Where do summoned units belong?

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**SicSemperTyrannis**

The following scenarios came up in some of my latest games and I need some feedback.

Lets say I play KDK and use a blood host detachment, with a slaughtercult and a war engine as aux.

Scenario 1:
I summon a squad of bloodletters via Blood tithe points. Is it possible to say that they belong to the slaughtercult and benefit from the Boon of Khorne USR and therefore receive the 2nd blood tithe reward too? Or are summoned units outside of that formation/detachment?
We played that they were outside the slaughtercult so they do not get the 2nd reward. I´m fine with that just want to know what you guys think.

Scenario 2:
My Chaoslord (HQ slot in Slaughtercult and warlord) dies with an axe of ruin, or is upgraded to a Bloodthirster or a Demon Prince via blood tithe points, does the he count as still being the HQ selection in the slaughtercult and gets the 2nd blood tithe reward? The codex says he can keeps his warlord trait and Gear when he ascends so we though it´s basically the same unit and therefore he´s still occupying the HQ slot in the slaughtercult.

I couldn´t find anything in my codex or in the BRB, so if someone could point me into the right direction that would be awesome.

**Charistoph**

There is nothing in the individual summoning rules or the general summoning rule stating that they join any detachment at all. Conjuring rules are similar in that regard.

So, no Formation Special Rules or Command Benefits would affect them unless they specifically stated otherwise.

As for Scenario 2, the Daemon Prince keeps the Warlord Trait and Artefacts of Slaughter, but nothing else, including position in the detachment.

**nosferatu1001**

They belong to no detachment at all

**Kriswall**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They belong to no detachment at all

All models belong to a detachment/formation unless you're playing an Unbound list. Take a look in the rules section that discusses detachments/formations in the core rule book. My suggestion would be to consider them as belonging to the same detachment as the summoner. This seems the most reasonable choice.

**nosferatu1001**

Kriswall wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
They belong to no detachment at all

All models belong to a detachment/formation unless you're playing an Unbound list. Take a look in the rules section that discusses detachments/formations in the core rule book. My suggestion would be to consider them as belonging to the same detachment as the summoner. This seems the most reasonable choice.

Yes, that requirement that only pertains to building a list? It has no use within a game.

I suggest following the rules, which are that you have no permission to fount the as part of any detachment, and as the game has begun, there is no need to follow the list building rules

**Kriswall**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
They belong to no detachment at all

All models belong to a detachment/formation unless you're playing an Unbound list. Take a look in the rules section that discusses detachments/formations in the core rule book. My suggestion would be to consider them as belonging to the same detachment as the summoner. This seems the most reasonable choice.

Yes, that requirement that only pertains to building a list? It has no use within a game.

I suggest following the rules, which are that you have no permission to fount the as part of any detachment, and as the game has begun, there is no need to follow the list building rules

Do those rules specify that they only apply during the list building element of the game? I don't actually have my rule book on me, but I thought it was just a statement something like 'all units are organized into detachments or formations' or something like that. I can look later when I have my rulebook. If the rules don't specify that they only apply during list building, the assumption is that they always apply? Depends on the wording. I could easily be wrong.

**nosferatu1001**

The heading is "army selection methods".

It would be a leap to suggest rules concerning selecting an army have much to do with playing a game with said army

**Charistoph**

Kriswall wrote:
Do those rules specify that they only apply during the list building element of the game? I don't actually have my rule book on me, but I thought it was just a statement something like 'all units are organized into detachments or formations' or something like that. I can look later when I have my rulebook. If the rules don't specify that they only apply during list building, the assumption is that they always apply? Depends on the wording. I could easily be wrong.

They apply as much as they apply when the units take casualties after the game starts.

Unless you're suggesting that as soon as I lose my one unit of Tomb Blades, the Reclamation Legion Formation loses its Special Rules and identity as a Formation, which means I no longer have the Core Choice of my Decurion.

You do not become Unbound when your CAD loses its Troops or HQs after the game starts, so why would you become Unbound when non-Detachment units join your army after the game starts?

**Kriswall**

Charistoph wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
Do those rules specify that they only apply during the list building element of the game? I don't actually have my rule book on me, but I thought it was just a statement something like 'all units are organized into detachments or formations' or something like that. I can look later when I have my rulebook. If the rules don't specify that they only apply during list building, the assumption is that they always apply? Depends on the wording. I could easily be wrong.

They apply as much as they apply when the units take casualties after the game starts.

Unless you're suggesting that as soon as I lose my one unit of Tomb Blades, the Reclamation Legion Formation loses its Special Rules and identity as a Formation, which means I no longer have the Core Choice of my Decurion.

You do not become Unbound when your CAD loses its Troops or HQs after the game starts, so why would you become Unbound when non-Detachment units join your army after the game starts?

Not suggesting anything of the sort. I just don't have the wording in front of me. I have it in my head that the rules say something about all models in a Battle-forged army having to belong to a detachment or formation. It's possible I'm wrong. I'm assuming nobody is going to post the rules text, so I'll have to wait until I get home.

I have no idea why anyone would think an army becomes Unbound when troops start to die. I certainly don't. The question is more around whether a unit summoned by a Psyker from Detachment A will be considered a member of Detachment A or if they will be considered an "unbound element" of the army.

**GrafWattenburg**

If you could summon more units into a detachment, what would be the point in even having a 6 Troop slot limit in a CAD?

Would you really consider Summoned Daemons as having ObSec if summoned by Psykers in a CAD?

Call it a Summoned Detachment if you will as there is no official word for them, but I would definitely say that summoned units are NOT part of the Detachment they were summoned by. '

**blaktoof**

The summoned units do not go into any slots for a detachment, and are not the required units for a formation- so they do not become part of any detachment or formation when summoned.

**Kriswall**

GrafWattenburg wrote:
If you could summon more units into a detachment, what would be the point in even having a 6 Troop slot limit in a CAD?

Would you really consider Summoned Daemons as having ObSec if summoned by Psykers in a CAD?

Call it a Summoned Detachment if you will as there is no official word for them, but I would definitely say that summoned units are NOT part of the Detachment they were summoned by. '

I don't think it's a crazy idea to think a summoned unit of Bloodletters would be treated no differently than a unit of Bloodletters starting on the table in an army consisting of a single Combined Arms Detachment. Since the core rules give us no guidance, I could see the house rule going either way. My group plays that the summoned unit belongs to the detachment the summoner belongs to.

**GrafWattenburg**

Kriswall wrote:
GrafWattenburg wrote:
If you could summon more units into a detachment, what would be the point in even having a 6 Troop slot limit in a CAD?

Would you really consider Summoned Daemons as having ObSec if summoned by Psykers in a CAD?

Call it a Summoned Detachment if you will as there is no official word for them, but I would definitely say that summoned units are NOT part of the Detachment they were summoned by. '

I don't think it's a crazy idea to think a summoned unit of Bloodletters would be treated no differently than a unit of Bloodletters starting on the table in an army consisting of a single Combined Arms Detachment. Since the core rules give us no guidance, I could see the house rule going either way. My group plays that the summoned unit belongs to the detachment the summoner belongs to.

So if I ran an army consisting entirely of a Gorepack formation and used that to summon Bloodletters, would you give these Pref.Enemy: Psykers and Move Through Cover? What if I take a Baal Strike Force with a Librarian as my HQ, will you give me The Red Thirst (+1 Initiative on the charge) on a unit of Daemonettes or Plague Drones? Let us use the Baal Strike Force as an example of why I disagree with counting summoned units as part of the summoner's Detachment.

Right away under Restrictions: "All units in this Detachment must have the Blood Angels Faction (or be fortifications).". Here we are breaking a rule if we allowed units summoned by it's Psykers to count as part of the formation. Will you say that this restriction only works during the list-building stage? Or that a Librarian from this Detachment can't summon Daemons?

I don't have an oversight over all the detachments that can currently summon Daemons, but I am pretty sure you will end up breaking a whole ton of rules and restrictions if you count summoned units as part of the summoning psycher's formation.

**Charistoph**

Kriswall wrote:
I don't think it's a crazy idea to think a summoned unit of Bloodletters would be treated no differently than a unit of Bloodletters starting on the table in an army consisting of a single Combined Arms Detachment. Since the core rules give us no guidance, I could see the house rule going either way. My group plays that the summoned unit belongs to the detachment the summoner belongs to.

It's not crazy, it just has no base rules support.

One problem with is is that Summoning doesn't use an individual model as the initiator like Conjuring does. The army collects Tithe from units with a rule doing actions, I believe. The player then uses that Tithe to either Summon or provide buffs to certain units. For Summoning the Prince and 'Thirster, you do have a sacrifice you COULD count as being the iniator, but the Bloodletter Summoning doesn't have that.

**Kriswall**

I dunno. It would depend on the specific situation. That's what happens when the rules don't cover a specific situation. You evaluate the situation and make a house rule.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
I don't think it's a crazy idea to think a summoned unit of Bloodletters would be treated no differently than a unit of Bloodletters starting on the table in an army consisting of a single Combined Arms Detachment. Since the core rules give us no guidance, I could see the house rule going either way. My group plays that the summoned unit belongs to the detachment the summoner belongs to.

It's not crazy, it just has no base rules support.

One problem with is is that Summoning doesn't use an individual model as the initiator like Conjuring does. The army collects Tithe from units with a rule doing actions, I believe. The player then uses that Tithe to either Summon or provide buffs to certain units. For Summoning the Prince and 'Thirster, you do have a sacrifice you COULD count as being the iniator, but the Bloodletter Summoning doesn't have that.

I'm not super familiar with C:KDK, but you raise a solid point. I wasn't aware that you could perform a summoning without using a Psyker. I don't have that Codex and have never seen anyone play it.

**chaosmarauder**

If the HQ of the slaughtercult becomes a demon prince - maybe not supported RAW but definately RAI he is supposed to be the same guy so I'd let an opponent play it that he still gets the slaughtercult benefits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact I think you can choose a daemon prince as an HQ for the slaughtercult in the first place so it is not a stretch that he was once a lord himself.

**nosferatu1001**

The rules give ou no permission to include them in any detachment. And the rules give no permission of restriction that they must be in a detachment. Thus, they are not required to be in a detachment, and have no permission to be in one.

**KhorneontheCobb**

I would have to check my codex when I get home- but I am almost positive that the Bloodletters do not count as part of the Slaughtercult... The daemon Prince, I am not so sure about. I know he retains the warlord status and any artifacts. He is not summoned like the Bloodletters, but rather the Chaos Lord acsendes. The book is clear that they retain warlord status. Interesting question as to whether they get Slaughtercult bonus of a second Blood Tithe reward. They obviously would get the first reward though.