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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 11:22:30
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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_ghost_ wrote:My Dearest Mr Shine. this is how it works. You made your point
and now i want you to prove it. cause this is how it works.
CF tells us that the units has to shoot at the same target.
now you say if no model in a unit can shoot cuz of range the unit doesn't count as firing. that is YOUr point. so i want you to show us when a Unit counts as shooting.
The whole shootingphase is about units. only during the ongoing shooting attack it breaks down to single models in a unit. but. the shooting attack itself is on the unit level. In fact you are saying that a shootingattack is not a act of firing, rulewise.
So what is required to start a shooting attack?
the unit needs ranges weapons and a LOS.
Now what else do YOU need to begin a shooting attack?
You're claiming i have to provide proof of when a unit counts as shooting, but Coordinated Firepower does not require the unit to count as shooting to grant +1 Ballistic Skill - they require three units to combine their firepower.
So the burden is on you to provide rules top support why your point is relevant. I'm not going to provide rules support for your as-yet irrelevant point. Sorry.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 11:23:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 11:23:01
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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_ghost_ wrote:My Dearest Mr Shine. this is how it works. You made your point
and now i want you to prove it. cause this is how it works.
CF tells us that the units has to shoot at the same target.
now you say if no model in a unit can shoot cuz of range the unit doesn't count as firing. that is YOUr point. so i want you to show us when a Unit counts as shooting.
The whole shootingphase is about units. only during the ongoing shooting attack it breaks down to single models in a unit. but. the shooting attack itself is on the unit level. In fact you are saying that a shootingattack is not a act of firing, rulewise.
So what is required to start a shooting attack?
the unit needs ranges weapons and a LOS.
Now what else do YOU need to begin a shooting attack?
Units only ever get to make 1 shooting attack, however that doesn't mean the unit shoots only once. If you're not going through any of the steps 3-6 how are you shooting?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 11:32:48
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Water-Caste Negotiator
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Mr. Shine wrote:
You're claiming i have to provide proof of when a unit counts as shooting, but Coordinated Firepower does not require the unit to count as shooting to grant +1 Ballistic Skill - they require three units to combine their firepower.
So the burden is on you to provide rules top support why your point is relevant. I'm not going to provide rules support for your as-yet irrelevant point. Sorry.
So how in game terms can units add firepower?
They have to make a shooting attack.
What is required for a unit to do that?
Ranged weapons, LOS, and the fact that unit han't already shot during that phase.
What you need for the BF+1 of CF?
3 or more units participating in that shooting attack
So what exactly does a unit out of range prevent from participating in CF? Its obvious that suhc a unit could start a shooting attack. right?
Regarding "combine Firepower" ... CF itself tells you how this is done. a unit out of range still fullfills everything you have to do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 11:35:44
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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So how in game terms can units add firepower?
They have to make a shooting attack.
The rules disagree. They say you have to make a shooting attack AND shooting at the target unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 11:40:24
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Water-Caste Negotiator
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Oh realy?
Thats the thing you make up.
"These units must
shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single
unit- this includes the use of marker light abilities. "
What does shot means in this context? Make a shooting attack.
there is not one single word that require every participating unit at least one single shot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 12:31:11
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Confessor Of Sins
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"They fire as one unit" seems pretty clear to me - - not everyone in a unit needs be able to fire.
Even if, say, a unit of Firewarriors is out of range for CF they participate by cheering, dancing or whatever Tau find inspiring. Or maybe they just add their sensor data to the pool available for those trying to get a firing solution?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 12:50:48
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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_ghost_ wrote:Oh realy?
Thats the thing you make up.
"These units must
shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single
unit- this includes the use of marker light abilities. "
What does shot means in this context? Make a shooting attack.
there is not one single word that require every participating unit at least one single shot.
Nope it doesn't say shooting attack, it says shoot, if you've firedno shots how can you claim you've shot?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 12:58:38
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Water-Caste Negotiator
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because ist absolutely irrelevant if a unit actualy made a shot or not.
Game mechanic wise that unit counts as " has shot"
So you are actualy claiming that CF requires you to be in range. were is this stated? show me that part.
A unit still shots at a target. even if there is no single shot. that how the game works.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 15:26:52
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Mr. Shine,
if you want to use your rule, that is fine. Just make sure that when you use your units the longest range of your guns is limited to the shortest range available to your unit, and any model without LoS to the target prevents the entire unit from shooting.
On pg.31 of the rulebook there is a picture of orks and marines during shooting. the top ork has no LoS to the unit and does not shoot, but it is still part of the unit. Now replace the individual models with units (like epic) and you have an idea of what is done with CFP. Units that have no range or LoS can still contribute to CFP, just like that ork behind the building.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 15:27:51
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 15:39:27
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 15:57:55
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Mr. Shine wrote:"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
Thank you for the quote, Mr. Shine.
FlingitNow wrote:Units only ever get to make 1 shooting attack, however that doesn't mean the unit shoots only once. If you're not going through any of the steps 3-6 how are you shooting?
This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
_ghost_ wrote:Oh realy?
Thats the thing you make up.
"These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit- this includes the use of marker light abilities. "
What does shot means in this context? Make a shooting attack.
there is not one single word that require every participating unit at least one single shot.
Actually it does. If targetting was the only requirement, then you would be correct. However, if no models in a unit shoots, the unit does not actually shoot as no Attack is generated. And you quoted the part where the units must shoot the target.
nosferatu1001 wrote:It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Targetting is done by the unit, models do the shooting on behalf of the unit. A model cannot shoot if it is out of range. If all models are out of range, no shots are fired. If no shots are fired, the unit is not actually shooting.
This makes for an interesting interaction with the Skyhammer Devastator Squad...
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 18:34:14
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Cool show a unit that hasn't shot has shot. Page and paragraph
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 18:44:53
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Cool show a unit that hasn't shot has shot. Page and paragraph
Shooting sequence:
Second step is declaring target.
Nowhere in declaring a target does it say you unit has to be in range; only has to be in LoS
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:12:24
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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notredameguy10 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: FlingitNow wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that actualy shooting any weaspos is not a prerequisite of the CF rule. It simply needs 3 units to be declared as shooting.
Coordinated Firepower disagrees with you. If no models in the unit are shooting at the target unit how are you fulfilling the requirement to shoot at the target unit? Everyone seems to be skipping that requirement.
SHooting is a unit level distinction, here.
You are talking about models, and not units. Talk about units, as the rule does
Cool so how many shots has the unit fired? I'm struggling to see how you can say a unit shot at another other if it fired 0 shots at them. The rule doesn't require merely targeting it requires you actually shoot at the target unit.
It requires the unit to have shot. the unit SHoots by declaring so and meeting the initial requirements. Models then make discrete shooting attacks, however whether they make 0, 1 or 1000, the unit HAS shot.
Try again. Show why the number of shots the unit has fired has tpo be a natural number. Page and graph.
Cool show a unit that hasn't shot has shot. Page and paragraph
Shooting sequence:
Second step is declaring target.
Nowhere in declaring a target does it say you unit has to be in range; only has to be in LoS
Yes I agree you have targeted the unit. Have you shot the unit?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:29:09
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I just want to point out that if the rules do indeed cause the 3 units to momentarily become a single unit, then there's no conflict here. This new single unit shoots at the target, and models in the unit not in range do not fire, but are still part of this unit, and so still add +1 to the BS.
Now, if you say that the units remain separate and distinct during Coordinated Fire (as I believe they do), then this issue does indeed need to be resolved. That said, the steps involved in the shooting phase doesn't actually require any weapons to be fired to fulfill every requirement of the shooting process. You select the unit to shoot with, select a target, choose a weapon to fire with, then start measuring for which models that have yet to shoot are within range. The game does not look ahead to see if a model is about to shoot. Once you're done selecting weapons and repeating the process, the unit can no longer be selected to shoot again (unless something special allows it) during the same phase. No where in that does the unit actually have to have successfully shot a single weapon.
In theory, I can select a unit of Marines within 15" of a target unit to shoot at that unit, then select to shoot a grenade, but find no models within range. I then do not select to shoot any other weapon. I am now unable to select this unit to shoot with again during this phase. This would be a ridiculous thing to do, but is totally allowable. If you say this is fine because it had a weapon that would be allowed to shoot, then I ask you where it says in the rules that at least one weapon in the unit may be able to reach the target in order to select that unit as its target. EDIT: Or find a rule that says you must shoot at least 1 weapon at the target unit.
Now, with all of that out of the way, let me clarify that I'm sure this is not the intention of the rules. It just makes intrinsic sense that the unit has to be able to shoot to "add their fire", and I would suggest to the OP not to try this against people in their area until a group consensus is achieved.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 20:30:10
Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:31:18
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
Nope a shooting attack is steps 1-7 see overwatch where the unit make 1 normal shooting attack, unless you're claiming in overwatch a unit only gets to shoot with 1 weapon total? Automatically Appended Next Post: In theory, I can select a unit of Marines within 15" of a target unit to shoot at that unit, then select to shoot a grenade, but find no models within range. I then do not select to shoot any other weapon. I am now unable to select this unit to shoot with again during this phase. This would be a ridiculous thing to do, but is totally allowable. If you say this is fine because it had a weapon that would be allowed to shoot, then I ask you where it says in the rules that at least one weapon in the unit may be able to reach the target in order to select that unit as its target. EDIT: Or find a rule that says you must shoot at least 1 weapon at the target unit.
Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 20:34:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:43:36
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:45:11
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yarium wrote:
Now, if you say that the units remain separate and distinct during Coordinated Fire (as I believe they do)
As that is supported by the rule that says the exact opposite, the rest of your message doesn't make sense. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yarium wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
And again no idea how you jumped to this conclusion. But consider this, three units from different directions shoot with similar weapons. Which models do you remove when they die?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 20:48:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:51:13
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Naw wrote:As that is supported by the rule that says the exact opposite, the rest of your message doesn't make sense.
Not to get off-topic, but if that is the case, and you fire with a Hammerhead at full Hull Points and two units of 1 Fire Warrior each, and you shoot at the Robot Maniple of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they pass some saves on 6's and so reflect the shot back at you, how do you know whether to resolve the shot against the Fire Warriors or the Hammerhead? It reflects back on the shooting unit, which in the "becomes 1 single unit" interpretation is a unit of 2 Fire Warriors and a Hammerhead with 3HP. The rules do not cover this situation and it would be impossible to resolve. If, however, each of the units remains separate and distinct while firing together, then there is no problem, as you know exactly which unit shot.
This is why I listed both scenarios; each scenario has issues, because it's a shoddily written rule.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:53:54
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Yarium wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
Why would it work that way? You can pre measure everything remember. Could you kill yourself out of range? Sure and at that point you've broken the rules so be careful on the order you choose to fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 20:58:01
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I know what you meant, as I wrote in my second message. The rules do not tell us, thus it is all HIWPI.
Doesn't mean that you are correct, it is just something that they overlooked, but hey, forge the narrative.
As for HIWPI, I'd look it from the perspective of the first unit initiating the CF rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 21:01:04
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote: Yarium wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
Why would it work that way? You can pre measure everything remember. Could you kill yourself out of range? Sure and at that point you've broken the rules so be careful on the order you choose to fire.
Because until then they haven't "shot" by what you just said. The game does not check the future. Considering this; 3 units of 1 model each are in range. They coordinate their shooting, but one model is throwing an offensive grenade as the first weapon being shot. Because of bad luck, the thrower gets it in such a way that it would kill one of the other models that have yet to shoot. Now there's only 1 model left to shoot. Either you have +1BS for the grenade being thrown because 3 units "could" shoot but haven't yet, or you don't get the +1BS for the grenade as 3 units have not yet shot. Either a unit is selected to shoot and select targets independently of whether or not any of those shots can reach or do anything, or you have to wait for shooting of 2 other units to be finished before the 3rd gets the bonus.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 21:03:59
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Eh? The requirement to trigger +1BS is that 3+ units participate. Did not understand your point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 21:04:58
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Yarium wrote: FlingitNow wrote: Yarium wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Cool the rule you are looking for is coordinated firepower. It requires you to shoot (not merely target) the designated unit.
Then it is impossible to gain +1BS for all shots. If you selected units that were in range, and each carried a different weapon, then only the last unit that shot would get the +1BS, since until then 3 units had not previously shot.
Why would it work that way? You can pre measure everything remember. Could you kill yourself out of range? Sure and at that point you've broken the rules so be careful on the order you choose to fire.
Because until then they haven't "shot" by what you just said. The game does not check the future. Considering this; 3 units of 1 model each are in range. They coordinate their shooting, but one model is throwing an offensive grenade as the first weapon being shot. Because of bad luck, the thrower gets it in such a way that it would kill one of the other models that have yet to shoot. Now there's only 1 model left to shoot. Either you have +1BS for the grenade being thrown because 3 units "could" shoot but haven't yet, or you don't get the +1BS for the grenade as 3 units have not yet shot. Either a unit is selected to shoot and select targets independently of whether or not any of those shots can reach or do anything, or you have to wait for shooting of 2 other units to be finished before the 3rd gets the bonus.
It doesn't require you to have shot only that you do shoot. If one of 3 units that started the CF can't shoot when you get to their weapon(s) then you have broken the rule. The rules do not cover what happens when you break them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 22:03:10
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Not as Good as a Minion
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FlingitNow wrote: This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate.
Nope a shooting attack is steps 1-7 see overwatch where the unit make 1 normal shooting attack, unless you're claiming in overwatch a unit only gets to shoot with 1 weapon total?
And then there's the Wound Pool:
The Wound Pool
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a Wound. Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule).
If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools. All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the Wounds are the same, as will most often be the case, there will only be one Wound pool.
Unless you're saying that Pulse Carbines have to delay their Wound Pool until Pulse Rifles fire...
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/04 22:06:15
Subject: Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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_ghost_ wrote:So how in game terms can units add firepower?
They have to make a shooting attack.
Yes, they have to have actually contributed some actual firepower, i.e. actually shot.
What is required for a unit to do that?
Ranged weapons, LOS, and the fact that unit han't already shot during that phase.
Do you have rules support for that? Those things are certainly required to select a target, check line of sight and range, but does that qualify as making a shooting attack? You have asked me to provide rules for when a unit counts as shooting, but you have not done that yourself. You've made that claim but have not provided rules support to show that counts as actually making the shooting attack.
So what exactly does a unit out of range prevent from participating in CF? Its obvious that suhc a unit could start a shooting attack. right?
When the rules get to the point where they say out of range models in a unit's shooting may not shoot in that phase, it's plain those units are not shooting. At all. They're not contributing any firepower.
Given that Coordinated Firepower requires us to check the number of units combining their firepower within the Coordinated Firepower super-unit, if an entire unit is out of range as models in that super-unit then the unit they make up is not combining their firepower.
_ghost_ wrote:because ist absolutely irrelevant if a unit actualy made a shot or not.
Game mechanic wise that unit counts as " has shot"
You haven't provided evidence of this. The unit has targeted, checked line of sight and range. The models in that unit are then told they are not allowed to shoot that phase, because they are out of range:
"Which Models Can Fire?
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."
Units A, B and C are targeting the same enemy unit using Coordinated Firepower, to become Coordinated Firepower Unit 1.
Units A and B are in range. Unit C is not in range. Coordinated Firepower Unit 1 has models A and B in range, but not model C. Model C cannot shoot at all this phase.
Do we get +1 BS? To get +1 BS at least three units must be combining their firepower. Unit C has no firepower to combine, because it is out of range.
A unit still shots at a target. even if there is no single shot. that how the game works.
You have not proven this yet. You've asked me to do it for you, and I have politely declined because it is your argument, not mine. Burden is on you to prove your argument.
carldooley wrote:Mr. Shine,
if you want to use your rule, that is fine. Just make sure that when you use your units the longest range of your guns is limited to the shortest range available to your unit, and any model without LoS to the target prevents the entire unit from shooting.
This is incorrect, because while they are considered one unit for the purpose of resolving their shooting attack, we must still consider whether as separate units they are combining firepower. If a unit within the Coordinated Firepower unit is not in range, it has no firepower to combine. Additionally I have never claimed the other units may not shoot. Please don't make a strawman of my argument by attacking something I have not said as if it were what I said.
Yarium wrote:I just want to point out that if the rules do indeed cause the 3 units to momentarily become a single unit, then there's no conflict here. This new single unit shoots at the target, and models in the unit not in range do not fire, but are still part of this unit, and so still add +1 to the BS.
If you ONLY consider them as one unit it becomes impossible to determine how many units are combining their firepower. Again, they may act as one unit to resolve their shooting, but for deciding whether they gain +1 BS we must still consider how many units within that Coordinated Firepower unit are combining their firepower. If a unit has no firepower then it has nothing to combine.
Now, if you say that the units remain separate and distinct during Coordinated Fire (as I believe they do), then this issue does indeed need to be resolved. That said, the steps involved in the shooting phase doesn't actually require any weapons to be fired to fulfill every requirement of the shooting process. You select the unit to shoot with, select a target, choose a weapon to fire with, then start measuring for which models that have yet to shoot are within range. The game does not look ahead to see if a model is about to shoot. Once you're done selecting weapons and repeating the process, the unit can no longer be selected to shoot again (unless something special allows it) during the same phase. No where in that does the unit actually have to have successfully shot a single weapon.
Yes, but if no models in that unit can shoot (because they are considered out of range models in the Coordinated Firepower unit, and thus disallowed from shooting at all in that phase) then that unit is not combining its firepower, ergo no +1 BS.
In theory, I can select a unit of Marines within 15" of a target unit to shoot at that unit, then select to shoot a grenade, but find no models within range. I then do not select to shoot any other weapon. I am now unable to select this unit to shoot with again during this phase. This would be a ridiculous thing to do, but is totally allowable. If you say this is fine because it had a weapon that would be allowed to shoot, then I ask you where it says in the rules that at least one weapon in the unit may be able to reach the target in order to select that unit as its target. EDIT: Or find a rule that says you must shoot at least 1 weapon at the target unit.
Selecting a target, checking line of sight, selecting a weapon and checking range are not the requirement, though. Combining firepower is.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 01:37:23
Subject: Re:Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Douglas Bader
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Selecting a target, checking line of sight, selecting a weapon and checking range are not the requirement, though. Combining firepower is.
And "combining firepower" is defined in the previous sentence: participating in the CF attack. Which you do by declaring the unit to be participating and committing to obey the restrictions of CF. Your fluff-based definition of "must fire a weapon at the target" is irrelevant and has no rules evidence to support it.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 03:30:43
Subject: Re:Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Peregrine wrote:And "combining firepower" is defined in the previous sentence: participating in the CF attack.
Um, no:
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack."
Combining firepower is defined as adding their firepower to the attack. That doesn't help us without a definition for firepower, though.
Which you do by declaring the unit to be participating and committing to obey the restrictions of CF. Your fluff-based definition of "must fire a weapon at the target" is irrelevant and has no rules evidence to support it.
You've yet to provide any rules support to show that declaring the same target, checking line of sight, selecting a weapon and checking range suffices as participating in the attack, let alone adding their firepower as the rules require.
Particularly not in the face of a quote I provided earlier, which I'll post again:
"Which Models Can Fire?
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."
If the models in Unit C are out of range they are specifically prohibited from shooting at all in that phase. How do you propose they add their firepower to the attack when they are explicitly stated as not allowed to shoot at all in that phase?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 03:54:58
Subject: Re:Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Douglas Bader
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Mr. Shine wrote:Um, no:
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack."
Combining firepower is defined as adding their firepower to the attack. That doesn't help us without a definition for firepower, though.
Sigh. How about quoting the entire rule?
"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
The third sentence tells you that if three units do what was just described you get another bonus.
The only ambiguity here is that you insist on taking sentences out of context and ignoring how they follow from previous sentences. When you consider the entire rule in its proper context the meaning of "combine their firepower" is obvious.
Particularly not in the face of a quote I provided earlier, which I'll post again:
Your quote is irrelevant because it describes MODELS firing, not UNITS firing. There is no similar requirement for UNITS to be within range of at least one weapon within the unit.
If the models in Unit C are out of range they are specifically prohibited from shooting at all in that phase. How do you propose they add their firepower to the attack when they are explicitly stated as not allowed to shoot at all in that phase?
You are correct, the models do not add their firepower, because models are not relevant. UNITS are relevant, and the UNIT shoots regardless of what weapons, if any, individual models within that unit fire.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 03:55:15
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 04:36:49
Subject: Re:Coordinated Firepower question - a different question than sharing buffs.
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Sigh. How about quoting the entire rule?
I believe I was the first to do so in this thread, already. I quoted the section relevant to what I believed you were referring to.
The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".
The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.
Wrong. The second sentence provides a restriction included in but not definitive of using Coordinated Firepower. Look at the following comparison:
"Any boys may play rugby with girls. Those boys must wear a girl's uniform."
Wearing a girl's rugby uniform does not define how to play rugby with girls.
Your quote is irrelevant because it describes MODELS firing, not UNITS firing. There is no similar requirement for UNITS to be within range of at least one weapon within the unit.
Ordinarily we wouldn't concern ourselves at the model level, sure, but Coordinated Firepower makes them one unit, made up of models from several sub-units. As a result you end up with an entire sub-unit of models who we are told are not allowed to fire at all this phase, but yet to gain +1 Ballistic Skill we must still refer to whether there are three units who are adding their firepower. So by attempting to include them in the Coordinated Firepower rule you have discounted them from being able to qualify as adding their firepower.
I've provided rules for this. You have provided a statement claiming it's irrelevant, but no actual rules quote.
You are correct, the models do not add their firepower, because models are not relevant. UNITS are relevant, and the UNIT shoots regardless of what weapons, if any, individual models within that unit fire.
How do you know if there are at least three units combining their firepower (one of which we know is not adding their firepower) if you're only considering them one unit as Coordinating Firepower says? You must simultaneously consider them one unit for resolving the attack whilst considering the number of individual units within the Coordinated Firepower unit that are adding their firepower.
On the one hand you're agreeing the models are not adding (or at least combining) their firepower, but claiming that somehow the unit is doing so. How do you propose the unit can be adding non-existent firepower because its models are unable to do so themselves? After all, units are made up of models:
"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right."
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 04:44:05
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