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AllSeeingSkink wrote: That's an unnecessary simplification which borders on insulting at times.
Pain is nature's way of telling you something's wrong.
Yeah, that ignorant simplifications can be insulting ignorant simplifications
But if you want some elaboration...
Why thank you sir, how kind of you...
GW don't have to have a mind worm, players can independently identify that Warhammer: The Game better represents Warhammer: The Fluff.
Mostly because GW have crammed so many special rules in to act as mock-fluff, which a lot of the time are arbitrary mechanics and modifiers that bear relation to the fluff only in that they have a title.
Warhammer: The Game was always written to sell Warhammer: The Miniatures which live in the land of Warhammer: The Fluff.
Maybe that's the underlying problem.
A problem? Or something some people actually prefer? No... it can't be that, it must be that people are brainwashed and simply lack your insight.... yes... that makes much more sense. /sarcasm
Some people are quite happy with a game that was written to sell models as long as it isn't completely horrible. It's a sliding scale, not black and white, AoS and more recent editions of 40k are showing that many people are getting pushed off the end of the scale, but a company spending time making sure the fluff fits within the rules rather than the rules exist and then the fluff is projected on top of that is exactly what many people want.
... that's alright, but like Puree you're missing the point. Some consider it inherently impossible to use fluff with other games at all. Not just "I like warhammer world with warhammer better" but "if you play KoW you have to use Mantica fluff".
I doubt anyone finds it "inherently impossible". Unless you can link me to where someone actually said that (in which case I will just shrug it off as being a crazy person or hyperbole ).
People don't think in extremes like that. I doubt anyone (or very few people) will think it's inherently impossible, they just won't like doing it. Some people actually want some sense of immersion when playing a wargame, some people to the point where playing the game written for the models is more important than playing the game with subjectively better rules which you then apply your own fluff on top of.
But anyway, I'd love you to link me to some of this evidence that there are people who think that it's inherently impossible.... or was that just unnecessary extrapolation, or perhaps unnecessary hyperbole?
It's entirely possible for someone to like something different to you without them being brainwashed or ignorant or immature. Surprising I know
Why is that a bad reason? Gaming communities have a tendency to drop games that aren't officially supported for plenty of good reasons (difficulty getting rules,
In some quarters 8th ed was dropped like a snake just as AoS was released. I think there might still have been some rulebooks floating around then. Including the ones on home bookshelves. And if 9th Age is basically tweaked 8th, and available online for the forseeable future, well...
That's a pretty poor excuse for thinking that it's a bad reason.
difficulty deciding on which version to use
Given GW's history of rules churn with little actual change or improvement, I'm not sure if that's entirely a 'good' reason.
It is a real reason, multiple editions exist and not everyone agrees on which one is best. This is a real hurdle.
You can keep playing, Skinky. Without GW's consent, and as long as you're able
I'm getting bored so I'll just address this point rather than trying to go through the rest. My response to this is...
Reality is that communities shrink once a game becomes unsupported. One of the fun things about wargaming; meeting new people, tends to drop off once a game is no longer supported.
It happens for a lot of good/real reasons, you can try and spin them to sound like "bad" reasons but they are reasons simply because that's the way things work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/18 06:11:46
Vermis wrote: I'd still call it an excuse rather than a reason, for what Korinov already said. It's not a valid reason. It's not even at the level of "because I just don't fething want to", because it's not expressing personal preference, but faulty reasoning. Countless players (including yourself) can demonstrate that you can use the KoW rules without any reference to Mantica. If folk think that all those who made the exodus from 8th ed to KoW with their WFB armies, mimicked GW by completely abandoning the old world, and fully embraced Mantica, that just makes their reasoning more... lame.
Ultimately, though, you can use the WHFB rules without reference to the Olde Worlde.
The differences beteen Brettonian Knights Errant, Knights Questing, and so on, are purely artificial. They do not reflect an underlying reality like the differences between the Knights Templar and Knight Crusaders of actual history.
You can always find a reason to use or not to use the GW invented special rules in a game. You cannot ignore the role of the military orders in battles of the later crusades, except when you are going to do an alternate history type of fantastic game.
The inherently impossible back and forth is funny. For it to be inherently impossible for a person to play game A using models ifrom game B, there would actually have tonbe something that made the essence or physicality of it impossible.
It's inherently impossible to play war games using plastic pieces in the ISS where there is no gravity, just as it is inherently impossible to play computer games without software or electricity. But anything that is actually possible, by definition, can't be inherently impossible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/18 12:36:24
Talys wrote: However, being the type of hobbyist/gamer that I am, I usually won't give a small company a chance, until they get to the size and popularity of PP/FFG (WMH or X-Wing). I like small and scrappy, and I can deal with small player pool.
But I would rather go with large catalog and fair certainty that the game will exist for a long time with lots of new releases not contingent on factors beyond their control, which is a promise that small or young companies can't truthfully make. I am not happy building armies from a company that relies on one brilliant sculptor, no matter how awesome he is, because if he is hit by a truck tomorrow, nothing new will likely come. Yeah, companies are not going to get big without people supporting them (or a big investor so that they can go big, and go fast), but that's not really my problem; I'd rather support the incumbent "big worlds" and pay the premium they command than go with the uncertainty of what the release cadence for a startup game world.
And, sadly, there are very few large companies in the scifi wargaming world. As I discovered just the other day, thanks to Azrael13's link to Companies House, Mantic is actually a tiny company (likely more than 10 employees, definitely less than 50, and net sales below something like 6 million GBP and balance sheet total less than half that... or something in that order of magnitude).
And yet, as GW has shown us with WHFB/AoS, no matter how long a game has been around, there's no guarantee that the company won't turn around and drop it or change it enough to make it unrecognizable. I think that KoW and similar games are kind of the antidote. Even if KoW doesn't last, it at leasts give you the opportunity to get another few years of use out of the minis you love. If KoW dies, there will still be other options (in addition to continuing with OOPKoW or WHFB versions) for fantasy rules to bring your figs to the table.
Luckily I've long since disconnected rules and figs. My 40k figs haven't seen a 40k "game" in years, but they've been on the table with Warpath 1.0, In The Emperor's Name, etc, WarEngine, etc. and usually in a 40k setting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/18 15:56:31
Kilkrazy wrote: You could play a great space navy wargame in the ISS, though.
And like the old hex wargames of old, the outcome of an entire game can be destroyed by one strong sneeze....
Has anyone seen where my Kennedy Class Missile Cruiser flew off to when Bob had his Arklesiezure of Doom??
The Auld Grump... sneezes in zero G probably aren't fun... for the person sneezing, at least.
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Yeah, the "Free rules" and army lists that Mantic offers have been very slowly becoming less an less complete. Luckily as you point out easy army has all the units and everything you need to use them should be (possibly excepting some magic items?...) in the free rulebook.
That said, when the "gamer" size rulebook- is available for $20 or the full size rulebook is only $35 (both of which have the same rules and army lists) it's almost a no-brainer to own a hard copy.
Yeah, the "Free rules" and army lists that Mantic offers have been very slowly becoming less an less complete. Luckily as you point out easy army has all the units and everything you need to use them should be (possibly excepting some magic items?...) in the free rulebook.
That said, when the "gamer" size rulebook- is available for $20 or the full size rulebook is only $35 (both of which have the same rules and army lists) it's almost a no-brainer to own a hard copy.
They full lists are also in BattleScribe, complete with magic items.
I have both the hardcover and the 'Gamer' sized book... the 'Gamer' sized book lives in my book bag, and gets pulled out when I am mulling over lists. Much as I like the hardcover, it is the gamer edition that I actually use.
Ye gods and little fishies... I fuss with my lists a lot! There is always some combination that I want to try, and the Uncharted Empires added a couple of lists that I really want to try. (Empire of Dust and The Herd.)
The Auld Grump - I swear, fussing with my lists is half the fun....
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Yeah, the "Free rules" and army lists that Mantic offers have been very slowly becoming less an less complete. Luckily as you point out easy army has all the units and everything you need to use them should be (possibly excepting some magic items?...) in the free rulebook.
That said, when the "gamer" size rulebook- is available for $20 or the full size rulebook is only $35 (both of which have the same rules and army lists) it's almost a no-brainer to own a hard copy.
They full lists are also in BattleScribe, complete with magic items.
I have both the hardcover and the 'Gamer' sized book... the 'Gamer' sized book lives in my book bag, and gets pulled out when I am mulling over lists. Much as I like the hardcover, it is the gamer edition that I actually use.
Ye gods and little fishies... I fuss with my lists a lot! There is always some combination that I want to try, and the Uncharted Empires added a couple of lists that I really want to try. (Empire of Dust and The Herd.)
The Auld Grump - I swear, fussing with my lists is half the fun....
I should clarify. I know Easy army has the magic items, I just don't know if the free online rules do. Do they?
I'm not sure why, but I really like the big books, even when gaming. I split the rulebook pledge in the KS with a buddy. He got the small book and I'm glad I took the big one.
As for Fussing, I do very little fussing with my lists, but then I don't play all that often. I really need to get Uncharted Empires as I've been using mostly the Kindgoms of Men list to represent my Chaos warriors til now.
Yeah, the "Free rules" and army lists that Mantic offers have been very slowly becoming less an less complete. Luckily as you point out easy army has all the units and everything you need to use them should be (possibly excepting some magic items?...) in the free rulebook.
That said, when the "gamer" size rulebook- is available for $20 or the full size rulebook is only $35 (both of which have the same rules and army lists) it's almost a no-brainer to own a hard copy.
They full lists are also in BattleScribe, complete with magic items.
I have both the hardcover and the 'Gamer' sized book... the 'Gamer' sized book lives in my book bag, and gets pulled out when I am mulling over lists. Much as I like the hardcover, it is the gamer edition that I actually use.
Ye gods and little fishies... I fuss with my lists a lot! There is always some combination that I want to try, and the Uncharted Empires added a couple of lists that I really want to try. (Empire of Dust and The Herd.)
The Auld Grump - I swear, fussing with my lists is half the fun....
I should clarify. I know Easy army has the magic items, I just don't know if the free online rules do. Do they?
I'm not sure why, but I really like the big books, even when gaming. I split the rulebook pledge in the KS with a buddy. He got the small book and I'm glad I took the big one.
As for Fussing, I do very little fussing with my lists, but then I don't play all that often. I really need to get Uncharted Empires as I've been using mostly the Kindgoms of Men list to represent my Chaos warriors til now.
Except for our League, I fuss with my list every freakin' time.
Our League has an odd format - 1,500 points are 'fixed' and 500 points can be changed around, so you can make an army to deal with the person that you are facing (who can use their 500 points to make an army for dealing with you).
Seems like a good idea, but most of us made up 2,000 point armies, and use them as is.
Right now I am first in our League, with my good lady and another female player tied for second. (They had a game where at the end there was a single model on the table... the most bloody game that I had seen in a while - not surprisingly, that game ended up being a tie.)
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
I should clarify. I know Easy army has the magic items, I just don't know if the free online rules do. Do they?
No, they don't. But I can't see any reason not to have at least the Gamer's Edition. I grabbed mine directly from Mantic ar Gencon, and it's great, even after my son chewed on it.
I like the hardcover for that quality, but I don't need the fluff. My games are either going to be in the Warhammer Old World, or a version of the Nerath setting from DnD, that I altered for a RPG I was going to run with an awesome free D20 ruleset called Heroes against Darkness.
As for settings linked to rules and miniatures, hell. In non-wargaming settings, I've only played one long-term RPG ruleset that even used the same company's rules and setting together (Savage Worlds and their Shaintar high-fantasy setting).
Lol, I'm pretty sure a very small percentage of Sedition Wars sales sees anyone use those minis for that ruleset/game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/18 23:38:08
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: No, they don't. But I can't see any reason not to have at least the Gamer's Edition. I grabbed mine directly from Mantic at Gencon, and it's great, even after my son chewed on it.
Your son has great tastes in games!
The Auld Grump - my good lady is getting us a puppy... I fear for my books....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/18 23:56:40
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
).
