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A guy in this very thread made the incredibly astute point of "complaining is fine, but HOW you complain is important" and then a few lines later Red Corsair is flying off the handle. Calling what Reece and company did "idiotic" and accusing them of lying about play testing is absurd. You aren't "calling it like it is" you are being a dick. They DO play test (you can watch every tuesday at 7pm PDT on their stream btw.. and they play a lot more than that) and most of what you are bitching about was voted on by the community.

So annoying watching people talk crap about something they actually appreciate on almost every level. Without the ITC we wouldn't have nearly as robust of a competitive community.. if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself. Not liking everything they do is fine but don't be a dick about it.

INControl brings up some very good points and I'll give an example. Years ago 40K was THE game in our area with no other game even close. Now it is an afterthought , as the local TO I've tried to help but we have a lonnngg way to go. But yet Reecius runs the LVO and gets a couple hundred people to attend. So obviously he is doing something right. In our area 40K is sooo down but yet he runs an event that people incur considerate expense just to attend. So something is working! We are switching to ITC and I'm really looking forward to it. I know it won't fix all the ills but it's major steps in the right direction. After 4 play tests with seasoned tournament players I'm pretty impressed so far.
From some personal experience , I've been to TOGIT in NJ for tournaments 4 times. The store is loaded with great players , super nice guys and a great environment. 3 times I was knocked out at the top table to win the tournament. In those games barring exceptional luck my list precluded me from having a good chance to win. Now mind you they were all top players and great guys . But what I like about ITC is it provides enough variety to offset the latest meta while offsetting some of the most broken elements of the game.
About people bashing ITC , this is going to get me in trouble..... I've played in 4 FOW Nat's events , been undefeated , top 10 , etc. etc. I have never had a sportsmanship issue or problem with the opponents demeanor or play style. I've stopped traveling for 40K events because most of the players have the tactics and stratagems of a 10 year old and are more than happy winning with abusive and broken game mechanics in lieu of strategy. Not to mention horrendous sportsmanship. I'm fortunate that in our area and at our events we don't have those kind of players. So for Geoff talking about people's dispositions and inappropriate remarks , unfortunately it is too often par for the course at 40K events.
Keep up the good work guys at Frontline! I enjoy watching the bat reps and my fat mats . INControl where's the Hive Fleet? What's this mechanicus stuff!

Haldir wrote:
INControl brings up some very good points and I'll give an example. Years ago 40K was THE game in our area with no other game even close. Now it is an afterthought , as the local TO I've tried to help but we have a lonnngg way to go. But yet Reecius runs the LVO and gets a couple hundred people to attend. So obviously he is doing something right. In our area 40K is sooo down but yet he runs an event that people incur considerate expense just to attend. So something is working! We are switching to ITC and I'm really looking forward to it. I know it won't fix all the ills but it's major steps in the right direction. After 4 play tests with seasoned tournament players I'm pretty impressed so far.
From some personal experience , I've been to TOGIT in NJ for tournaments 4 times. The store is loaded with great players , super nice guys and a great environment. 3 times I was knocked out at the top table to win the tournament. In those games barring exceptional luck my list precluded me from having a good chance to win. Now mind you they were all top players and great guys . But what I like about ITC is it provides enough variety to offset the latest meta while offsetting some of the most broken elements of the game.
About people bashing ITC , this is going to get me in trouble..... I've played in 4 FOW Nat's events , been undefeated , top 10 , etc. etc. I have never had a sportsmanship issue or problem with the opponents demeanor or play style. I've stopped traveling for 40K events because most of the players have the tactics and stratagems of a 10 year old and are more than happy winning with abusive and broken game mechanics in lieu of strategy. Not to mention horrendous sportsmanship. I'm fortunate that in our area and at our events we don't have those kind of players. So for Geoff talking about people's dispositions and inappropriate remarks , unfortunately it is too often par for the course at 40K events.
Keep up the good work guys at Frontline! I enjoy watching the bat reps and my fat mats . INControl where's the Hive Fleet? What's this mechanicus stuff!

Well said dude. Hive Fleet Goliath is still lurking out there Will make some appearances but for now I am enjoying the forces of the Omnissiah.

iNcontroL wrote:
A guy in this very thread made the incredibly astute point of "complaining is fine, but HOW you complain is important" and then a few lines later Red Corsair is flying off the handle. Calling what Reece and company did "idiotic" and accusing them of lying about play testing is absurd. You aren't "calling it like it is" you are being a dick. They DO play test (you can watch every tuesday at 7pm PDT on their stream btw.. and they play a lot more than that) and most of what you are bitching about was voted on by the community.

So annoying watching people talk crap about something they actually appreciate on almost every level. Without the ITC we wouldn't have nearly as robust of a competitive community.. if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself. Not liking everything they do is fine but don't be a dick about it.

Man, so many people also don't consider how awesome the ITC rules are even in a non competitive setting. I know everyone at Frontline is super into the fluff and wants that to translate onto the table correctly - and honestly they do such a better job at it than GW. Even at home with my super derpy, fluff based lists you can bet I'll be using ITC as it's literally just a better game in general.

I was never really into competitive 40k, but it's apparent that the guys over at Frontline (yourself included Geoff) are really, really into 40k and aren't just a bunch of "WAAC powergamers". And that's awesome.

iNcontroL wrote:
A guy in this very thread made the incredibly astute point of "complaining is fine, but HOW you complain is important"

Hi, name's Tinkrr, it can be pronounced as either Tinker or Tinkerer, based on how you like your "r"s. Some say Tink, but they're wrong.


But yea, I'm a huge fan of the ITC for all it does, but if I feel there's something I disagree with, I'll claim why I disagree with it or how it could be made better, but I wouldn't throw insults out there and such :/.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Have you tried out the new super cheap Stompa (is that the right word?) that they updated in the latest vote? How is it if you have?

Bwahahaha!!! See me at the LVO. I'll be the ove confident ork player flipping a table on game 1 day 1. Really though. I think reasonable. Not good with melee vs most any big thing with the suffix "knight" though. Stay away from those meks. Dems brutal AND cunnin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iNcontroL wrote:
A guy in this very thread made the incredibly astute point of "complaining is fine, but HOW you complain is important" and then a few lines later Red Corsair is flying off the handle. Calling what Reece and company did "idiotic" and accusing them of lying about play testing is absurd. You aren't "calling it like it is" you are being a dick. They DO play test (you can watch every tuesday at 7pm PDT on their stream btw.. and they play a lot more than that) and most of what you are bitching about was voted on by the community.

So annoying watching people talk crap about something they actually appreciate on almost every level. Without the ITC we wouldn't have nearly as robust of a competitive community.. if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself. Not liking everything they do is fine but don't be a dick about it.

Simmer down there buddy. Dont feed them.

 Orock wrote:
Not a farce but clear favoratism. Where are the necron marine and eldar nerfs?

This is when I, for the third time, point out that pretty much no one allows ICs to assault from deep strike with a Skyhammer Assault Squad, and this'll be the third time someone simply brushes me off with "that's not allowed RAW, so not the same thing!" despite the massive thread we had in YMDC. There's plenty of nerfs to other factions as well, your persecution complex just doesn't want that to be so.

nevermind, comment makes less sense hear than in another thread.

 doktor_g wrote:

Bwahahaha!!! See me at the LVO. I'll be the ove confident ork player flipping a table on game 1 day 1. Really though. I think reasonable. Not good with melee vs most any big thing with the suffix "knight" though. Stay away from those meks. Dems brutal AND cunnin.

While I'm rooting for the Tau as a whole, I now want you to win the whole thing because Stompas are cunningly brutal D:

I can't wait to see some stompas in the tournament circuit again.

BTW, if people properly read the ITC format rules, they would know something that is kind of a big deal in the context of crying about how your favorite rule isn't in the ITC format:

You DON'T have to use the ENTIRE ITC format to be an ITC event. True, it would be more than a little misleading to use none of it (though it's technically possible) but the whole mission that Reece and co are on is to develop a tournament circuit for 40k, since they know that this is a big deal to the US player base. But guess what! If you don't like how the CF vote went down, just PLAY IT DIFFERENTLY. You could even host an ITC event at your local store where CF works the way you want it to (subject to your TO's approval of course).

To have an ITC event, you basically just need to email Reece and be like "Yo Reece we're having a tournament and we'll give you the results when it's done" and he'll say "Cool man! Can't wait to hear how well the Orks did!", to which you'll say "Yeah I'm rooting for them too, even though I play Mont'Ka". You don't need to use their rules interpretations, their missions or their scoring system.

Again, though, if there are differences from the standard ITC format, you should probably tell your player base/people who may travel to attend the event, but the point is that you can forge your own freaking narrative. Have the tournament how you want. Raging at the ITC for making a standard based on the popular vote is literally the epitome of pointless.

Where can I find the most up to date ITC faq, as the ones I found still use the old dark angel Dex etc.

Slightly off topic but still ITC related. After seeing the big Mek stompa in action I feel 400 pts (500pts really since the only weapon worth anything is the belly gun) is balanced. What you think should be fixed either by gw in next codex or ITC is multiple Mek repair rolls stacking. You would think grot riggers and a big Mek with the fixer upper or a pair of repair rubts is more then enough to be balanced. As designed a big Mek stompa can be nearly unkillable with 12hull and d6 power fields and a big Mek with KFF or mff with several cheap meks inside. Unless of course you get a lucky str d inside the field. It may not be a big issue since ITC is still an objective game and the big Mek stompa is limited offensively since it's hardly accurate.

I am hopeful to see more varied Ork lists with it since the stompa draws so much anti armour away from the mass low AV trukk spam Orks have and 6in fearless bubble.

gungo wrote:
Slightly off topic but still ITC related. After seeing the big Mek stompa in action I feel 400 pts (500pts really since the only weapon worth anything is the belly gun) is balanced. What you think should be fixed either by gw in next codex or ITC is multiple Mek repair rolls stacking. You would think grot riggers and a big Mek with the fixer upper or a pair of repair rubts is more then enough to be balanced. As designed a big Mek stompa can be nearly unkillable with 12hull and d6 power fields and a big Mek with KFF or mff with several cheap meks inside. Unless of course you get a lucky str d inside the field. It may not be a big issue since ITC is still an objective game and the big Mek stompa is limited offensively since it's hardly accurate.

I am hopeful to see more varied Ork lists with it since the stompa draws so much anti armour away from the mass low AV trukk spam Orks have and 6in fearless bubble.

Yes and no. A smart player who can't deal with both will likely ignore the stompa entirely, dedicating all of the anti-tank at things like the trukk spam. But it is a dice game and it's easy to convince yourself "oh I can totally take down that stompa" regardless of whether the math supports it or not, so you will absolutely experience exactly what you are describing. Just not a tactic to count on against people who've faced it before.

You can't always just ignore a stompa.

 Formosa wrote:
Where can I find the most up to date ITC faq, as the ones I found still use the old dark angel Dex etc.

This is a very good question - the FAQ hasn't been updated in months. My guess is that it won't be updated until after LVO, however.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You can't always just ignore a stompa.

Definitely not. But you can often mitigate what you feed to it, maybe tarpit it for a bit...it's not all THAT easy for it to make its points back. That being said, it does become substantially easier to do so when it's points are like.....half haha.

What seems to be the problem with the stompa is yes you can ignore it and kill off all the supporting units the first and second turn however each turn you do this your anti armour dwindles down and it becomes increasingly harder to burn the stompa down while it is able to regenerate hull points so quickly.

It's offense capability isn't very accurate at bs2 (with no access to twin link or increase in bs) however it is potentially devastating if the Ork player gets lucky with a bunch of 5 or 6 to hit rolls and direct hits with its belly gun.

Either way I think it will help add diversity to Ork lists beyond zhardsnark bike spam and occasional green tide which isn't all that anymore. However of Mek repairs no longer stack which likely won't happen it becomes a lot more manageable.

Yeah it is just another pain in the butt for us to have to deal with now .

Are many of the decisions in the ITC format the result of a player vote? If so, how is this not mob rule?

In the context of 40k, the Imperium of Man mega-faction is basically the mob. It's unsurprising that Xenos rules perceived as too strong will be voted down every time and that IoM rules will be upheld.

If I were an IoM player, this would be great news. Instead I'm a Xenos player... Tau Empire specifically. My new decurion benefit was nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist. Marker lights were nerfed in a very unfluffy way. I wouldn't want to bring my Tau to an ITC event because I wouldn't be playing my army. I'd be playing somebody else's watered down version of what my army really is.

 Kriswall wrote:
Are many of the decisions in the ITC format the result of a player vote? If so, how is this not mob rule?

In the context of 40k, the Imperium of Man mega-faction is basically the mob. It's unsurprising that Xenos rules perceived as too strong will be voted down every time and that IoM rules will be upheld.

If I were an IoM player, this would be great news. Instead I'm a Xenos player... Tau Empire specifically. My new decurion benefit was nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist. Marker lights were nerfed in a very unfluffy way. I wouldn't want to bring my Tau to an ITC event because I wouldn't be playing my army. I'd be playing somebody else's watered down version of what my army really is.

There's a difference between mob rule and democracy.

Also, hi, nice to meet you fellow Tau player, and as a Tau player I was someone who would have voted for the "nerfing" of CFP, because as written it was too strong in my opinion. I'd still bring Tau without a doubt to any event, especially with the insane new toys and formations.

Though really, if you want a clear example of how it's not mob rule, but rather democracy, the Orks are one of the least represented factions in the ITC, but in that same vote they got a huge buff in the extra cheap Stompa, which shows that people aren't just voting in self interest, but rather for what they believe is best for the game, as I would be doing when voting against my best self interest in terms of CFP. More so, as Reece pointed out, so far the ITC and the LVO in recent history haven't been won by IOM players.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Are many of the decisions in the ITC format the result of a player vote? If so, how is this not mob rule?

In the context of 40k, the Imperium of Man mega-faction is basically the mob. It's unsurprising that Xenos rules perceived as too strong will be voted down every time and that IoM rules will be upheld.

If I were an IoM player, this would be great news. Instead I'm a Xenos player... Tau Empire specifically. My new decurion benefit was nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist. Marker lights were nerfed in a very unfluffy way. I wouldn't want to bring my Tau to an ITC event because I wouldn't be playing my army. I'd be playing somebody else's watered down version of what my army really is.

There's a difference between mob rule and democracy.

Also, hi, nice to meet you fellow Tau player, and as a Tau player I was someone who would have voted for the "nerfing" of CFP, because as written it was too strong in my opinion. I'd still bring Tau without a doubt to any event, especially with the insane new toys and formations.

Though really, if you want a clear example of how it's not mob rule, but rather democracy, the Orks are one of the least represented factions in the ITC, but in that same vote they got a huge buff in the extra cheap Stompa, which shows that people aren't just voting in self interest, but rather for what they believe is best for the game, as I would be doing when voting against my best self interest in terms of CFP. More so, as Reece pointed out, so far the ITC and the LVO in recent history haven't been won by IOM players.

Exactly. The Tau vote was pretty close, as was the motion to reduce Windrider Jetbikes to one heavy weapon per three models. If this were in fact mob rule, the margins on the votes would not even be close.

Also, in what universe is the ability to gain +1 BS and share the benefits of Markerlights bad? I'd like to take whatever drugs you've consumed, because I'm not nearly inebriated enough to take that sentiment at face value.