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 GraywarTS wrote:
100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.

I have to say no to that purchase.

In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.

And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...

Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?

 judgedoug wrote:

 GraywarTS wrote:
100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.

I have to say no to that purchase.

In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.

And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...

Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?

I'd be more inclined to concentrate on the first part of his quote and realise that you could get 15 Knights for the equivalent of 3 of those guys and have a dollar to spare?!

For 100 dollars I think the Mighty Skullcrusher box is better value and a better comparison of like for like at that price range...get 6 Khorne knights on skullcrushers

 judgedoug wrote:

 GraywarTS wrote:
100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.

I have to say no to that purchase.

In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.

And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...

Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?

But the larger size of the Varanguard doesn't give them any in game advantage does it? Aside from personal aesthetic preferences, there's nothing that would make buying Chaos Knights and proxying them as Varanguard a disadvantage in playing because the Knights are smaller. The Varanguard definitely have better rules but their larger size, by itself, doesn't really matter.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 GraywarTS wrote:
100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.

I have to say no to that purchase.

In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.

And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...

Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?

But the larger size of the Varanguard doesn't give them any in game advantage does it? Aside from personal aesthetic preferences, there's nothing that would make buying Chaos Knights and proxying them as Varanguard a disadvantage in playing because the Knights are smaller. The Varanguard definitely have better rules but their larger size, by itself, doesn't really matter.

Actually, yeah. They would be at a disadvantage in a way.

You measure from the model itself rather than the base in Age of Sigmar. The larger size of the Varanguard is both a good and bad thing, as they can get attacks in on more things but can be hit back by more things as well.

They aren't much larger, though, according to the comparison pics.

Seems like a Bloodcrusher rearing up on it's hind legs is exactly the same size as a Varanguard.

By some people's size-related logic, it seems like a box of Bloodcrushers should somehow be much more than a 100 dollars, then? $150....$200? Obviously not.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Seems like a Bloodcrusher rearing up on it's hind legs is exactly the same size as a Varanguard.

By some people's size-related logic, it seems like a box of Bloodcrushers should somehow be much more than a 100 dollars, then? $150....$200? Obviously not.

That was the logic I raised in my post above but it's incorrect to say that the point being made was that the existing Bloodcrushers kit should be increased in price. As they are the same size, and being priced at the same amount, the newer Varanguard kit should either have more models in it or be at a cheaper price point.

That is not the secret of how to increase profits while sales are falling.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That is not the secret of how to increase profits while sales are falling.

I get you on trying to increase profits but surely they would increase the number of sales if people didn't think think they were too expensive and not value for money in comparison to other similar kits?!

The more I look at them the more certain aspects of them grow on me. I think the poses of the horses and design of the torsos are excellent but I'm not sold on the heads. Would prefer a more orthodox armoured horse's head instead but I suppose a bit of creative thinking could provide conversion alternatives.

GWs problem, if they have one, is turnover (sales) not profit.

Some of us choke at a three piece model kit costing more than complete army for some other games, but reading the positive comments by users about the style and rules of these Varanguard, clearly there are plenty of people who are not put off by the price.

So, it's not impossible for sales revenue to go up. GW just need enough super fans. But if not, a company can do well on less turnover and more profit, especially with most of the shares in the hands of management.

The crunch comes if the network effect goes into reverse, and people are put off buying because it becomes too hard to find people to play with.

However, if GW are selling to people whose main enjoyment is buying the models and playing an occasional casual game with a couple of friends, then this won't happen.

 Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Seems like a Bloodcrusher rearing up on it's hind legs is exactly the same size as a Varanguard.

By some people's size-related logic, it seems like a box of Bloodcrushers should somehow be much more than a 100 dollars, then? $150....$200? Obviously not.

That was the logic I raised in my post above but it's incorrect to say that the point being made was that the existing Bloodcrushers kit should be increased in price. As they are the same size, and being priced at the same amount, the newer Varanguard kit should either have more models in it or be at a cheaper price point.

I meant by my post that as wrong as my hypothetical Bloodcrusher situation would seem if it were true, the Varanguard situation too should obviously seem, as they are so closely comparable.

To be honest, AoS feels more "Age of Collector Miniatures at Premium Prices" for the new ones. I believe they understand their game is more fun at a Skirmish scale. Thus, the price is "less painfull" if you intend to take one box (or maybe two) and have fun with that for a long time.

But let's be honest, you don't make a true army out of those models. Since WFB is dead, not a big deal afterall.

Still, 100$ is high for three glorified chaos knight with essentially the mount being more chaotic. But then, after Archaon...yeah, it's quite a Premium army we have there. The Everchosen aren't for anyone, after all - only the True Fans (with enough money in their wallet) are allowed to play them.

Whatever, let everyone take their favorite miniatures at the price they're thinking they're worth. And if GW manage to survive like this, fine. If not, well, nevermind - it's not like we don't have any other choice, nowadays.

What is funny is that I still remember how some people weren't happy with the price asked for the Mounted Vampires unit when WFB was still around; about the price of Skullcrushers for 5 knights. It was very expensive at the time, and the result...well, they didn't sell that well. Many players just used another kit to make conversions. So, for those Chaos ones...yeah, I can see people using the less expensive knights with a few more mutations for the horses and then call it a Varanguard Knight. After all, the rules can be found elsewhere.

Let's take bets!

^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.

With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.

I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...

 Bottle wrote:
^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.

With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.

I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...

Well my wife has started a Wood Elf army and will be doing dark elfs next year, my bro in law is starting dwarfs and I will be starting an Orc force. However all these will be for 8th edition so will be buying just as much as we used to.

Sarouan wrote:Whatever, let everyone take their favorite miniatures at the price they're thinking they're worth. And if GW manage to survive like this, fine. If not, well, nevermind - it's not like we don't have any other choice, nowadays.

Well, for halfway quality 28mm fantasy minis intended (if not very well priced) for mass battles, not completely stuck in an early '90's or modern exxxtreme aesthetic, the pool might shrink a bit.

Bottle wrote:
With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes.

Yeah - compared to AoS. That said...

I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...

I've mentioned a few times, I'm doing this myself, but not for AoS. The price of WHFB minis is more bearable if you only need a half-dozen units of 6-12 each, for Lion/Dragon Rampant. And don't need special rules stacked hip-high. That doesn't mean discounters and ebay don't factor large in my purchases, though.

I can't even imagine buying these varanguard for any size force, even at a 25% discount. It's not a 'boohoohoo I want these so bad' thing, and I don't care how big they are, or if they're cheaper than a few thousand MtG boosters or a Ferrari. The price point just sends them straight into my 'non-purchase' pile, before I take a closer look at their appearance*, customisability, or role in AoS or any game.

Heck, I'm even considering buying a small handful of stormcast, but wouldn't touch a box of varanguard.

*Wonky poses - one looks like a lolloping labrador - not fully broken up and diguised by waaay too many fiddly bits and jags and spikes desperately trying to convince the viewer that they're big and hard, no really we are, our Mom said we were cool. Which keeps them firmly in the non-purchase pile.

 Bottle wrote:
^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.

With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.

I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...

What is skirmish level for you?
How many models? How many pts (e.g. wounds)?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.

With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.

I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...

What is skirmish level for you?
How many models? How many pts (e.g. wounds)?

I like playing with the School League Rules, which is 30 models. Usually around 50 wounds. That's a nice Skirmish level for AoS in my opinion.

 Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, AoS feels more "Age of Collector Miniatures at Premium Prices" for the new ones. I believe they understand their game is more fun at a Skirmish scale. Thus, the price is "less painfull" if you intend to take one box (or maybe two) and have fun with that for a long time.

This is pretty much the case for all GW miniatures, I think Not that Privateer and Wyrd are far behind. Incidentally, I think the price of the Summoner is not terrible, and it's a pretty cool model. I really like the Varaguard, too, after having seen the actual sprues. But I'm not a Chaos guy, so all these models are not coming home to my shelf.

By the way, I think it's also the Age of Steroids... bigger is better!

 Sarouan wrote:
But let's be honest, you don't make a true army out of those models. Since WFB is dead, not a big deal afterall.

You do see some people modelling "complete" armies, like a Stormcast.. uh... what is it called now, the thing that's like a chapter? I think they're relatively few though, compared to 40k. But let's be honest, people who are 40k completionists are also not doing so for gaming reasons, as there is very little gaming purpose for at least half the models. Not only are some of them terrible or serve almost no useful purpose (or impossible to transport), but there is no plausible way to play 15k-20k (or more...) points of models, or even half of them... or even a quarter....

If you look at the Army of the Month in Visions this month, for example, it is freaking huge, with a warlord titan, several of the big FW titans, many IK's, and then boatloads of everything else from plastic marines to FW tanks. 8 years to build, I think the fella said. Which actually seems pretty quick to me, looking at the massive size of the army.

I personally like the new archaon's chaos knight models. They have a ton of character, are very well sculpted, and look to be a blast to paint. I am also a fan of the new archaon model itself (although the old model is the best model GW has made for all it's ranges).

In reality the only thing I am not a fan of are the new mortal models for the khorne range.

My AOS armies are very small (40-60 wounds max, 1 monster max, 1-3 heros). With the demise of WHFB, gobs of troops and elite troops are cheap. This makes purchases like this set not as painful as I only plan to pick up one set ever.

And if you use ebay, you can find them for $80 or less

Pre-orders are up on the NZ site.
The hole in the middle of the disk is weird but I do like the rest of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Close ups of the sorcerer





Sprue pics

Its a cool model for sure, but is that really the best freehand they could throw out there for his tomb that he's reading?

 Iechine wrote:
Its a cool model for sure, but is that really the best freehand they could throw out there for his tomb that he's reading?

Probably not, but then if you put out an absolutely god-like Golden Daemon paint job, that can be a little daunting for folks and might put people off from buying it? Just my two pennorth

Just checked out the rules for the Gaunt Summoner on the NZ site. DEFINITELY found a use for my existing Sorcerer on Disc.

Love that summoner. If they want to keep releasing Tzeentch stuff like that I'll keep buying.

When I said that the new Tzeentch guy would be AUD$80 I was using hyperbole. I didn't think he'd actually cost that much.

He doesn't. He costs AUD$70.

I mean WTF???

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When I said that the new Tzeentch guy would be AUD$80 I was using hyperbole. I didn't think he'd actually cost that much.

He doesn't. He costs AUD$70.

I mean WTF???

He's 2 sprues in a clam pack, of course he is more expensive. Just like Skarr Bloodwrath, remember him, the first 2 sprue plastic character we saw which was the justification of him costing $50 when the other plastic character were in the twenties a year ago...

 jonolikespie wrote:
He's 2 sprues in a clam pack, of course he is more expensive. Just like Skarr Bloodwrath, remember him, the first 2 sprue plastic character we saw which was the justification of him costing $50 when the other plastic character were in the twenties a year ago...

Sorry, are you attempting to justify its $70 price cost by comparing it to something similar that costs twenty dollars less?