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So if we look at the shooting phase.

1. choose a unit with at least one model with a ranged weapon that has not already shot in that turn
2 select a Target. the only requirement here is that it is in LOS of your unit.
3. select weapon. If model is not in range said weapon cant shoot
4. resolve shots of said weapon/s
select another weapon.

So if we have a unit with no weapon in range we still do everything of a shooting attack. ( keep in mind we also could to decide that any model or all of the unit dont shoot at all) The UNIT is still resolving a shooting attack.

CF does stat that we hav the aditional units to shoot at the same target. there is never mentioned that any model of said Unit makes one shoot. the UNIT is still shooting. ( in BRB terms this means it resolving a shooting attack.)

Mr. Shine is still using the wrong part of the rules. he always reffers to single models of a unit. but still. If a unit fires then this is always a shooting attack. At the begining of the page for the shootingphase this is statet.

If you have a unit with no weapon in range, you don't perform a shooting attack.

Read page 30.

CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat (pg 47).

Common sense dictates that this is part of Step 2, seeing as how the title of step 2 is "Choose a Target".

Kanluwen - re-read what you just typed. You check the range and line of sight, but of those two only line of sight is a requirement, and is noted as such in the very next paragraph on that same page:

"To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen."

Notice how there's no similar heading for range. Range is only checked much later for which models can fire, not whether the unit can fire.

Because common sense dictates that they should not have to say anything to the effect of "You cannot choose to target a unit that is out of range of all weapons inside of a unit" when they state that you can measure range and LOS to multiple targets before declaring the target you're choosing to fire.

This REALLY should not be something that gets argued about, because it does not take a genius to figure out that if you're out of range of all weapons?
You're not performing a shooting attack and thus cannot participate in a Coordinated Firepower attack.

Additionally? Reread page 30.

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting.

Saying that you "must check the range and line of sight" is pretty blatant that yes, you DO check the range when choosing a target.

so were is it stated that out of Range means "choose another target?" show me that part

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because common sense dictates that they should not have to say anything to the effect of "You cannot choose to target a unit that is out of range of all weapons inside of a unit" when they state that you can measure range and LOS to multiple targets before declaring the target you're choosing to fire.

This REALLY should not be something that gets argued about, because it does not take a genius to figure out that if you're out of range of all weapons?
You're not performing a shooting attack and thus cannot participate in a Coordinated Firepower attack.

I know, and I get it. I would suggest to the OP that they do not attempt this, but it does seem fully supported by the rules. You're totally right that our gut instinct is that you actually have to be able to shoot at the target, and that means some bang bangs. I firmly believe that the INTENT of the rules is exactly that too. But that's a discussion about etiquette in games, and doesn't belong in a RAW discussion.

 _ghost_ wrote:
so were is it stated that out of Range means "choose another target?" show me that part

You have to check range and line of sight.

Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?

I asked for your support to claim that Range itself is a matter of picking a target. The rules say that you have to check it. thats all. so where is your quote?

 _ghost_ wrote:
I asked for your support to claim that Range itself is a matter of picking a target. The rules say that you have to check it. thats all. so where is your quote?

And I asked you:
When would you choose to target a unit that is out of range, when you are forced to check range and line of sight before declaring a unit to be your target?

Seriously. Read page bloody thirty. Under "Choosing a Target", it states that you MUST check not just line of sight but range.
The only caveat is that at least one model have LOS to be able to target the unit.

Alright. so there is no rule that stated choosing a target out of range is eighter forbidden or would breack the rules in any other way.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?

There is a prime example where this will often be the case. A solo Buffmander model unit, he will often have no weapons and foregoes shooting so that his CF unit can benefit, so yes he will often be in the back field, in cover, if solo.

Another case could be that as mentioned before you might be out of range with some models but can still contribute and aid others by joining in and giving them +1BS.

X078 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?

There is a prime example where this will often be the case. A solo Buffmander model unit, he will often have no weapons and foregoes shooting so that his CF unit can benefit, so yes he will often be in the back field, in cover, if solo.

Another case could be that as mentioned before you might be out of range with some models but can still contribute and aid others by joining in and giving them +1BS.

Buffmander has to make a shooting attack to join it, so unless he is actually part of a Crisis unit that is part of the CF?
He can't provide his buffs.

Additionally, there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between "You might be out of range with some models but can still contribute" and what some of the people in this thread are arguing, which is units entirely out of range that contribute nothing but harsh language grant the +1 BS.

Realy?`As far a i know a model if a unit can decide to no shoot.

 _ghost_ wrote:
Alright. so there is no rule that stated choosing a target out of range is eighter forbidden or would breack the rules in any other way.

You must check range and line of sight before declaring a target seems pretty bloody obvious that "No, you cannot choose a target that is out of range".

Again, this is something that shouldn't even be an issue. The fact that people like yourself are making it an issue is downright ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 _ghost_ wrote:
Realy?`As far a i know a model if a unit can decide to no shoot.

"A model in a unit" != "An independent character by themselves".
A Buffmander joining the shooting attack is a unit by itself, not a model in a unit.

Different story if he has drones with him or in a Crisis team as then it becomes part of a unit.

A Single buffmander is still a model of his unit. Regarding CF he can still refuse to shoot at all.

Nope!
In order for him to participate in the Coordinated Firepower, he needs to perform a shooting attack if he's by himself.

He cannot participate otherwise. You cannot choose to join in a thing which states that you must shoot, and then declare "Nope! Just kidding".

For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range. 

CF disagrees. It also requires each unit fires some shots (aka shoots) at the targeted unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)

He's saying that you don't get the benefits of having three units participating if the models composing one of the units you've chosen cannot actually add to the Coordinated Firepower attack.

Considering the range on basically everything in the Tau Codex? It's going to take a lot for you to actively TRY to not utilize a unit that has range, and it is exceedingly cheeky to pretend that this is going to be a common situation as it is as well to pretend that you should be making CFP attacks using "cheerleader" squads.

Do you actually understand that if Tau combines 3 units but only 1 of them actually shoots, he has wasted those two units to get +1BS, which he could easily get from marker lights? He can do it, but does it make sense??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
so were is it stated that out of Range means "choose another target?" show me that part

You have to check range and line of sight.

Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?

So you admit that we are allowed to choose a target that is out of range for all of the weapons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range. 

CF disagrees. It also requires each unit fires some shots (aka shoots) at the targeted unit.

I'll give up. That's not what the rules demand and I'm going to play it according to the rules. You can houserule it your way.

Naw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)

He's saying that you don't get the benefits of having three units participating if the models composing one of the units you've chosen cannot actually add to the Coordinated Firepower attack.

Considering the range on basically everything in the Tau Codex? It's going to take a lot for you to actively TRY to not utilize a unit that has range, and it is exceedingly cheeky to pretend that this is going to be a common situation as it is as well to pretend that you should be making CFP attacks using "cheerleader" squads.

Do you actually understand that if Tau combines 3 units but only 1 of them actually shoots, he has wasted those two units to get +1BS, which he could easily get from marker lights? He can do it, but does it make sense??

That is a Tactics consideration, not a rules one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
so were is it stated that out of Range means "choose another target?" show me that part

You have to check range and line of sight.

Are you REALLY going to pick a target that is out of range for all of the weapons in your unit?

So you admit that we are allowed to choose a target that is out of range for all of the weapons?

Yes, a unit may attempt to generate a Shooting Attack at a target out of range and LOS.

However, yet to be proven is Targetting and attempting to generate a Shooting Attack is all that is needed for a unit to count as Shooting. If a unit carries Rapid Fire Weapons and Assault Weapons with them, but cannot Fire the RF Weapons due to Range or LOS, and none of them are Relentless or Slow and Purposeful, would they still be able to Charge?

In your consideration, the answer would be "no" since the unit "shot" Rapid Fire Weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range. 

CF disagrees. It also requires each unit fires some shots (aka shoots) at the targeted unit.

I'll give up. That's not what the rules demand and I'm going to play it according to the rules. You can houserule it your way.

Not according to the second sentence. The rule in the second sentence states the unit must shoot the target, not just target it, not just make or attemt a Shooting Attack, actually shoot. And nothing shoots iff it can't "see" it or reach it. Obviously, there are ways around LOS with SMS, Barrage, and Seeker Strike, but that's specific to those cases and not the general consideration.

And I could not not comment...

Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.

Naw wrote:
And I could not not comment...

Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.

Because in order for them to qualify as part of the super unit, they must shoot the same target. This is not the same as a 9 model unit that was together in coherency when the Movement Phase ended. They are not merged at just the player's say so. They contribute firepower, which going by the second sentence means Shooting at the target.

No Shooting, no contributing firepower. No contributing firepower, not considered part of the temporary super unit.

Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
And I could not not comment...

Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.

Because in order for them to qualify as part of the super unit, they must shoot the same target. This is not the same as a 9 model unit that was together in coherency when the Movement Phase ended. They are not merged at just the player's say so. They contribute firepower, which going by the second sentence means Shooting at the target.

No Shooting, no contributing firepower. No contributing firepower, not considered part of the temporary super unit.

So basically its the "chicken or the egg" dilemma.

Do you become a "super unit" and then shoot with those who are able to
Do you have to be able to shoot in order to become a "super unit" (but is it actually "shooting" or just the shooting sequence)

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
And I could not not comment...

Would you disallow my unit of 9 crisis suits from shooting if all of them didn't have range? Why do you insist that my new "super unit" cannot do the same? From a rules perspective, what do you really have? Read CF, shooting steps 2 and 3 and admit you have no case.

Because in order for them to qualify as part of the super unit, they must shoot the same target. This is not the same as a 9 model unit that was together in coherency when the Movement Phase ended. They are not merged at just the player's say so. They contribute firepower, which going by the second sentence means Shooting at the target.

No Shooting, no contributing firepower. No contributing firepower, not considered part of the temporary super unit.

So basically its the "chicken or the egg" dilemma.

Do you become a "super unit" and then shoot with those who are able to
Do you have to be able to shoot in order to become a "super unit" (but is it actually "shooting" or just the shooting sequence)

You mus actually shoot each unit at the target or you have broken the CF rule.

So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.

I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.

Naw wrote:
So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.

I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.

It's not really that hard to understand.

In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:
So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.

I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.

It's not really that hard to understand.

In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.

That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.

That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.

Exactly, and i urge anyone that disagrees to review the Firebase Support Cadre rule, Coordinated Firestorm. While very similar to the Coordinated Firepower rule, the big difference is that it specifically mentions models whilst CF specifically mentions units. This unit / model difference is intentional and important to understand.

col_impact wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:
So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.

I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.

It's not really that hard to understand.

In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.

That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:
So if I have in one unit a flamer and a pod, the unit is not contributing because both models are not able to? Help me understand.

I fear that we do not have common ground here and never come to an agreement.

It's not really that hard to understand.

In order to participate in a Coordinated Firepower, the unit has to have at LEAST one model that can fire. You have to be able to make a shooting attack to participate.

That's not really what the rules say. You can choose a unit that has not already shot. The unit needs only to have line of sight from one its models to one of the models in an enemy target unit. It can entirely be the case that zero models of your unit are in range and so zero models shoot (perhaps in CF a weapon from a different contributing unit has wiped out everything in range or perhaps you have simply chosen a unit that has no weapon in range - the rules don't care). After zero models have shot, the unit will have completed its shooting and you will not be able to choose to run with that unit.

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"

Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"

Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them

I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.