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Charistoph wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"

Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them

I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.

That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"

Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them

I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.

That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.

So your stance is that merely targeting a unit is enough to qualify as having shot that unit, correct?

So now provide the rule that states this as we've been asking since page 1.

Slight off topic here - if you need LoS to nominate a target (which is before choosing a weapon), wouldn't that mean you can never shoot at a unit that is out of sight, even with weapons that don't require LoS?

 Happyjew wrote:
Slight off topic here - if you need LoS to nominate a target (which is before choosing a weapon), wouldn't that mean you can never shoot at a unit that is out of sight, even with weapons that don't require LoS?

Just apply the applicable more advanced rule over the more basic rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"

Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them

I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.

That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.

So your stance is that merely targeting a unit is enough to qualify as having shot that unit, correct?

So now provide the rule that states this as we've been asking since page 1.

Provide a rule that states you must

notredameguy10 wrote:
That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.

No actual quotes or references. Not suprising.
1) It does not actually state that, though.
2) Then when the unit targets something, and carries any Heavy, Salve, Rapid Fire, etc Weapon on its models it cannot Charge because they are considered shot.
3) EVERY instance of actual "shooting" in the rulebook, not just "shooting attack" or "shooting sequence", but "shooting" all by itself, involves weapons rolling To-Hit at some point. You cannot roll To-Hit unless in Range or resolve Line of Sight questions.

X078 wrote:Your example of a drunk friend is not exactly rules now is it? Mine has at least some relevance to the discussion.

Drawing a parallel using the same language with a different scenario is not the same as making up a story to explain something without reference to rules.

And yet a unit being able to shoot or declaring/nominating to shoot is not the same as the models firing. You can also check this in the rulebook.

While true, you yourself already agreed if none of the models in a unit can shoot the unit cannot shoot. I've already provided reference where nominating a unit to shoot requires that unit to be able to shoot.

Naw wrote:That doesn't matter because unit A targets enemy unit, at this moment unit B and unit C join in for CF attack. They become a single unit with members from units A, B and C. Only then we choose weapons AND range, as you point out. Why, as you quote the rules, do you fail to follow them?

So you're nominating units B and C to join the attack on what basis? Are you not using any form of the shooting sequence at all? If this is the case, why are you even bound by line of sight requirements if you simply have permission to add them to the attack without reference or regard to the shooting sequence? And of course even if you are able to, you've not proven that targeting is "adding their firepower to the attack".

Look, Mr. Shine, I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not supported by the rules.

You're the one yet to prove a unit has added their firepower simply by targeting, while I've provided numerous references from the rules to show the unit is not able to shoot at all, so cannot be nominated to do so (whether by itself, or as part of a Coordinated Firepower attack).

For CF the only trigger is that one unit selects a target (step 2). Right after the selection I can nominate others to add to the attack by declaring so and the there no longer are e.g. three separate units but one single unit. Then we move to choosing weapon groups and check if we have range.

You used the word "nominate". The rules require a unit be able to shoot before you can nominate it to do so. Also, again, it's not simply, "add to the attack" but rather, "add their firepower to the attack" if you wish to gain the +1 Ballistic Skill. What firepower is a unit that cannot shoot adding to the attack?

As you can see from above, we have satisfied the rules for Coordinated Firepower, we also trigger the rule to add +1BS. It affects everyone who is able to shoot.

You have Coordinated Firepower, sure, but you've not satisfied the condition for gaining +1 Ballistic Skill.

Think of this as having a single unit of 9 crisis suits, 3 with pods, 3 with plasma and 3 with flamer. Are you now trying to say that I'm not allowed to shoot because not everyone may have the range or that the unit doesn't count as having shot? That doesn't make sense.

What? This isn't about not being allowed to shoot. This is about the unit not gaining +1 Ballistic Skill. Stop claiming and then attacking something my argument is not.

carldooley wrote:Mr Shine, how many games do you play with that asinine interpretation of the rules? My lascannon cannot fire because the flamer (in the same unit) doesn't have range? THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! (unless you are trolling the thread, which I am beginning to think you are doing)

What's asinine is calling someone asinine (which means stupid) over the internet because you disagree with their argument. What's a fallacy is claiming they're arguing something they are not, and then attacking that argument. I have never once said the Coordinated Firepower unit may not shoot.

Do you have anyone you play that uses IG? do they use Infantry Platoons? you know how the Infantry Squads in the lists can combine to make a larger squad? that is what combined fire does, but only for the shooting phase (and they go back to discrete units after they fire). Coherency doesn't matter, because it isn't checked in the shooting phase, but as long as 3 or more squads join, they get +1 BS. Are you going to tell the IG player that 2\3rds of their 3 combined infantry squads are unable to fire, or that the lascannons\missile launchers\autocannons\mortars\heavy bolters\ et al cannot fire at a target because they are out of range of the laspistol held by the sergeants? that is what you are saying.

Again, you've completely missed what I'm saying. Whooooosh; the sound of my argument going completely and utterly over your head. I've never once said the Coordinated Firepower unit may not fire; I've said they don't receive the +1 Ballistic Skill unless three or more units have actually added their firepower to the attack, as the rules say.

Frankly, I could see infantry squads getting this in the next AM codex, as it works for enfilading shooting of their many squads. If that does happen, will the IoM players say that it wouldn't work for Tau but it works for them?

This has nothing to do with faction, and you're talking about rules which aren't even written. I suggest you step out of the discussion if you're not able to understand the arguments being discussed or the way in which those arguments are made.

_ghost_ wrote:So if we look at the shooting phase.

1. choose a unit with at least one model with a ranged weapon that has not already shot in that turn

This is wrong. Read step 1 of The Shooting Sequence. I'll provide it for you:

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

The unit must be able to shoot, as well as not having already shot that turn. And we know models that are not in range are not able to shoot. If all models in a unit are not in range then the unit is not able to shoot.

So if we have a unit with no weapon in range we still do everything of a shooting attack. ( keep in mind we also could to decide that any model or all of the unit dont shoot at all) The UNIT is still resolving a shooting attack.

If you reach a point in the shooting sequence where you are told the models in a unit (and by extension the unit as a whole) may not shoot, they may not shoot. It doesn't matter if you've reached step three and found you're unable to shoot; you can't claim, "I shot up to step 3, but then I wasn't actually allowed to shoot at all this phase."

CF does stat that we hav the aditional units to shoot at the same target. there is never mentioned that any model of said Unit makes one shoot. the UNIT is still shooting. ( in BRB terms this means it resolving a shooting attack.)

No, Coordinated Firepower requires the unit to add their firepower. You haven't proven nominating a unit to shoot or targeting (not that you are allowed to, given the nominated unit must be able to shoot, and being out of range makes you not able to shoot) means to add their firepower.

Mr. Shine is still using the wrong part of the rules. he always reffers to single models of a unit. but still. If a unit fires then this is always a shooting attack. At the begining of the page for the shootingphase this is statet.

No. Units are made up of models. If all models in a unit are not able to shoot the unit is not able to shoot. Indeed, "Who Can Shoot?" from the Shooting phase rules crosses models over with units. A unit cannot be considered to have shot if none of the models in it were allowed to shoot.

You claim I'm using the wrong part of the rules but you're either unable or unwilling to explain why that is the case, with reference to the rules. I could make a claim that your face is upside down, but it's a meaningless thing to say if I can't point to a picture to support my claim.

So please, support your claim. Don't just make another claim on top, but actually support it with a rules reference or quote.

Yarium wrote:Kanluwen - re-read what you just typed. You check the range and line of sight, but of those two only line of sight is a requirement, and is noted as such in the very next paragraph on that same page:

"To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen."

Notice how there's no similar heading for range. Range is only checked much later for which models can fire, not whether the unit can fire.

As I've said earlier in the discussion, the first time you're told to nominate a unit to shoot (under the numerical list of 'The Shooting Sequence' the requirement is the unit is able to shoot. Further on under 'Who Can Shoot' you have examples of what can prevent a model from firing. We know from later in the Shooting phase rules that being out of range makes models not able to shoot, and unless you wish to claim a unit may shoot even if no models in that unit are able to do so (which is silly) then at step 1 of the Shooting Sequence we know that being in range with at least one weapon is a requirement to be able to shoot.

notredameguy10 wrote:So basically its the "chicken or the egg" dilemma.

Do you become a "super unit" and then shoot with those who are able to
Do you have to be able to shoot in order to become a "super unit" (but is it actually "shooting" or just the shooting sequence)

Not quite, I think.

The units become one large unit for resolving their shooting attack. That is completely separate from the +1 Ballistic Skill. You could use Coordinated Firepower with two units and be using the rule, while not gaining +1 Ballistic Skill. What you must do is check within that super unit how many units are adding their firepower to the attack, so it's straightforward to both consider it as one super unit and note how many smaller units are adding their firepower within that super unit.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

No, it would have completed its part in the Shooting Phase. There is nothing stating the unit did any actual Shooting.

Quote or reference where it states choosing a target in Line of Sight is the only requirement for Shooting. This has yet to be done.

Step 2 of shooting phase: "Choose a target" - "The target can shoot at an enemy unit it can see"

Thus the only requirement for choosing a target is being able to see them

I don't see where it says the unit is Shooting in that step. Just choosing a target.

That is considered "shooting" as that is the shooting sequence. You are not reading CFP correctly.
You FIRST choose that the units combine into a "super unit"
THEN it says they must shoot the same target. So you start the shooting sequence and if they are not in range THEN they cannot fire. Nothing stops them from combining with the other units.

So your stance is that merely targeting a unit is enough to qualify as having shot that unit, correct?

So now provide the rule that states this as we've been asking since page 1.

Provide a rule that states you must

Coordinated Firepower states you must shoot. So you have any rules to support your position?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
If all models in a unit are not in range then the unit is not able to shoot.

Rules quote for this assertion? You will be able to find one that has to do with line of sight but not one that has to do with range.

The actual rules place a range restriction on models but not on units that are shooting. The only restriction placed on the unit that is shooting has to do with line of sight.

Per the rules, a unit can shoot at a target unit provided it has line of sight, even if it is wholly comprised of models that are out of range of the target unit. In this case, no models will have fired a shot but the unit itself will have completed shooting and will be unable to elect to run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Coordinated Firepower states you must shoot. So you have any rules to support your position?

Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.



The only requirement is that the unit can draw line of sight from one of its models to a model in the target unit.

Nowhere does it state that for a unit to shoot at least one of its models must be in range of a model in the target unit.

col_impact wrote:
Rules quote for this assertion? You will be able to find one that has to do with line of sight but not one that has to do with range.

From 'The Shooting Sequence':

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

And then from 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot':

"During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

Who Can Shoot?

Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:

• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.

This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."

It's simply ridiculous to claim that a unit's models being unable to shoot allows it to make a shooting attack, given reference is made to models being prevented from firing under the rules for nominating a unit to shoot.

The actual rules place a range restriction on models but not on units that are shooting. The only restriction placed on the unit that is shooting has to do with line of sight.

Per the rules, a unit can shoot at a target unit provided it has line of sight, even if it is wholly comprised of models that are out of range of the target unit. In this case, no models will have fired a shot but the unit itself will have completed shooting and will be unable to elect to run.

You haven't provided any rules to support your assertion that nominating a unit to shoot and finding all models within it are prevent from shooting or not allowed to shoot has the unit shooting. Those models are specifically not allowed to shoot, so how are you claiming the unit is shooting?

Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.

Spoiler:

The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

Able to shoot does not mean "has shot".

col_impact wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Coordinated Firepower states you must shoot. So you have any rules to support your position?

Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.

Spoiler:

The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

The only requirement is that the unit can draw line of sight from one of its models to a model in the target unit.

Nowhere does it state that for a unit to shoot at least one of its models must be in range of a model in the target unit.

So you've shown a unit can shoot at something it can see. Now show it has shot at that unit merely by targeting it. Also see Mr Shine's argument about who can shoot because you've even clipped that rule to falsely prove an entirely irrelevant point.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

X078 wrote:Your example of a drunk friend is not exactly rules now is it? Mine has at least some relevance to the discussion.

Drawing a parallel using the same language with a different scenario is not the same as making up a story to explain something without reference to rules.

My "story" is not so made up, check the OP's first post.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

And yet a unit being able to shoot or declaring/nominating to shoot is not the same as the models firing. You can also check this in the rulebook.

While true, you yourself already agreed if none of the models in a unit can shoot the unit cannot shoot. I've already provided reference where nominating a unit to shoot requires that unit to be able to shoot.

You keep saying i agree to things, i believe you are mixing up me stating units declaring to shoot and models being able to fire.

X078 wrote:
My "story" is not so made up, check the OP's first post.

It's completely made up so far as the rules are concerned. You're trying to make up a fluffy story to support your argument in a rules discussion. Please try using and referring to the actual rules instead.

You keep saying i agree to things, i believe you are mixing up me stating units declaring to shoot and models being able to fire.

You said:

X078 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
And a unit that has no models in range has no models that can shoot. If a unit has no models that can shoot that unit cannot shoot.

You can still declare to make a shooting attack, you just can't fire.

What the rules actually say is, "cannot shoot at all that phase". The unit declaring it is attempting to make a shooting attack is not actually making a shooting attack when no members of that unit are allowed to shoot. My response and your next response were:

X078 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Okay, now we agree the unit cannot shoot if all models in the unit cannot shoot... what do the rules say about nominating a unit to shoot? Let's look at the shooting sequence...

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

If we know the unit is not able to shoot by virtue of being out of range, you're unable to nominate that unit to shoot at all.

If you cannot nominate that unit to shoot, that unit is unable to select a target, or select a weapon. Done. Failed at the first step of the shooting sequence.

Able to shoot refers to that the unit is able to shoot i.e. it has not shot beforehand and so is still eligible this turn.

So you did not dispute it when I stated you agreed. Are you now claiming a unit may be nominated to shoot if none of its members are able to shoot, despite what step 1 of The Shooting Sequence says?

Please provide rules support if that is your contention.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

You haven't provided any rules to support your assertion that nominating a unit to shoot and finding all models within it are prevent from shooting or not allowed to shoot has the unit shooting. Those models are specifically not allowed to shoot, so how are you claiming the unit is shooting?

Per the rules, the unit is able to shoot.

Spoiler:

The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

Able to shoot does not mean "has shot".

For a unit to shoot it simply has to be legally permitted to go through the shooting process as outlined in the shooting sequence. As far as rules go, shooting for units is defined as being nominated to shoot and legally able to shoot and going through the shooting process. The unit can shoot if it has line of sight to the target unit. It can elect to participate in CF if it can shoot at the target unit. The +1 BS from CF is granted prior to any shots being fired, provided all units that join in shoot at the target unit. This is satisfied. The unit goes about shooting at the target unit, just no models can actually fire a shot due to being out of range. At the end of the shooting sequence, the unit will have completed shooting and will be unable to run, since the unit elected to shoot rather than run. Did the unit shoot? yes.

For a model to shoot it must have line of sight and be in range. If CF were dealing with models then CF would be restricted by line of sight and range. However, the rules for CF deal with the unit.

col_impact wrote:
As far as rules go, shooting for units is defined as being nominated to shoot and legally able to shoot and going through the shooting process.

Do you have a rules quote that actually says a unit has shot if it has gone through the process?

Do you have a rules quote that actually says a unit has shot if it has gone through some of the process, but has had all its members disallowed (and thus itself as a unit) from completing the shooting process?

The unit can shoot if it has line of sight to the target unit. It can elect to participate in CF if it can shoot at the target unit. The +1 BS from CF is granted prior to any shots being fired, provided all units that join in shoot at the target unit. This is satisfied.

An entire unit's models are disallowed from shooting at all that phase prior to any shots being fired, too.

The requirement for +1 Ballistic Skill is three units combining their firepower in the attack. If an entire unit's models are not shooting, has that unit added any firepower to the attack? If so, please provide some rules support to show that firepower has been added without any models in the unit being allowed to shoot.

The unit goes about shooting at the target unit, just no models can actually fire a shot due to being out of range. At the end of the shooting sequence, the unit will have completed shooting and will be unable to run, since the unit elected to shoot rather than run. Did the unit shoot? yes.

If no models in the unit can fire a shot, how has the unit added firepower?

Okay, so to select a target to shoot, you have to check range and line of sight. What is to stop me from saying, 'Oh it is out of range? Oh well.' and\or 'No Line of Sight? dang.' This is a shooting army. If I want to shoot at something I cannot hurt, who are you to stop me from making a mistake?

The point is, we are ALLOWED to target things we cannot damage. There are markerlights for the first - str0 shots that cannot wound anything, are you going to say that we cannot shoot your targets with markerlights because they won't do anything to the target?

Then there is the Smart Missile System, a weapon that requires no Line of Sight. Are you going to say that since the check for the weapon says to check LoS that we cannot use it? If so, I'll keep that in mind next time I play against barrage weapons.

Then also, there is the Pulse Accelerator. Frankly it should be erratad to affect only pulse carbines, otherwise it can be heavily abused with stormsurges.

The check is only so that we don't 'waste' our shooting. nothing is said that either has to pass. only that we check.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

It's completely made up so far as the rules are concerned. You're trying to make up a fluffy story to support your argument in a rules discussion. Please try using and referring to the actual rules instead.

Same as with your parallel, a scenario to support your own views on how one should interpret things.

X078 wrote:

You can still declare to make a shooting attack, you just can't fire.

Yeah models in a unit declaring to shoot might not be able to fire, due to LOS etc etc.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

So you did not dispute it when I stated you agreed. Are you now claiming a unit may be nominated to shoot if none of its members are able to shoot, despite what step 1 of The Shooting Sequence says?

So because you state something i must disagree otherwise i passively agree, nice rethoric

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Please provide rules support if that is your contention.

Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"

A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.

Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.

If no models in the unit can fire a shot, how has the unit added firepower?

What is firepower in game terms? Please point to a definition in the BRB. Otherwise you are trying to apply a fluffy understanding to make up some rule which you are not permitted to do.

CF only cares that a unit shoots at a target unit.

A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit). Once the unit shoots by going through the shooting process, it will no longer be able to shoot again or run, whether or not any actual shots were fired. The rules don't care whether or not the unit actually had models that were permitted to fire shots, only that the unit had line of sight and elected to go through the shooting process. Units can go ahead and shoot even if all models are out of range of the target unit.

 carldooley wrote:
Okay, so to select a target to shoot, you have to check range and line of sight. What is to stop me from saying, 'Oh it is out of range? Oh well.' and\or 'No Line of Sight? dang.' This is a shooting army. If I want to shoot at something I cannot hurt, who are you to stop me from making a mistake?

The point is, we are ALLOWED to target things we cannot damage. There are markerlights for the first - str0 shots that cannot wound anything, are you going to say that we cannot shoot your targets with markerlights because they won't do anything to the target?

Then there is the Smart Missile System, a weapon that requires no Line of Sight. Are you going to say that since the check for the weapon says to check LoS that we cannot use it? If so, I'll keep that in mind next time I play against barrage weapons.

Then also, there is the Pulse Accelerator. Frankly it should be erratad to affect only pulse carbines, otherwise it can be heavily abused with stormsurges.

The check is only so that we don't 'waste' our shooting. nothing is said that either has to pass. only that we check.

The rules don't require you to target the unit but to shoot it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit).

A claim repeatedly made but yet to be supported by rules. So please support this with rules.

Let me go through the link between models and units being able to shoot again, with the rules...

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn."

A unit must be able to shoot to be nominated to shoot. We all agree on this.

"NOMINATE A UNIT TO SHOOT

During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

Who Can Shoot?

Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:

• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running."

Okay, so now we get to the point of determining who can shoot. This is referring to models, sure. Let's continue on this same bit of rules, though...

"This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."

Wait, what? A unit's ability to shoot? I thought we were talking about models?

Oh, that's right. Units are made up of models:

"In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units."

So the ability of models to shoot affects the unit's ability to shoot. This is established as above, from the rules. If no models in a unit are able to shoot, that unit is not able to shoot.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The rules don't require you to target the unit but to shoot it.

so where is the issue? the CFP allows you to resolve all the shooting as though it was coming from a single (combined) unit. the units that contribute change status from 'can shoot' to 'already shot'. if your opponent is employing CFP without actually shooting your units, why stop them from making an error?

or as the saying goes, 'Never stop an enemy from making a grievous mistake.'

The only real issue that I have with Combined Firepower is the Stormsurge and its stabilizing anchors, by which is its ability to fire twice. if both are resolved seperately (as it says) can the stormsurge take part in 2 CFPs? or are the special rules employed 'shared' for both shots?

X078 wrote:
Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"

A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.

Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.

That same quote says, "that is able to shoot". As above, I've established from the rules that a unit's ability to shoot is dependent on its models' ability to shoot. If no models in a unit are able to shoot then that unit is unable to shoot, so cannot be nominated.

col_impact wrote:
What is firepower in game terms? Please point to a definition in the BRB. Otherwise you are trying to apply a fluffy understanding to make up some rule which you are not permitted to do.

Let's see what the rulebook says about firepower...

"There is one important exception to the rules for line of sight. Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there. This assumes that the models shift their stances to open firing lanes in order to maximise their own unit’s firepower."

That deals with line of sight, so firepower must be dependent on having line of sight. We agree on this, so let's keep digging...

"The distance a vehicle moves influences how accurately it can fire its weapons, as described later.

• Stationary. A vehicle that remains Stationary will be able to bring its full firepower to bear on the enemy.
• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.
• Cruising Speed. A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at Cruising Speed. This represents the vehicle concentrating on moving as fast as possible – all of its firepower will be wildly inaccurate."

Okay, so firepower must have something to do with the number of weapons a vehicle may fire at full effect. That suggests the number of shots it can hit with, given that vehicle movement affects a vehicle's ability to successfully hit things.

And that's all that I can find outside of fluff and flavour text in the rulebook, performing a search with the electronic version.

It seems evident to me that firepower then must require shots actually being fired, given what the vehicle rules say about firepower and the effect moving has on it.

A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit). Once the unit shoots by going through the shooting process, it will no longer be able to shoot again or run, whether or not any actual shots were fired. The rules don't care whether or not the unit actually had models that were permitted to fire shots, only that the unit had line of sight and elected to go through the shooting process. Units can go ahead and shoot even if all models are out of range of the target unit.

Still no rules to support this, I see.

Now you're describing "fluff" versions of "firepower" that have nothing to do with the actual rules.

And, once again, please stop trying to use "model" and "unit" interchangeably. They are not at all the same, and a unit is not just the sum of its models.

That same quote says, "that is able to shoot". As above, I've established from the rules that a unit's ability to shoot is dependent on its models' ability to shoot. If no models in a unit are able to shoot then that unit is unable to shoot, so cannot be nominated.

And still in the section:

"CHOOSE A TARGET
Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at. To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting. Note that you may check the range and line of sight to multiple enemy units before deciding which one to shoot at and declaring it to your opponent. You cannot target a unit that is locked in combat.

Line of Sight
To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no model has line of sight, then a different target must be chosen."

You must check LOS and range but nothing says you cannot select a target even if you are out of range. In fact only LOS is picked out as being a must.
A little further down you can also read:

"A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit. "

So i have established that a unit can declare to shoot but also that i can choose not to fire certain models if i want to.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

A unit shoots when it is legally able to go through the shooting process (which only requires that the unit has line of sight to the target unit). Once the unit shoots by going through the shooting process, it will no longer be able to shoot again or run, whether or not any actual shots were fired. The rules don't care whether or not the unit actually had models that were permitted to fire shots, only that the unit had line of sight and elected to go through the shooting process. Units can go ahead and shoot even if all models are out of range of the target unit.

Still no rules to support this, I see.

I am going directly off the rules in the BRB. I select a unit that has not gone through the shooting process before and the unit shoots at a enemy unit that it can see. The CF rules only require that the units shoot at the same target unit. So long as I am permitted to go through the shooting process against the same target unit with the 3 units I have selected, then the CF +1 BS will confer. The rules do not require that at least one model must be in range for the unit to shoot at the enemy unit, only that it has line of sight.

X078 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Please provide rules support if that is your contention.

Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"

A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.

Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.

Having nominated something to shoot is not the same as having that same thing have shot.

And the CF rule has a requirement of Shooting, not just targeting or thinking about shooting, it must actually shoot. In order to shoot, To-Hit rolls or the placement of templates must occur, as the step right before states that they cannot shoot if they fail to meet LOS, Range, and Snap Shot requirements.

 Peregrine wrote:
Now you're describing "fluff" versions of "firepower" that have nothing to do with the actual rules.

No. The rules quite clearly explain how movement affects a vehicle's firepower. Considering movement affects a vehicle's ability to successfully hit with its shots, we can only conclude that per the rulebook firepower must mean shots. It has nothing to do with fluff.

And, once again, please stop trying to use "model" and "unit" interchangeably. They are not at all the same, and a unit is not just the sum of its models.

I've just explained how the rules show us how a model's ability to shoot affects a unit's ability to shoot. If the rulebook uses model and unit interchangeably in talking about nominating a unit to shoot and determining who can shoot then so can I.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
I am going directly off the rules in the BRB. I select a unit that has not gone through the shooting process before and the unit shoots at a enemy unit that it can see. The CF rules only require that the units shoot at the same target unit. So long as I am permitted to go through the shooting process against the same target unit with the 3 units I have selected, then the CF +1 BS will confer. The rules do not require that at least one model must be in range for the unit to shoot at the enemy unit, only that it has line of sight.

You're also conveniently ignoring where I showed you what the rulebook has to say about firepower, as you requested.

Yes, let's just handwave away inconvenient rules we don't agree with, then claim they're not there.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
No. The rules quite clearly explain how movement affects a vehicle's firepower. Considering movement affects a vehicle's ability to successfully hit with its shots, we can only conclude that per the rulebook firepower must mean shots. It has nothing to do with fluff.

Except "firepower" in that sentence has no game-rules meaning. It's a fluff description of why the vehicle's speed matters. You never see a rule like "all of a model's firepower is BS 5 this turn", it would be written as "all of a model's shooting attacks are BS 5 this turn".

I've just explained how the rules show us how a model's ability to shoot affects a unit's ability to shoot. If the rulebook uses model and unit interchangeably in talking about nominating a unit to shoot and determining who can shoot then so can I.

You've done no such thing because the rules do not require any particular model to be able to shoot. The rules very clearly refer to selecting a target for the UNIT, applying the "can not run if you choose to shoot" rule to the UNIT, forcing a UNIT to charge the target that it shot at, etc. The shooting process from picking a target to ending the sequence and moving on to the next unit applies to the UNIT. Some of the steps may be resolved very quickly if no MODELS fire weapons, but the UNIT as a whole has still shot.

Charistoph wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Please provide rules support if that is your contention.

Sure thing:
"The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn"

A unit can be nominated to shoot even if its members are found to be out range, don't want to fire etc.

Please provide rules support for this not being allowed.

Having nominated something to shoot is not the same as having that same thing have shot.

And the CF rule has a requirement of Shooting, not just targeting or thinking about shooting, it must actually shoot. In order to shoot, To-Hit rolls or the placement of templates must occur, as the step right before states that they cannot shoot if they fail to meet LOS, Range, and Snap Shot requirements.

The CF rule has the requirement that the units shoot at the same target unit. This is not a model-based requirement. For a unit to shoot only line of sight is required. The unit completes its shooting by going through the shooting process. The rules do not care whether or not any shots are fired.

In any shooting situation, a player can freely opt for all models to not fire any shots of any weapon whether in range or not. A player that opts for all models in a unit to fire no shots (whether in range or not) still has a unit that has gone through shooting at that target unit and that unit can no longer opt to shoot again or to run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am going directly off the rules in the BRB. I select a unit that has not gone through the shooting process before and the unit shoots at a enemy unit that it can see. The CF rules only require that the units shoot at the same target unit. So long as I am permitted to go through the shooting process against the same target unit with the 3 units I have selected, then the CF +1 BS will confer. The rules do not require that at least one model must be in range for the unit to shoot at the enemy unit, only that it has line of sight.

You're also conveniently ignoring where I showed you what the rulebook has to say about firepower, as you requested.

Yes, let's just handwave away inconvenient rules we don't agree with, then claim they're not there.

You have shown no definition of firepower nor any rules associated with firepower (beyond firepower being used as a fluffy descriptor). In all examples you have provided it is merely descriptive fluff. It is up to you to define firepower unequivocally in game terms. This is going to be hard to do since the BRB index does not recognize it as a keyword.

 Peregrine wrote:
Except "firepower" in that sentence has no game-rules meaning. It's a fluff description of why the vehicle's speed matters. You never see a rule like "all of a model's firepower is BS 5 this turn", it would be written as "all of a model's shooting attacks are BS 5 this turn".

Sorry, but I don't buy that I'm not allowed to consider a rulebook's mention of the word "firepower" in proper context just because it doesn't have a glossary entry saying, "firepower means shots".

Even if that's the case though, you've got zero argument to say that combining firepower means simply shooting (but not actually shooting, because no models in the unit are permitted to shoot at all that phase, at one point in the shooting sequence or another) the same target, either. Shooting the same target is a restriction on units which are combining their firepower, but that doesn't define what combining firepower is. For example, to legally drive a car you must have a driver's licence, but having a driver's licence does not define legally driving a car.

You've done no such thing because the rules do not require any particular model to be able to shoot. The rules very clearly refer to selecting a target for the UNIT, applying the "can not run if you choose to shoot" rule to the UNIT, forcing a UNIT to charge the target that it shot at, etc. The shooting process from picking a target to ending the sequence and moving on to the next unit applies to the UNIT. Some of the steps may be resolved very quickly if no MODELS fire weapons, but the UNIT as a whole has still shot.

So the following reference to models and unit in the same portion of rules (which is, 'Nominate a Unit to Shoot' is meaningless, then?

"Who Can Shoot?

Certain situations prevent a model from firing. The most common are:

• Their unit is locked in close combat with the foe.
• Their unit is running.

This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit’s ability to shoot – this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."

It's evident that models' ability to fire affects a unit's ability to shoot. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned in the explanation of nominating a unit to shoot.

col_impact wrote:
The CF rule has the requirement that the units shoot at the same target unit. This is not a model-based requirement. For a unit to shoot only line of sight is required. The unit completes its shooting by going through the shooting process. The rules do not care whether or not any shots are fired.

Indeed, that is a requirement for Coordinated Firepower. It's not a requirement for gaining +1 Ballistic Skill, though. The requirement for that is three or more units combining their firepower. You've also still not shown where the rules say that a unit is considered as shooting when it's found to have no models able to shoot. The rules clearly say a unit that wishes to shoot must do certain things, but you've yet to provide anything that says a unit has shot prior to us knowing definitively this has happened once To Hit rolls are made.

In any shooting situation, a player can freely opt for all models to not fire any shots of any weapon whether in range or not. A player that opts for all models in a unit to fire no shots (whether in range or not) still has a unit that has gone through shooting at that target unit and that unit can no longer opt to shoot again or to run.

So you're saying a player can say, "Unit A is going to shoot your Unit 1. I am going to elect not to shoot with all models," and the unit has shot? Please provide rules which say a unit has shot without any shots having been made or rolled for.

You have shown no definition of firepower nor any rules associated with firepower (beyond firepower being used as a fluffy descriptor). In all examples you have provided it is merely descriptive fluff. It is up to you to define firepower unequivocally in game terms. This is going to be hard to do since the BRB index does not recognize it as a keyword.

If there's no definition of firepower, how are you telling when three or more units have combined their firepower? What are they combining? Can you show me in the rules where firepower is defined as shooting the same target? Once again, shooting the same target is something a unit adding their firepower to a Coordinated Firepower attack must do, but that's an additionally-stated requirement and not definitive.