning claw is at I5 and doesn't loose tha attack for 2cc weapons (borh specialist).

Power fist is unwieldy but allows the Captain to engage high T units and 2+ save. Valor Edge is S4, a T5 or 6 is very difficult to wound even with digit weapons.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
I think that if you want your Capt. in every melee then go for power fist+lightning claw, and choose the best weapons to use depending on what he is fighting with.

Why would you ever want to give something unwieldy to a character that has I:5 (or 6 with one BA specific warlord trait) base, with 3 base attacks, no access to any kind of eternal warrior, let alone has +1 initiative when charging? Vanilla marine Captain/Master or Analogue, where they only ever have I:5 I can justify having an Unwieldy weapon on them since they have access to the shield eternal, or Gorgon's Chain depending, but not on a character that can swing at one to potentially two initiative steps higher than most anything else he runs up on that's also an Independent Character.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather go with 2x Lightning Claws on a Blood Angels character if I'm going with a specialist weapon and even then, I'd go with a bolt pistol (or any other pistol you might like, plasma, grav, etc) and Valor's Edge with Digital Weapons for one re-roll, allows him to still get the same number of attacks, at initiative and at the same strength, but with AP:2, and only getting one re-roll on the failed to-wound versus all failed to-wound. It costs the same amount of points to do that (30 points) for Valor's Edge + Digital weapons as it does for 2x Lightning Claws and, in my opinion, is the better of the two builds.

Just explaining my rationale as it were. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

1. ID anything below T5
2. Better time wounding in most cases, especially with Digital Weapons
3. Hit vehicles with a force outside a Melta Bomb
4. AP2

When you can tank weapons, the I5 isn't as great as you'd think. Just more reasons to take a character with EW like Dante.

The LOW excuse sucks on your end, for the record. It only acts like a third HQ slot like that.

I have played a BA fist/claw captain many games and i have to admit i don't really use the claw much. Initiative 5 is really overrated, but the extra attack is nice. If your building a budget captain i'd just go with the power axe. Str 6 on the charge means your wounding a lot on 2's for a small point investment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. ID anything below T5
2. Better time wounding in most cases, especially with Digital Weapons
3. Hit vehicles with a force outside a Melta Bomb
4. AP2

When you can tank weapons, the I5 isn't as great as you'd think. Just more reasons to take a character with EW like Dante.

The LOW excuse sucks on your end, for the record. It only acts like a third HQ slot like that.

It's not an excuse when it's a fact & common practice where I play. Edited by Manchu. Please keep in mind Rule Number One is Be Polite

Remtek wrote:I have played a BA fist/claw captain many games and i have to admit i don't really use the claw much. Initiative 5 is really overrated, but the extra attack is nice. If your building a budget captain i'd just go with the power axe. Str 6 on the charge means your wounding a lot on 2's for a small point investment.

I agree, the extra attack is very nice which is why, generally speaking, I don't prefer the Relic Blade option. I do want to give it a try however, and I'm not going for a budget captain also for clarity's sake. I like power Axes a lot, just hate putting them on a character that will get +1 initiative on the charge and already has I:5 base to start. Typically I put power axes on Death Company as a cheaper alternative to power fists (low point games, etc), since they're hidden in the squad. The power fist is preferred of course, but a power axe makes a nice alternative if you're trying to budget points for a 750 to 1000 point list.

Thanks for the input on that end also. I appreciate the feedback.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Hey Red, I'm personally a fan of giving my Captain a weapon that can ignore a 2+ armor save. With every most HQ's and their dogs having access to a 2+ having an AP2 weapon is crucial, and S5 is nothing to sneeze at with the Valor's Edge. My BA friend has had great success with that weapon in the past. If; however, you don't have a lot of 2+ saves in your meta, then the relic blade is decent.

Just my thoughts.

1st of all, you didn't mention in your original post that you don't have access to a LOW slot due to house rules, so someone suggesting Dante over a captain is a legitimate contribution and you getting all persnickety about it only reflects poorly on you.

2nd, depends on your meta, but given that you don't have access to eternal warrior, it will limit the things that you can realistically take on. Anything Str 8+ will have you sweating bullets as you've now got a 16% chance of going splat every time you roll a save, with that jumping to 50% if it's AP2 (which is pretty common). So you realistically can't fight other characters, unless it's a common theme in your meta to not take a powerfist or equivalent on characters, since even if you strike 1st, they'll likely have enough wounds and/or a sufficient invulnerable save to let them strike back. You can fight monsterous creatures who aren't dreadknights/hive tyrants/O'Vesa though, since they're not characters and you can hide in a squad.

This then leaves us with what you intend for his role to be. Will he be hunting "normal" chumps, in which case the AP2 will mean he can go and chase guys in 2+ armour or are you looking at taking on non character MC's and or a boatload of MEQ, in which case the relic blade is better. In this case, I'd vote for relic blade, but as mentioned, it's meta dependant.

Claw/Fist is the, well, not best, but covers the majority of both worlds, in that you're now I5 Str 5 shred against marines and Str 9 AP2 against non character MC's or tanks.

And then after all of that, I assume you can actually make build #1 since I don't have access to a BA codex, so can you actually take 2 relics? I know most other factions who aren't Tau can't.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. ID anything below T5
2. Better time wounding in most cases, especially with Digital Weapons
3. Hit vehicles with a force outside a Melta Bomb
4. AP2

When you can tank weapons, the I5 isn't as great as you'd think. Just more reasons to take a character with EW like Dante.

The LOW excuse sucks on your end, for the record. It only acts like a third HQ slot like that.

It's not an excuse when it's a fact & common practice where I play. Stop being an elitist douche.

It isn't being an elitist douche. It isn't my fault you choose not to use specific slots in your FOC. If anything, you're the elitist in that aspect.

The main reason a Blood Angels Captain is pure crap is because it doesn't do anything special compared to Captain-equivalents of other Marine codices:
1. The Vanilla codex can give them an extra wound, Orbital Bombardment as a Chapter Master, and/or EW (The Gorgon's Chain and The Shield Eternal)
2. The Dark Angels have a model with almost the same exact stats in the form of the Interrogator Chaplain. WS5 is perfectly fine when you're rerolling all your hits the first round of combat anyway.
3. Space Wolves can get bloody Thunderwolves for their Wolf Lords
4. Grey Knights get Mastery Levels and Force Weapons. You're able to get them three rolls on Sanctic with the Liber Daemonica, which means you can still get the powers you want more than likely.

Therefore, you take advantage of the other units in your HQ slot. Chaplains allow more hidden Power Fists to land in the first round of combat, Priests give FNP and WS5, and Librarians can either buff their squad or themselves (Quickening ain't bad when you got a Force Weapon to get off).

It's simply how the codex operates, given how it's written.

Drasius wrote:1st of all, you didn't mention in your original post that you don't have access to a LOW slot due to house rules, so someone suggesting Dante over a captain is a legitimate contribution and you getting all persnickety about it only reflects poorly on you.

Firstly, I appreciate your feedback, but allow me to clarify that Slayer Fan and I have had several discussions on this board in the past and was previously aware of the restrictions I and my gaming group place on Lords of War already. His insistence on recommending one (Dante, in this instance), already knowing this information, is why he received the response he did. Had anyone else made the suggestion without that predisposed knowledge, then the reply would have been less curt. Secondly, I asked specifically about two very specific build options for a Captain character. Not alternatives for that, but am seeking a discussion comparing those two exclusively. In summary, I'm not being persnickety, I'm trying to steer the discussion back to the original topic, which thanks to Slayer Fan, has been derailed rather nicely.

Drasius wrote:2nd, depends on your meta, but given that you don't have access to eternal warrior, it will limit the things that you can realistically take on. Anything Str 8+ will have you sweating bullets as you've now got a 16% chance of going splat every time you roll a save, with that jumping to 50% if it's AP2 (which is pretty common). So you realistically can't fight other characters, unless it's a common theme in your meta to not take a powerfist or equivalent on characters, since even if you strike 1st, they'll likely have enough wounds and/or a sufficient invulnerable save to let them strike back. You can fight monsterous creatures who aren't dreadknights/hive tyrants/O'Vesa though, since they're not characters and you can hide in a squad.

As I said earlier in the thread, this Captain is rolling with a Command Squad with 3x Storm Shields, so he has a few pretty stout (relatively speaking) ablative wounds with 3+/3++./5+++ if the Squad Sanguinary Novitiate is still alive. That helps mitigate the AP:2 somewhat. Powerfists and the like are moderately common, but I'm operating off weight of attacks achieved through multiple units charging the same unit at once (Idealy, a Death Company Squad, Captain & Command Squad, and a Tactical or Assault Squad as well, usually two of the three). That's why I Prefer to have a higher volume of attacks with moderate strength at AP:2 with high initiative to try and force saves and get wounds on target so that if they can swing back they're only getting a fraction of their swings compared to what they would have otherwise gotten.

Drasius wrote:This then leaves us with what you intend for his role to be. Will he be hunting "normal" chumps, in which case the AP2 will mean he can go and chase guys in 2+ armour or are you looking at taking on non character MC's and or a boatload of MEQ, in which case the relic blade is better. In this case, I'd vote for relic blade, but as mentioned, it's meta dependant.

Claw/Fist is the, well, not best, but covers the majority of both worlds, in that you're now I5 Str 5 shred against marines and Str 9 AP2 against non character MC's or tanks.

And then after all of that, I assume you can actually make build #1 since I don't have access to a BA codex, so can you actually take 2 relics? I know most other factions who aren't Tau can't.

I agree, Claw+Fist is a generallist build that works in a lot of situations. I'm a fan of it, but it does cost a lot to field and as I said I really don't like Unwieldy weapons on Independent Characters, particularly those with high initiative. And I face a fair amount of 2+ saves, but about equal number 3+ saves depending on my opponent. I prefer having the AP:2, but I'm not married to it of course (Hence the discussion). Lastly, yes the Crown Angelic + Valor's Edge works as there is a caveat/sub text for it, The Veritas Vitae relic (Bonus Strategic table Warlord Trait) and The Angel's Wing relic (Jump Pack) that state the Relic does not replace a weapon, and as such you can purchase them for a model and still purchase one weapon Relic as well. One little cool part of the BA codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It isn't being an elitist douche. It isn't my fault you choose not to use specific slots in your FOC. If anything, you're the elitist in that aspect.

The main reason a Blood Angels Captain is pure crap is because it doesn't do anything special compared to Captain-equivalents of other Marine codices:
1. The Vanilla codex can give them an extra wound, Orbital Bombardment as a Chapter Master, and/or EW (The Gorgon's Chain and The Shield Eternal)
2. The Dark Angels have a model with almost the same exact stats in the form of the Interrogator Chaplain. WS5 is perfectly fine when you're rerolling all your hits the first round of combat anyway.
3. Space Wolves can get bloody Thunderwolves for their Wolf Lords
4. Grey Knights get Mastery Levels and Force Weapons. You're able to get them three rolls on Sanctic with the Liber Daemonica, which means you can still get the powers you want more than likely.

Therefore, you take advantage of the other units in your HQ slot. Chaplains allow more hidden Power Fists to land in the first round of combat, Priests give FNP and WS5, and Librarians can either buff their squad or themselves (Quickening ain't bad when you got a Force Weapon to get off).

It's simply how the codex operates, given how it's written.

It is being a douche in general when you, who already know I and my gaming group put a reasonable restriction on Lords of War based purely on the fact that Lords of War vary so wildly in power level. In no way, shape, form or fashion is Dante, as bad news as he finally is, equivalent in any way to a Wraith Knight or God forbid something even bigger such as a Warhound for example. It's not being an elitist, it's being a conscientious adult who wants to have fun and not pull a TFG move and force someone to either decline playing, denying both people a game, or try to play an unwinnable game and go through the motions of a fore-gone conclusion. Nether scenario results in fun for one or both players, so why even go there??

Also, I never said there weren't other options in the Blood Angels codex in the HQ slot that were not both effective and have good rules to boot. I'm not discussing those here. I want to field a Captain in my Blood Angels army. I'm not playing a Grey Knight army, or a Vanilla marine army, or Dark Angels, or Space Wolves. I'm playing Blood Angels because I like them and want to play them. I don't give a flying F- what other marine armies do better with their Captain-esque analogues. I know their strengths and weaknesses all too well as I play against them (All 4 of them, in fact). Stop trying to steer the conversation away from the original topic.

It's that reason, if for no other, that you're a douche. Now kindly go find some other thread to troll in, because your antics are pretty stale at present and anyone following along knows what the score is at this point.

Run along now, before you make an even bigger jack-hole out of yourself.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Lot of poop going on in here.

Anyway, Red are you familiar with Karlean?
He's expensive with no loadout options but you do get plus 1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserves. Helpfull if you have a character with Angels Wing which is now similar to Dante's trait when paired up. Not the best but can help somebuilds.

As for the ap2 relic it keeps crossing my mind but i can't find anywhere to put it. Still there are a few units out there with T4 2+...
The quickening i think is kinda perfect here.

 eskimo wrote:
Lot of poop going on in here.

Sadly yes, there is. Hopefully that's behind us now.

 eskimo wrote:
Anyway, Red are you familiar with Karlean?
He's expensive with no loadout options but you do get plus 1 to seize the initiative and reroll reserves. Helpfull if you have a character with Angels Wing which is now similar to Dante's trait when paired up. Not the best but can help somebuilds.

As for the ap2 relic it keeps crossing my mind but i can't find anywhere to put it. Still there are a few units out there with T4 2+...
The quickening i think is kinda perfect here.

I actually have the Captain Karlean mini from the Deathstorm box (Split it up with a buddy of mine, he too the bug half obviously), and plan on painting him up for use later. I'm just not as much of a fan of using named characters versus using my own converted character minis generally speaking. The re-roll reserves thing is a big deal for sure though, and I'm not above plugging him into a list to try him out in the future once I make more headway on painting my angels and get him put together.

Honestly, the best two characters I can think of to put Valor's Edge onto are a Captain or a Sanguinary High Priest. I'll also wholeheartedly agree that Quickening + a Valor's Edge & pistol wielding Captain is a recipe for a whirling dervish of death vs. most anything you might run up against in a given game.

I appreciate the input also.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It isn't being an elitist douche. It isn't my fault you choose not to use specific slots in your FOC. If anything, you're the elitist in that aspect.

The main reason a Blood Angels Captain is pure crap is because it doesn't do anything special compared to Captain-equivalents of other Marine codices:
1. The Vanilla codex can give them an extra wound, Orbital Bombardment as a Chapter Master, and/or EW (The Gorgon's Chain and The Shield Eternal)
2. The Dark Angels have a model with almost the same exact stats in the form of the Interrogator Chaplain. WS5 is perfectly fine when you're rerolling all your hits the first round of combat anyway.
3. Space Wolves can get bloody Thunderwolves for their Wolf Lords
4. Grey Knights get Mastery Levels and Force Weapons. You're able to get them three rolls on Sanctic with the Liber Daemonica, which means you can still get the powers you want more than likely.

Therefore, you take advantage of the other units in your HQ slot. Chaplains allow more hidden Power Fists to land in the first round of combat, Priests give FNP and WS5, and Librarians can either buff their squad or themselves (Quickening ain't bad when you got a Force Weapon to get off).

It's simply how the codex operates, given how it's written.

It is being a douche in general when you, who already know I and my gaming group put a reasonable restriction on Lords of War based purely on the fact that Lords of War vary so wildly in power level. In no way, shape, form or fashion is Dante, as bad news as he finally is, equivalent in any way to a Wraith Knight or God forbid something even bigger such as a Warhound for example. It's not being an elitist, it's being a conscientious adult who wants to have fun and not pull a TFG move and force someone to either decline playing, denying both people a game, or try to play an unwinnable game and go through the motions of a fore-gone conclusion. Nether scenario results in fun for one or both players, so why even go there??

Also, I never said there weren't other options in the Blood Angels codex in the HQ slot that were not both effective and have good rules to boot. I'm not discussing those here. I want to field a Captain in my Blood Angels army. I'm not playing a Grey Knight army, or a Vanilla marine army, or Dark Angels, or Space Wolves. I'm playing Blood Angels because I like them and want to play them. I don't give a flying F- what other marine armies do better with their Captain-esque analogues. I know their strengths and weaknesses all too well as I play against them (All 4 of them, in fact). Stop trying to steer the conversation away from the original topic.

It's that reason, if for no other, that you're a douche. Now kindly go find some other thread to troll in, because your antics are pretty stale at present and anyone following along knows what the score is at this point.

Run along now, before you make an even bigger jack-hole out of yourself.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

There's wildly varying levels of power in ALL the slots for every army (Necrons and Eldar being the main exception where, for the most part, much of the stuff can be viable. Trazyn and Banshees be damned, of course); the LOW slot is no different in this regard. This is still a poor excuse on your end, and your group's, for not growing up and dealing with the game itself. You don't want to use all the tools in your codex? Not my problem in any way, shape, or form. I'm telling it like it simply is.

Therefore, with those power levels being so all over the place, the generic Captain of a Blood Angels codex has nothing special going for them. They aren't combat monsters and they don't support their retinue in a great fashion. SO, why bother?
You can always use the model as a Priest or Librarian. A Priest with the Edge, Jump Pack, Digital Weapons and Melta Bombs runs you little over 100 points and he doesn't pretend to be good at anything he isn't. Add in a special pistol as needed for the model you plan to use if WYSIWYG is super important, as otherwise the bog-standard Bolt Pistol will still give you the extra attack.

The same kind of advice would, and should, be given in similar threads where people ask how to outfit Rubric Marines or Tactical Terminators or Grey Knight Strike Squads: you don't.