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I was wondering for the rule, lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?

What is the rule for other units in range? Is a unit that has no model capable of Shooting, really Shooting?

Charistoph wrote:
What is the rule for other units in range? Is a unit that has no model capable of Shooting, really Shooting?

There is nothing in the sequence of shooting that requires your target to be in range. Since all 3 units are now considered one unit for the purposes of shooting, it does not matter if some of the models are out of range. It would be the same as if I had a bolter in a squad that all have missile launchers. The unit can still fire at 30", just not that one model with a belter

The real issue is whether a unit that is out of range can consider itself to have any firepower to combine for the +1 BS, as the combination of firepower is what grants the BS increase.

If the unit and is out of range and cannot shoot, has it shot?

Part of the requirement to join Coordinated Firepower is to shoot.

Lets use this as an example, You combine A storm surge, pathfinders and fire warriors. There is 1 model in range for a pulse rifle shot however you fire the storm surge first to maximize blast effectiveness. Now the firewarriors are not longer in range. But everyone still benefits form the +1 BS. Since you declare this before firing any shots.

 Nilok wrote:
If the unit and is out of range and cannot shoot, has it shot?

Yes. Normally this can't happen because you can measure range at any time and you'd have to be pretty stupid to fail to check if you had a shot, but there's nothing stopping you from declaring a target that is too far away for any of your unit's weapons to fire. You'll just resolve no successful shots against it and move on to the next unit.

Of course you can target an out of range unit at a target of the shooting phase.

Seriously, find me a single line in the rules that restricts that. I will mail you a complete squad of marines if you can. No gak, you argue this properly and a box is in the mail for you.

I am so beyond reading people try to pick this rule apart with complete bull---- questions that only prove they don't properly re-read the core rules from one edition to the next. More than happy to throw some prize support on the line at this point.

Also, note that this is exactly how it worked before 6th edition made it legal to measure distances at any time. If you picked a target in 5th edition and discovered that all of your guns were out of range you lost the ability to shoot with that unit, you didn't get to pick another target instead. 6th and 7th never took away the ability to fail to be in range and waste a unit's shooting, they just added the ability to make sure that you never declare an out-of-range target unless you really want to.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
What is the rule for other units in range? Is a unit that has no model capable of Shooting, really Shooting?

There is nothing in the sequence of shooting that requires your target to be in range. Since all 3 units are now considered one unit for the purposes of shooting, it does not matter if some of the models are out of range. It would be the same as if I had a bolter in a squad that all have missile launchers. The unit can still fire at 30", just not that one model with a belter

What does the Coordinated Firepower state in regards to units joining in? That is what I meant, not necessarily the rulebook rules. I do not have the Detachment's rules to follow up with, and I am working on memory from leaked footage.

"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."

It's not about simply targeting the enemy unit - that is what the initial unit does and allows the player to trigger Coordinated Firepower - but rather at least two further units combining their firepower is the condition for gaining the increased Ballistic Skill.

So is a unit that is out of range considered as combining their firepower when they are unable to actually do anything beyond choosing a target, selecting a weapon and checking range to find they're not within?

Does a bolter restrict the range of a lascannon in a tactical squad?

And the shooting is all done at once: 'as one unit'.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
So is a unit that is out of range considered as combining their firepower when they are unable to actually do anything beyond choosing a target, selecting a weapon and checking range to find they're not within?

Yes. The only restriction is that they have to have the same target. Once they join the combined unit failing to be within range of any of their weapons is no different than any other case of some models in a unit being out of range.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes.

Do you have any evidence to support that view?

Once they join the combined unit failing to be within range of any of their weapons is no different than any other case of some models in a unit being out of range.

It seems to me we must still consider the separate units making up the Coordinated Firepower "unit" to determine whether we have at least three separate units combining their firepower. What's less clear I think is what "combining firepower" is or should be defined as. The fact they could be considered out of range models of the unit is irrelevant if we still don't know whether they can be considered as combining firepower.

Given they're not able to contribute any firepower if not in range, it seems they're unable to combine something that is non-existent.

Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Do you have any evidence to support that view?

Yes. It's called reading the rules. You are required to select the target to count for CF. You are not required to successfully roll dice against that target.

It seems to me we must still consider the separate units making up the Coordinated Firepower "unit" to determine whether we have at least three separate units combining their firepower.

Yes, and you do that. Three units must declare the same target. There is no requirement that any particular models within those units fire weapons at the declared target.

What's less clear I think is what "combining firepower" is or should be defined as.

It's defined perfectly clearly: the units (note: UNITS, not individual models within the unit) must shoot at the same target, and all participating units resolve their shots as a single unit. You're just trying to over-complicate this by looking for a restriction that isn't there.

No. One unit selecting a target is what allows you to enact Coordinated Firepower:

"Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack."

The requirement to actually gain the +1 Ballistic Skill is that three units combine their firepower:

"When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."

The restriction on shooting the same target has nothing to do with the +1 to Ballistic Skill.

You've still not shown proof that choosing a target, selecting a weapon, checking line of sight and being determined as out of range qualifies as actually contributing any firepower to combine.

EDIT:

From the Shooting phase section it's clear that models not in range cannot fire:

"Which Models Can Fire?

Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot."

If you're not firing, you're not providing any firepower to combine.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
You've still not shown proof that choosing a target, selecting a weapon, checking line of sight and being determined as out of range qualifies as actually contributing any firepower to combine.

Ok, let's be reasonable about this. Which is more likely:

"Combine their firepower" means "participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack", as described in the previous sentence.

or

"Combine their firepower" means some new concept of actually rolling dice, which is never stated (or even implied) and has no rule to reference.

I think the answer here is obvious.

From the Shooting phase section it's clear that models not in range cannot fire:

Please do not confuse MODELS and UNITS. UNITS can declare targets that no MODELS within the unit are able to fire at. Coordinated Firepower checks to see if UNITS are participating, it says nothing about what the MODELS within those UNITS are required to do.

So what?

All you need is LOS and the ability to shoot. this two things are required to declare a unit shooting at a target. Range is checked later in a ongoing shooting attack.

Does any model have to fire a single shot that the unit is counted as " has fired" during that turn?

no it doesn't. once you declared a target in line of sight to your unit that unit counts as " has shot" for that turn.

 Peregrine wrote:
Ok, let's be reasonable about this.

Reasonable? You really want to claim that a unit is able to contribute to a larger group's accuracy if it's completely out of range of the target?

"Combine their firepower" means "participate in the Coordinated Firepower attack", as described in the previous sentence.

or

"Combine their firepower" means some new concept of actually rolling dice, which is never stated (or even implied) and has no rule to reference.

I think the answer here is obvious.

Personally, I prefer in the absence of an explicit rules definition to go by common English definition.

According to dictionary.com, 'combine' means, "to bring into or join in a close union or whole; unite" while 'firepower' means, "the capability of a military force, unit, or weapons system as measured by the amount of gunfire, number of missiles, etc., deliverable to a target".

If you're not even shooting because you're out of range, you're simply not providing any firepower. How about we actually try to be reasonable with a little roleplay skit, eh?

"All units, target the walker! With our coordinated firepower there's a greater chance overall that we'll hit with something!"
"Um, I'm out of range. I don't think I can contribute to that. I'm definitely not adding to our overall ability to hit with something, because nothing of mine can possibly hit."
"Ah. Um, well, okay, all other units, then!"

Please do not confuse MODELS and UNITS. UNITS can declare targets that no MODELS within the unit are able to fire at. Coordinated Firepower checks to see if UNITS are participating, it says nothing about what the MODELS within those UNITS are required to do.

And what are units made up of? Oh, right. Yeah. Models. And you're still confusing the requirement to target the same unit with the condition for granting the Ballistic Skill bonus. They're separate things.

 _ghost_ wrote:
Does any model have to fire a single shot that the unit is counted as " has fired" during that turn?

no it doesn't. once you declared a target in line of sight to your unit that unit counts as " has shot" for that turn.

This is interesting, because if we're considering units in a Coordinated Firepower "unit" to be a bit like models in an ordinary firing unit that are out of range, well, in those circumstances the individual models do not count as having fired.

If we're thinking of out of range units as being like out of range models (which we know don't count as having fired) then we have the out of range units counting as not having fired - thus again not having any firepower to contribute to combine for Coordinated Firepower.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.

Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Reasonable? You really want to claim that a unit is able to contribute to a larger group's accuracy if it's completely out of range of the target?

Yes, because that's what the rules say. The most likely interpretation of what "combines their firepower" means is "participates in the CF attack" because the sentence immediately follows the one describing how units participate in CF. What it says is "here is how to do X, if 3+ units do it then also do Y". It's not my fault that GW allows units to choose a target for shooting even if none of their individual weapons are within range to fire.

Personally, I prefer in the absence of an explicit rules definition to go by common English definition.

According to dictionary.com, 'combine' means, "to bring into or join in a close union or whole; unite" while 'firepower' means, "the capability of a military force, unit, or weapons system as measured by the amount of gunfire, number of missiles, etc., deliverable to a target".

If you're not even shooting because you're out of range, you're simply not providing any firepower. How about we actually try to be reasonable with a little roleplay skit, eh?

Fluff =/= rules.

And what are units made up of? Oh, right. Yeah. Models.

What's your point? A unit is not merely the sum of its component models, it is its own distinct entity. The CF rules all refer to UNITS, not models. UNITS are counted to see who is participating, UNITS get the requirement to fire at the same target, etc. The fact that some or all models within a unit do not fire does not change the fact that the UNIT has shot at a given target.

And you're still confusing the requirement to target the same unit with the condition for granting the Ballistic Skill bonus. They're separate things.

I am doing no such thing. 3+ UNITS choose the same target, and all three get the BS bonus. Whether or not any MODELS within those units fire at the declared target (whether because of split fire, being out of range, or simply deciding not to shoot) is irrelevant because the UNIT has met the requirements.

This is interesting, because if we're considering units in a Coordinated Firepower "unit" to be a bit like models in an ordinary firing unit that are out of range, well, in those circumstances the individual models do not count as having fired.

If we're thinking of out of range units as being like out of range models (which we know don't count as having fired) then we have the out of range units counting as not having fired - thus again not having any firepower to contribute to combine for Coordinated Firepower.

How about instead of making analogies between units and models we just read what the printed rules say?

Look at the BRB rules for shooting. Range is not required to start a shooting attack.

ANd its still a shooting attack even if every single weapon is out of range. the unit still counts as " has shot at"

 FlingitNow wrote:
If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.

Because the UNIT is shooting at the target. UNITS can shoot at a target even if no MODELS within the unit shoot at it. For example, if you declare a unit as a target and find that all of your weapons are out of range you are considered to have shot that turn and can not decide to run or move flat out instead.

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.

Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.

SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.

You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, because that's what the rules say. The most likely interpretation of what "combines their firepower" means is "participates in the CF attack" because the sentence immediately follows the one describing how units participate in CF. What it says is "here is how to do X, if 3+ units do it then also do Y". It's not my fault that GW allows units to choose a target for shooting even if none of their individual weapons are within range to fire.

It's not what the rules say. The rules say "combine firepower" - they do not say "choose target, regardless of whether in range". Combining firepower is not defined as choosing a target. You're making an assumption based on your own desires rather than common sense - you cannot combine firepower that doesn't exist.

Fluff =/= rules.

You're the one who wanted to be reasonable rather than follow what the rules actually explicitly say.

I am doing no such thing. 3+ UNITS choose the same target, and all three get the BS bonus. Whether or not any MODELS within those units fire at the declared target (whether because of split fire, being out of range, or simply deciding not to shoot) is irrelevant because the UNIT has met the requirements.

You absolutely are. The rules tell us when a unit selects a target, other units that have yet to fire may combine their firepower. If you select two units to do this you gain no benefit but are still following the rules for Coordinated Firepower. The fact you can follow the Coordinated Firepower rules with two units or three plus units proves there is a distinction between simply selecting an enemy unit as target for those units and what actually qualifies the units for receiving the +1 Ballistic Skill.

How about instead of making analogies between units and models we just read what the printed rules say?

Okay. The rules say you must combine the firepower of three units to gain +1 Ballistic Skill. Oh, the models in that unit are out of range and so cannot fire. That means no firepower from that unit, so guess we'll need to find another unit who can actually contribute some firepower.

Mr. Shine at wich exact moment does a unit count as firing?

The moment it starts a shooting attack?
the monent models rresolve shoots?

Pls back up your answer with the BRB.

"All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."

Can a model in a Coordinated Firepower unit that is out of range fire at the same target as other models in the unit? No. Can it fire at all in that phase? No.

If all models in a unit cannot fire at all, that unit has no firepower to combine.

 _ghost_ wrote:
Mr. Shine at wich exact moment does a unit count as firing?

The moment it starts a shooting attack?
the monent models rresolve shoots?

Pls back up your answer with the BRB.

No, that's not how this works. You provide rules to support your argument first. You don't ask me to provide them for you.

My Dearest Mr Shine. this is how it works. You made your point

and now i want you to prove it. cause this is how it works.

CF tells us that the units has to shoot at the same target.

now you say if no model in a unit can shoot cuz of range the unit doesn't count as firing. that is YOUr point. so i want you to show us when a Unit counts as shooting.

The whole shootingphase is about units. only during the ongoing shooting attack it breaks down to single models in a unit. but. the shooting attack itself is on the unit level. In fact you are saying that a shootingattack is not a act of firing, rulewise.

So what is required to start a shooting attack?

the unit needs ranges weapons and a LOS.
Now what else do YOU need to begin a shooting attack?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.

Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.

SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.

You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does

Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.