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nareik wrote:
The best use I heard for the Manta is using it as a game board.

Idk why every ones sayin they are hard to display. Just drill dome hoops into it and put that beast on the ceiling over ur game board. One day the manta will be mine but I need to fill my air caste first.

FWIW, Frontline Gaming has published their own top GW sellers for 2015 starting at about 5 minutes...




Betrayal at Calth
Eldar Windrider Bikes
Drop Pods
Skittari Rangers
Ghostkeel
Skyrunner HQ Eldar bikes
Onager Walker
Ironstrider Strider
Codex Space Marines
Knight Warden

No AOS in sight just like on GW's list. As Reecius says, the list is mostly populated by new model stuff (unsurprising for the admech especially as they're all completely new for a new faction) and ridiculously buffed units like drop pods (free in the OP gladius formation) and eldar bikes with biker leaders. BAC is on the top likely because of the sheer value of the models in that kit.

As usual, apply salt as needed. YMMV. *insert anecdotal dismissal here* Frontline gaming is pretty 40k heavy but frankly (no Frankie pun intended) so is most of the world seemingly.

Keep in mind that FLG gives an extra discount on the entire order if you buy anything in preorder. So, if you buy a preorder item, you get 25% discount on everything, including the landraider -- I think that weights the new releases a little bit.

Also, IMO, FLG's website is somewhere that people who game a lot go to; they have useful resources there, and that may also influence who buys stuff from them online.

That being said, there's a lot of overlap between the GW list and the FLG list, with the notable exception of eldar bikes. Skittari, Imperial Knight, CSM, Drop Pods are all on both lists.

I find it a little surprising that the Eldar HQ bike is a top seller, being an expensive clampack and all that. I'm also surprised Ghostkeel makes the list near the top, only because it had so little time to sell.

On the other hand, I was really shocked that the Eldar Windrider didn't make the GW list. I thought that would be a sure thing, especially since it sold out for a while.

You could go back to the conspiracy theory that GW knows they get flak for their poor balance and lied on the list to hide that overpowered models sell more.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You could go back to the conspiracy theory that GW knows they get flak for their poor balance and lied on the list to hide that overpowered models sell more.

We've debated that very theory in our gaming group mostly, the windriders... and we all thought there would be an uptick of wraith units. Incidentally, the store I shop at went from selling a lot of wave serpents to nearly none

Against that theory are drop pods. There really isn't any other reason for them to be a bestseller after this many years other than its dollar to efficiency ratio.

 Talys wrote:

Against that theory are drop pods. There really isn't any other reason for them to be a bestseller after this many years other than its dollar to efficiency ratio.

Except that they got two great buffs in the latest codex that made them and the entire formation they're in stupid good...namely they cost ZERO points and are obsec like most if not all of the popular gladius formation army they're taken in. They help prove the theory that OP rules sell models at least for Frontline's decidedly 40k tourney centric clientele.

OTOH, the Wraithknight isn't on the FLG list... And lord knows there's whinging over that model.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, the Wraithknight isn't on the FLG list... And lord knows there's whinging over that model.

John, you're comparing a $115 model that you can only take a few of max in one xenos codex to a $37 model you can take ten or more of available in four or five codex books including the single biggest selling faction? Of course the latter will sell more models total. Two wrongs don't make a right and the cheesiness of a marine formation in no way excuses the massive undercoating of the wraithknight.

How, exactly, can anything be more undercosted than FREE?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
How, exactly, can anything be more undercosted than FREE?

It's not a contest. Two wrongs don't make a right. Whether one "wins" by being 100% undercoated (the drop pod) versus the other "winning" by total points (100+ under for the wraithknight), we all lose as a community.

 warboss wrote:

 Talys wrote:

Against that theory are drop pods. There really isn't any other reason for them to be a bestseller after this many years other than its dollar to efficiency ratio.

Except that they got two great buffs in the latest codex that made them and the entire formation they're in stupid good...namely they cost ZERO points and are obsec like most if not all of the popular gladius formation army they're taken in. They help prove the theory that OP rules sell models at least for Frontline's decidedly 40k tourney centric clientele.

Oh, you misunderstand me (I think). I think drop pods on GW and FLG lists are the perfect example of people buying models for gaming advantage. They're super cheap (dollar wise) and Astartes have multiple paths to filling up with them. Not only that, these are models that don't require rocket science to get good mileage out of.

I think pods are a point against the conspiracy theory that GW is rigging the list to not contain powerful units -- as opposed to windriders, which would be a point for the coinspiracy, being excluded to 'prove' people don't buy 'op' models. Like pods, they're easy to populate to high numbers, and effective even for poor players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
How, exactly, can anything be more undercosted than FREE?

It's not a contest. Two wrongs don't make a right. Whether one "wins" by being 100% undercoated (the drop pod) versus the other "winning" by total points (100+ under for the wraithknight), we all lose as a community.

What's interesting is that both FLG and GW have IK as bestselling but not WK. Arguably, at least I would argue, Wraithknight is just way better for the points. And the new formation makes it easy to have lots, though ITC limits that severely.

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
How, exactly, can anything be more undercosted than FREE?

It's not a contest.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Whether one "wins" by being 100% undercoated (the drop pod) versus the other "winning" by total points (100+ under for the wraithknight), we all lose as a community.

Actually, it is.

And yes, they do. It's called "balance".

The WK isn't undercosted AT ALL, given the limitations on what it actually does (or is intended to do), which is to put a brake on the IKTs and other mega-units in 7E. One might argue that the WK is actually underpowered, given that the IKT went #2 on the GW list and the WK was far behind. The WK Rock isn't insta-deleting the Imperial and other uber units fast enough to provide provide the proper automatic counter that GW intended as Rock to balance in the metagame, allowing IG / CSM Paper to flourish in the absence if IKT Scissors.

I suspect that my newly-acquired IKT has far more metagame potential the WK I acquired last year, and is clearly worth the additional points. The WK, while good, and as cheap as GW could price it, simply hasn't shifted the metagame to the point that it's a Top 25 / Top 10 model.

The WK isn't undercosted AT ALL

One might argue that the WK is actually underpowered

Found the Eldar player.

Also, did you seriously just say that the WK allows CSMs and IG to play competitively well? Really?

You've actually found two since he's arguing with me. There are Craftworld Eldar and there are Kraftworld Eldar.

I'm also an IG, marine, and Tau player whose favorite army used to be Speed Freak Orks in 3rd edition (hence the username here on dakka) but I try to not let my own armies color my opinions on what is or isn't fair in the game (even if I don't play it much since 6th edition started the apocalypsification of the game that I dislike).

I'll rephrase that, then....

Found the biased Eldar player!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Actually, it is.

And yes, they do. It's called "balance".

The WK isn't undercosted AT ALL, given the limitations on what it actually does (or is intended to do), which is to put a brake on the IKTs and other mega-units in 7E. One might argue that the WK is actually underpowered, given that the IKT went #2 on the GW list and the WK was far behind. The WK Rock isn't insta-deleting the Imperial and other uber units fast enough to provide provide the proper automatic counter that GW intended as Rock to balance in the metagame, allowing IG / CSM Paper to flourish in the absence if IKT Scissors.

I suspect that my newly-acquired IKT has far more metagame potential the WK I acquired last year, and is clearly worth the additional points. The WK, while good, and as cheap as GW could price it, simply hasn't shifted the metagame to the point that it's a Top 25 / Top 10 model.

John, the top 28 GW or top 10 FLGS list isn't the sole and complete indicator of cheese in the game. I think you'll find your opinion on the WK being fairly priced let alone underpowered to be in the minority.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The WK isn't undercosted AT ALL

One might argue that the WK is actually underpowered

Found the Eldar player.

Also, did you seriously just say that the WK allows CSMs and IG to play competitively well? Really?

Given my sig specifies 9,000 pts of Eldar, and it's my largest 40k army, I'm assuming that was quite the feat of detective work. For you.

If the WK did a better job of auto-nuking IKTs and similar mega-units, it would bring the overall meta closer to 5E where IG and CSM were less uncompetitive.

No, it would bring the meta to the point where Eldar would be even more above the rest. IG and CSM would still be below trench-tier. All that would change is that every other army in the game would have a harder time beating Eldar.

Oh I don't worry, it was a giant feat to make a 'found the ___' joke. I had to have a power nap afterwards because it was such an intensive exercise. You know, I might just go have another quick nap, I still feel exhausted.

 warboss wrote:
John, the top 28 GW or top 10 FLGS list isn't the sole and complete indicator of cheese in the game.

I think you'll find your opinion on the WK being fairly priced let alone underpowered to be in the minority.

It's a pretty decent indicator of popularity crossed with power. Note the total lack of Mutilators, Possessed, Ogryns, Rough Riders, Howling Banshees and similar crap units. Note the #2 spot being the IKT.

Well, yeah. The WK didn't even make top 28 in the GW list. It got outsold by multiple WFB kits, for pity's sake. Craftworld Eldar are very clearly a small minority of players, and no perceived power bump on the occasional model is sufficient to catapult them into the majority. Unlike Tau, which got their brand new Stormsurge on the board. And the Harlequins which got 2 kits up.

 Talys wrote:
Well, the entire tangent started off because of the Tau titan that most of us have never seen and its practicality. I do agree that, for most people, length and width are much greater impediments than height when determining the suitability of owning a large model, especially when a model has both both length and width (like a bomber, compared to a man-o-war).

Hence, the attraction of titans to companies like GW, I guess

I wonder if 40k will ever contain naval units? It would be kind of a cool game. Instead of infantry and air, you could have water-based models (and air), on a board set against blue instead of green/brown/grey. Imagine all the cool water terrain (floating fortresses, etc). Battles set on oceanic planets with big rigs designed to extract precious minerals and all that.

The summer of floaters!

Suddenly everyone will be running out to buy units with the Seafire ability!

 Talys wrote:
I think pods are a point against the conspiracy theory that GW is rigging the list to not contain powerful units -- as opposed to windriders, which would be a point for the coinspiracy, being excluded to 'prove' people don't buy 'op' models. Like pods, they're easy to populate to high numbers, and effective even for poor players.

When you're dodgying up a list, you don't go and say "oh, what is clearly popular because it's overpowered, lets ignore those" You make your list without dodgying it up and then go "hmmm, Eldar jetbikes in the #3 spot.... hmmm, lets pretend that didn't happen".

The best way to doctor results is use reality up until it no longer suits your needs and then make small changes until it does

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I think pods are a point against the conspiracy theory that GW is rigging the list to not contain powerful units -- as opposed to windriders, which would be a point for the coinspiracy, being excluded to 'prove' people don't buy 'op' models. Like pods, they're easy to populate to high numbers, and effective even for poor players.

When you're dodgying up a list, you don't go and say "oh, what is clearly popular because it's overpowered, lets ignore those" You make your list without dodgying it up and then go "hmmm, Eldar jetbikes in the #3 spot.... hmmm, lets pretend that didn't happen".

The best way to doctor results is use reality up until it no longer suits your needs and then make small changes until it does

Heh, yup Hence, our local conspiracy theory debate! (and of course, this one at Dakka! )

 Talys wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You could go back to the conspiracy theory that GW knows they get flak for their poor balance and lied on the list to hide that overpowered models sell more.

We've debated that very theory in our gaming group mostly, the windriders... and we all thought there would be an uptick of wraith units. Incidentally, the store I shop at went from selling a lot of wave serpents to nearly none

Against that theory are drop pods. There really isn't any other reason for them to be a bestseller after this many years other than its dollar to efficiency ratio.

That's what I was thinking, but if we accept the conspiracy theory maybe Drop Pods aren't selling well and GW are trying to boost them. Once you start down the conspiracy rabbit hole, there's no end of the weird twists and turns that you can discover.

But being realistic, there are a lot of 40K players, and a high proportion of them have SM armies -- in fact SM armies are particularly popular with new beginners. If you have an SM army it makes good sense to have at least one to three drop pods in your vehicle park.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Talys wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You could go back to the conspiracy theory that GW knows they get flak for their poor balance and lied on the list to hide that overpowered models sell more.

We've debated that very theory in our gaming group mostly, the windriders... and we all thought there would be an uptick of wraith units. Incidentally, the store I shop at went from selling a lot of wave serpents to nearly none

Against that theory are drop pods. There really isn't any other reason for them to be a bestseller after this many years other than its dollar to efficiency ratio.

That's what I was thinking, but if we accept the conspiracy theory maybe Drop Pods aren't selling well and GW are trying to boost them. Once you start down the conspiracy rabbit hole, there's no end of the weird twists and turns that you can discover.

But being realistic, there are a lot of 40K players, and a high proportion of them have SM armies -- in fact SM armies are particularly popular with new beginners. If you have an SM army it makes good sense to have at least one to three drop pods in your vehicle park.

The drop pods aren't really out of place if you accept that BA Tacticals, SM Tacticals, SM Devs and the LR Crusader are all in the list.

The surprising thing is the complete lack of Eldar. I believe most of the "new release" stuff is represented in the top 28 list except for Eldar and AoS, and I thought Eldar have always been a popular faction, more so with their overpoweredness. Even before jetbikes were so badly OP I was holding out for GW to release a new jetbike set and I'm not even an Eldar player, I know a lot of people were (probably more than are holding out for plastic Sisters ).

I think Eldar get over represented on open gaming tables as they are a competitive army and competitive players seem to like getting more 'practice' games in than any other type of player. They are also more likely to attend competitive events, further enhancing the illusion of the scale of popularity of Eldar.

As long as I've been collecting (2nd) it seems Eldar has always had a following, I certainly would have expected more so than Tyranids who got several kits on the top 28.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As long as I've been collecting (2nd) it seems Eldar has always had a following, I certainly would have expected more so than Tyranids who got several kits on the top 28.

Really? I've always been told Tyranids were the most popular Xeno faction.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As long as I've been collecting (2nd) it seems Eldar has always had a following, I certainly would have expected more so than Tyranids who got several kits on the top 28.

Really? I've always been told Tyranids were the most popular Xeno faction.

Well maybe, who knows, were sales numbers for Tyranids released in the Chapterhouse case? That's probably the best guess we'll get. Back in the CH case numbers, the Eldar codex sold 2x the amount as the Tau codex sold and a similar amount to Blood Angels and Space Wolves and siginificantly more than Dark Angels, but 'nids aren't on the list I have. I do remember there being a more comprehensive list somewhere but I don't know where it is now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As long as I've been collecting (2nd) it seems Eldar has always had a following, I certainly would have expected more so than Tyranids who got several kits on the top 28.

Really? I've always been told Tyranids were the most popular Xeno faction.

Well maybe, who knows, were sales numbers for Tyranids released in the Chapterhouse case? That's probably the best guess we'll get. Back in the CH case numbers, the Eldar codex sold 2x the amount as the Tau codex sold and a similar amount to Blood Angels and Space Wolves and siginificantly more than Dark Angels, but 'nids aren't on the list I have. I do remember there being a more comprehensive list somewhere but I don't know where it is now.

Oh, I'm just relying on hearsay anyway from different shop folk-and GW's most popular miniatures list.

I had forgotten about the CH list, but I don't recall anyone ever mentioning Tyranids in it. (Also, one could always claim they doctored the list to put them in a better position to turn the screws on Chapterhouse )

 Sinful Hero wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As long as I've been collecting (2nd) it seems Eldar has always had a following, I certainly would have expected more so than Tyranids who got several kits on the top 28.

Really? I've always been told Tyranids were the most popular Xeno faction.

Well maybe, who knows, were sales numbers for Tyranids released in the Chapterhouse case? That's probably the best guess we'll get. Back in the CH case numbers, the Eldar codex sold 2x the amount as the Tau codex sold and a similar amount to Blood Angels and Space Wolves and siginificantly more than Dark Angels, but 'nids aren't on the list I have. I do remember there being a more comprehensive list somewhere but I don't know where it is now.

Oh, I'm just relying on hearsay anyway from different shop folk-and GW's most popular miniatures list.

I had forgotten about the CH list, but I don't recall anyone ever mentioning Tyranids in it. (Also, one could always claim they doctored the list to put them in a better position to turn the screws on Chapterhouse )

As stupid as GW's lawyers were I'd hope they weren't stupid enough to lie on documents they are presenting in court Lying on a random "top 28" list that only a few nerds are going to care about isn't quite as serious