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 Peregrine wrote:
 Mr. Shine wrote:
Um, no:

"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack."

Combining firepower is defined as adding their firepower to the attack. That doesn't help us without a definition for firepower, though.


Sigh. How about quoting the entire rule?

"Coordinated Firepower: Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."

Sure.

 Peregrine wrote:
The first sentence says "any other units may add their firepower".

Let's see: "Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their fire power to the attack."

Okay, no argument there so far.

 Peregrine wrote:
The second sentence tells you what it means to add their firepower.

Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."

So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.

 Peregrine wrote:
The third sentence tells you that if three units do what was just described you get another bonus.

Let's see: "When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."

So, when they combine firepower, which is the units shooting the same target, they add 1 to their Ballistic Skill, so only units who are in range of this target can participate and so only the units are in range will gain the BS bonus.

 Peregrine wrote:
The only ambiguity here is that you insist on taking sentences out of context and ignoring how they follow from previous sentences. When you consider the entire rule in its proper context the meaning of "combine their firepower" is obvious.

Interesting that when you break it down as you suggest, it actually runs according to what Mr. Shine is suggesting and seems to counter your intention, if you are actually arguing against him.

 Peregrine wrote:
Particularly not in the face of a quote I provided earlier, which I'll post again:

Your quote is irrelevant because it describes MODELS firing, not UNITS firing. There is no similar requirement for UNITS to be within range of at least one weapon within the unit.

Units target, models shoot as part of the unit's Attack. But it still requires the "unit shooting" the target in order to benefit. Targetting is not mentioned. A unit can TARGET something out of range, but it cannot SHOOT something out of range. A notable difference that I pointed out earlier.

 Peregrine wrote:
If the models in Unit C are out of range they are specifically prohibited from shooting at all in that phase. How do you propose they add their firepower to the attack when they are explicitly stated as not allowed to shoot at all in that phase?

You are correct, the models do not add their firepower, because models are not relevant. UNITS are relevant, and the UNIT shoots regardless of what weapons, if any, individual models within that unit fire.

Incorrect. At least according to what has been presented so far. I have not seen any rule that states when a unit targets something, it is considered shooting it, yet.

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Cobleskill

Charistoph wrote:
Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."

So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.


This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 05:44:53


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 carldooley wrote:
This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.


Do you have a reference to support that last bit?

And something to prove that counting as having fired while yet being expressly forbidden from shooting at all that phase also counts as "adding their firepower"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 05:56:38


 
   
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 carldooley wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."

So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.

This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.

Ummm.... First off, what shots? That's the POINT!

Second of all, where does targeting count as firing?

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Charistoph wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
Now, let's see: "These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit - this includes the use of markerlight abilities."

So, it is defined as the units shooting the same target and resolving their shots... If you are out of range, the weapons are not shot. If the weapons are not shot, then the unit is not shooting.

This is a fallacy. the shots are resolved as coming from a single unit (the rest of sentence 2). Models in a unit that are out of range or out of Line of Sight still count as firing.

Ummm.... First off, what shots? That's the POINT!

Second of all, where does targeting count as firing?


If i have a unit with multiple different weapons, some out of range and some in range of an enemy unit, my unit is still firing even if individual models cannot.

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notredameguy10 wrote:
If i have a unit with multiple different weapons, some out of range and some in range of an enemy unit, my unit is still firing even if individual models cannot.


But if you need at least three members in the unit to add their firepower to the unit's shooting for the unit to gain +1 Ballistic Skill, do models that are out of range and therefore not allowed to shoot at all that phase count as adding their firepower to the attack?
   
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Charistoph wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
This is not true. It was true in 6th Edition, but the changes in 7th Edition allow a unit to make as many Shooting Attacks as they have Weapon Profiles in the unit. The Attacks from each Weapon Profile are not combined, and thus separate. 


Nope a shooting attack is steps 1-7 see overwatch where the unit make 1 normal shooting attack, unless you're claiming in overwatch a unit only gets to shoot with 1 weapon total?

And then there's the Wound Pool:
The Wound Pool
Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a ‘pool’, where each dice represents a Wound. Sometimes an attack will gain a bonus or special rule depending on the results rolled To Hit or To Wound (for example, due to the Rending special rule).

If you caused any such Wounds, split them into separate Wound pools. All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool. If all the Wounds are the same, as will most often be the case, there will only be one Wound pool.

Unless you're saying that Pulse Carbines have to delay their Wound Pool until Pulse Rifles fire...


I don't follow your logic. Why would Pulse Carbines and Rifles have to share a wound pool?

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twinner wrote:
I was wondering for the rule, lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?


Yes of course. As long as a model in a unit has LOS to at least one enemy model in the target unit, the unit can fire.
Thus at the minimum a unit needs LOS to count as a contributing unit in Coordinated Firepower.

If a model in a unit cannot fire for some reason (no LOS, out of range, choose not to fire, no weapon etc) the unit still counts as having being nominated for a shooting attack.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 10:15:10


 
   
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X078 wrote:
twinner wrote:
I was wondering for the rule, lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?


Yes of course. As long as a model in a unit has LOS to at least one enemy model in the target unit, the unit can fire.
Thus at the minimum a unit needs LOS to count as a contributing unit in Coordinated Firepower.

If a model in a unit cannot fire for some reason (no LOS, out of range, choose not to fire, no weapon etc) the unit still counts as having being nominated for a shooting attack.



Unfortunately being nominated for a shooting attack is not enough to join CF you must actually shoot at the target unit to qualify.
   
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Unfortunately being nominated for a shooting attack is not enough to join CF you must actually shoot at the target unit to qualify.


There is nothing in the CF rule that says that a shot has to be fired. However if you do fire you get +1BS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 10:42:29


 
   
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It says "must shoot" if you've fire no shots prove you have shot?

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a unit that shoots = unit making a shooting attack.
   
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And a unit that has no models in range has no models that can shoot. If a unit has no models that can shoot that unit cannot shoot.
   
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 FlingitNow wrote:
It says "must shoot" if you've fire no shots prove you have shot?


It says, the unit must shoot the same target. That rule is a restriction so that one cannot claim use of the unit for e.g. another CF right after. If you participate with a unit but do not fire you cannot fire anymore for that phase.

The same rules exists in the BRB but in a much stronger version clearly stating models. The CF rule is actually a bit more lenient with just stating units.

Which models can fire?
"All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Shine wrote:
And a unit that has no models in range has no models that can shoot. If a unit has no models that can shoot that unit cannot shoot.


You can still declare to make a shooting attack, you just can't fire. This is the same concept as in older rules where you could not pre-measure, so you would declare "My unit of x fires at your unit y", then you measured the range and sometimes you where out of range and could not fire. The unit still counted as having shot though. Works the same now but with the added benefit of pre-measuring so normally you would not make a shooting attack without also firing, but it happens.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 11:15:37


 
   
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Okay, now we agree the unit cannot shoot if all models in the unit cannot shoot... what do the rules say about nominating a unit to shoot? Let's look at the shooting sequence...

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

If we know the unit is not able to shoot by virtue of being out of range, you're unable to nominate that unit to shoot at all.

If you cannot nominate that unit to shoot, that unit is unable to select a target, or select a weapon. Done. Failed at the first step of the shooting sequence.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 11:18:08


 
   
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 _ghost_ wrote:
a unit that shoots = unit making a shooting attack.


Got a quote for that? Also see Mr Shines response a unit with no models that can shoot can not shoot...

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 Mr. Shine wrote:
Okay, now we agree the unit cannot shoot if all models in the unit cannot shoot... what do the rules say about nominating a unit to shoot? Let's look at the shooting sequence...

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

If we know the unit is not able to shoot by virtue of being out of range, you're unable to nominate that unit to shoot at all.

If you cannot nominate that unit to shoot, that unit is unable to select a target, or select a weapon. Done. Failed at the first step of the shooting sequence.


Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.
   
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X078 wrote:
Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.


No. It says "is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn". That means "able to shoot" and "yet to fire" are separate requirements.

If I said to you, "Choose a friend to take you home who is able to drive but has not had too much to drink tonight," it is clear that they must be able to drive in all respects AS WELL AS not being too drunk.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 11:33:47


 
   
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 _ghost_ wrote:
a unit that shoots = unit making a shooting attack.


Got a quote for that? Also see Mr Shines response a unit with no models that can shoot can not shoot...

So you have 2 things to prove. First that making a shooting attack is the same as a unit shooting. Second that a unit that has no models able to fire can make a shooting attack.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

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 Mr. Shine wrote:
X078 wrote:
Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.


No. It says "is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn". That means "able to shoot" and "yet to fire" are separate requirements.


Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.
   
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 Mr. Shine wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
If i have a unit with multiple different weapons, some out of range and some in range of an enemy unit, my unit is still firing even if individual models cannot.


But if you need at least three members in the unit to add their firepower to the unit's shooting for the unit to gain +1 Ballistic Skill, do models that are out of range and therefore not allowed to shoot at all that phase count as adding their firepower to the attack?


The requirement was that 3 units are involved. As has been said, they become one large unit and some of the weapons can be out of range. This doesn't mean that they didn't add to the firepower. Think of this as a single unit of 9 crisis suits, with 3 missile pods, 3 plasmas and 3 flamers. They unit counts as having shot even if all models could not fire.
   
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X078 wrote:
Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.


Once again you have not supported any of this with rules references. I'll do the hard work for you... and remember you agreed earlier that a unit with no models that can shoot cannot as a unit shoot either.

"3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot."

So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.

So again, if the unit is not in range and therefore unable to shoot, how can you nominate that unit to shoot if one of the requirements is that the unit is able to shoot?

If you disagree, PLEASE support your argument with rules, not just your opinion.
   
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 Mr. Shine wrote:

If I said to you, "Choose a friend to take you home who is able to drive but has not had too much to drink tonight," it is clear that they must be able to drive in all respects AS WELL AS not being too drunk.


I would say that the friend is able to drive although he may be drunk.

Another situation to ponder:
"lets say we have a Pathfinder squad out of range, and 2 broadside squads in range. Can I declare all three to shoot at the same enemy to get the +1 BS, even though my pathfinders are out of range?"

Well wouldn't the Pathfinders try to contribute by coordinating their optical telemetry, bearings, visual information etc or something like that when they know their weapons are out of range.


   
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Naw wrote:
The requirement was that 3 units are involved.


Wrong. The requirement is that three units combine their firepower.

As has been said, they become one large unit and some of the weapons can be out of range. This doesn't mean that they didn't add to the firepower. Think of this as a single unit of 9 crisis suits, with 3 missile pods, 3 plasmas and 3 flamers. They unit counts as having shot even if all models could not fire.


But if it's one large unit how do you know if at least three units have combined or added their firepower to the attack? You can't say it's one large unit so the smaller unit doesn't need to be able to shoot, but claim you still have at least three small units.

And once again, a unit cannot be chosen to shoot if it is not able to shoot, for example if it is out of line of sight and/or range.
   
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 Mr. Shine wrote:
X078 wrote:
Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.


Once again you have not supported any of this with rules references. I'll do the hard work for you... and remember you agreed earlier that a unit with no models that can shoot cannot as a unit shoot either.

"3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot."

So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.

So again, if the unit is not in range and therefore unable to shoot, how can you nominate that unit to shoot if one of the requirements is that the unit is able to shoot?

If you disagree, PLEASE support your argument with rules, not just your opinion.



So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.

By RAW only the model by weapon range is affected by this, common sense is all assumption.

And sure, support from the BRB:
"NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 12:00:59


 
   
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X078 wrote:
I would say that the friend is able to drive although he may be drunk.


Not if your friend is too drunk to stand up and is on the opposite side of the house from the car.

Well wouldn't the Pathfinders try to contribute by coordinating their optical telemetry, bearings, visual information etc or something like that when they know their weapons are out of range.


Where are those rules?

This is a rules, not fluff, discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
X078 wrote:
By RAW only weapons on the model is affected by this, common sense is all assumption.

And sure, support from the BRB:
"NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."



Go back a page or two and read the shooting sequence quote I provided earlier, which requires you select a unit that is able to shoot:

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 12:00:43


 
   
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Where are those rules?

This is a rules, not fluff, discussion.


Your example of a drunk friend is not exactly rules now is it? Mine has at least some relevance to the discussion.


Go back a page or two and read the shooting sequence quote I provided earlier, which requires you select a unit that is able to shoot:

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."


And yet a unit being able to shoot or declaring/nominating to shoot is not the same as the models firing. You can also check this in the rulebook.
   
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 Mr. Shine wrote:
X078 wrote:
Being out of LOS is one thing that would stop the unit from being able to shoot, having shot before another. Having LOS you can still declare that your unit is making a shooting attack. being out range does not hinder that in any way, it does however hinder a model from firing a weapon. Making a shooting attack with a unit is enough to fulfill the CF requirement, individual models not being able to actually fire is not part of that.


Once again you have not supported any of this with rules references. I'll do the hard work for you... and remember you agreed earlier that a unit with no models that can shoot cannot as a unit shoot either.

"3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot."


That doesn't matter because unit A targets enemy unit, at this moment unit B and unit C join in for CF attack. They become a single unit with members from units A, B and C. Only then we choose weapons AND range, as you point out. Why, as you quote the rules, do you fail to follow them?

So obviously not being on range DOES make a model (and by common sense and your agreement, potentially a unit) unable to shoot.


But obviously the one unit above is shooting, as long as even one of the weapons is in range. Do you agree?

So again, if the unit is not in range and therefore unable to shoot, how can you nominate that unit to shoot if one of the requirements is that the unit is able to shoot?


Because CF triggers after shooting step 2 and when other units join, they are no longer individual units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look, Mr. Shine, I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not supported by the rules.

For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.

As you can see from above, we have satisfied the rules for Coordinated Firepower, we also trigger the rule to add +1BS. It affects everyone who is able to shoot.

Think of this as having a single unit of 9 crisis suits, 3 with pods, 3 with plasma and 3 with flamer. Are you now trying to say that I'm not allowed to shoot because not everyone may have the range or that the unit doesn't count as having shot? That doesn't make sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 12:21:18


 
   
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Cobleskill

Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)

Do you have anyone you play that uses IG? do they use Infantry Platoons? you know how the Infantry Squads in the lists can combine to make a larger squad? that is what combined fire does, but only for the shooting phase (and they go back to discrete units after they fire). Coherency doesn't matter, because it isn't checked in the shooting phase, but as long as 3 or more squads join, they get +1 BS. Are you going to tell the IG player that 2\3rds of their 3 combined infantry squads are unable to fire, or that the lascannons\missile launchers\autocannons\mortars\heavy bolters\ et al cannot fire at a target because they are out of range of the laspistol held by the sergeants? that is what you are saying.

Frankly, I could see infantry squads getting this in the next AM codex, as it works for enfilading shooting of their many squads. If that does happen, will the IoM players say that it wouldn't work for Tau but it works for them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 14:09:07


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Gathering the Informations.

 carldooley wrote:
Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)

He's saying that you don't get the benefits of having three units participating if the models composing one of the units you've chosen cannot actually add to the Coordinated Firepower attack.

Considering the range on basically everything in the Tau Codex? It's going to take a lot for you to actively TRY to not utilize a unit that has range, and it is exceedingly cheeky to pretend that this is going to be a common situation as it is as well to pretend that you should be making CFP attacks using "cheerleader" squads.
This isn't Infinity where you have an Order Pool and models add to it, regardless of where they are on the board.

Additionally? Implying that someone is "trolling" because they disagree with you is a bit asinine.

Do you have anyone you play that uses IG? do they use Infantry Platoons? you know how the Infantry Squads in the lists can combine to make a larger squad? that is what combined fire does, but only for the shooting phase (and they go back to discrete units after they fire). Coherency doesn't matter, because it isn't checked in the shooting phase, but as long as 3 or more squads join, they get +1 BS. Are you going to tell the IG player that 2\3rds of their 3 combined infantry squads are unable to fire, or that the lascannons\missile launchers\autocannons\mortars\heavy bolters\ et al cannot fire at a target because they are out of range of the laspistol held by the sergeants? that is what you are saying.

That's a bad comparison, because Combined Squads have to maintain coherency and are declared before Warlord Traits. Once you make a Blob Squad, you cannot unmake it. That's it for the entirety of the game.


Frankly, I could see infantry squads getting this in the next AM codex, as it works for enfilading shooting of their many squads. If that does happen, will the IoM players say that it wouldn't work for Tau but it works for them?

Cadians got this in their Emperor's Shield Company formation. They can issue "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" to as many of the 15 mandatory Infantry Squads as they choose to within that Company...

Provided the Company Command Squad is in range, because the special rule does not override the range of Orders.
   
 
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