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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

I just don't want celestians to become either generalist super unit which can deal with anything you throw at them, or dominions with artificer armour.

as for my take on celestians, the above argument I had with Melissa already under lines my suggestion. basically celestians should be of a more tactical mindset, able to deal with various threats as they arise on the battle field. you can give them special ammunition to represent this as well as artificer armour to help show how they are the elite of the sisterhood, wearing only the finest armour they have available. if you want them to be better at the assault game you don't do it by giving them all power weapons, instead you make them better at acting defensivly and absorbing the charge. you can achieve this by allowing them to take sarissas which grant an extra close combat weapon and the counter attack special rule for around 2 points, hell why you are at it why not let the superior take a defensive grenade, say it is a relic found on the same STC fragments that the immolator and exorcist came from.

 Vandire651 wrote:
basically celestians should be of a more tactical mindset, able to deal with various threats as they arise on the battle field.

So rather than being generalists, they are instead tactically minded and able to deal with various threat as they arise on the battlefield…

Also why do you want them to be defensive?


I think sarissa needs new models to work. Here, with the current model… well, it does not even exist, and given that most weapons have literally no special rules, they need to look impressive to give a special bonus! Frankly, if it is going to be defensive, I'd rather have them use mini-flamethrower under the bolter that can only shoot as overwatch and do one hit.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
basically celestians should be of a more tactical mindset, able to deal with various threats as they arise on the battle field.

So rather than being generalists, they are instead tactically minded and able to deal with various threat as they arise on the battlefield…

Also why do you want them to be defensive?


I think sarissa needs new models to work. Here, with the current model… well, it does not even exist, and given that most weapons have literally no special rules, they need to look impressive to give a special bonus! Frankly, if it is going to be defensive, I'd rather have them use mini-flamethrower under the bolter that can only shoot as overwatch and do one hit.

to quote myself from the earlier conversation with Melissa on the previous page

 Vandire651 wrote:

the point is that I at least don't see the sisters as a generalist army like the space marines, able to both charge into melee or shoot from range. I see them more like storm troopers with better equipment and increased zeal, you don't want to engage in melee, you want to draw out the shooting phase and use assault defensibly.

the sarrissa is a chain bayonet attached to the bottom of the bolter, the counter attack rule is meant to represent the sisters bracing into a bayonet line to absorb the charge.

I know what a sarissa is. The thing is, it is definitely less efficient than a plain chainsword, so why give it better rules?

And I would like my Sisters to have some melee unit. I guess that is the real reason why you are trying to bash my suggestions. Not crunch reasons, just that you dislike it from a flavor point of view. Then please do not disguise this as crunch.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I know what a sarissa is. The thing is, it is definitely less efficient than a plain chainsword, so why give it better rules?

And I would like my Sisters to have some melee unit. I guess that is the real reason why you are trying to bash my suggestions. Not crunch reasons, just that you dislike it from a flavor point of view. Then please do not disguise this as crunch.

it's more of a crunch issue regarding the power swords then a flavor issue. power swords have always been the mark of a dedicated assault unit or character, giving them to a mixed unit just feels out of place to me. making celestians a dedicated assault unit doesn't work due to their stat line with having 3S, 3T and 3I. you could theoretically increase their stat line, especially with regard to initiative, but at that point their stat line no longer represents relatively normal human beings, they are space marine stats. that said I won't lie and claim it is purely crunch, I would prefer the sisters of battle remain a shooty army and not a choopy one, but that is just my opinion.

if you do want an assault unit, I would recommend focusing on the seraphim rather then the celestians, the seraphim have a jump pack to grant them hammer of wrath and they also have two close combat weapons in the form of bolt pistols and the hit and run rule. all that is needed to make them an acceptable assault unit is upgrading their initiative to a 4 and allowing them to exchange their attacks in order to make two attacks using the profile of their two pistols. this will mean that their basic attack would hit at strength 4 and inferno pistols at a monsterous S8 AP 1. regarding flame pistols, i would either make it so they do D3 attacks or just the one

it also fits more in line with the fluff due to both the seraphim and the celestians being veterns, the difference being that the seraphim are the exceedingly faithful veterans who train in the use of duel bolt pistols in close combat, usually in the form of point blank head-shoots, while the celestians are the more tactically minded and pragmatic veterans, hence why the orders cannoness and palatines are drawn from the celestians

Above discussion demonstrates why they won't necessarily do it, and why they haven't done it. For alot of effort you would be alienating at least half the fanboi sisters players with every decision. So they cba. Which is understandable

 ntdars wrote:
After seeing how successful the AdMech releases were, I can only imagine that any Sisters of Battle casts would sell insanely well. What do you think GW's reasoning is behind them not printing a whole army update (Dark Eldar is another great example)

People are going to jump down my throat here for this, but I have always noticed GW really has always had something against female miniatures, aside from DE, CWE and SOB. They really don't have any other 40K female models, In other armies to talk about or worth mentioning. I honestly think the are sexist.

thanks to other vendors there are plenty of female IG/AM around

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

That's exactly what he's doing. He refuses to imagine a points cost other than his own, because otherwise his entire argument would fall apart liek the house of rotting cards that it is.

Hell, we could always just give Celestians Sarissas for free. Make them "reroll to-wound rolls when charging or when charged". Boom, it's useful both in a shooting context and in a melee context, especially when combined with WS4/I4. Celestians don't need to be just some lame-ass short-ranged snipers that Vandire's trying to make them be.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

That's exactly what he's doing. He refuses to imagine a points cost other than his own, because otherwise his entire argument would fall apart liek the house of rotting cards that it is.

Hell, we could always just give Celestians Sarissas for free. Make them "reroll to-wound rolls when charging or when charged". Boom, it's useful both in a shooting context and in a melee context, especially when combined with WS4/I4. Celestians don't need to be just some lame-ass short-ranged snipers that Vandire's trying to make them be.

I have nothing against the idea of giving celestians sarissas for free, the problem I am having is giving the all power weapons and master crafted special weapons.

I actually think that the sarissas are a good idea and while re roll to wound would be bit redundant due to priests rolling for war hymns it is better then nothing. While your at it why not let the basic sister squad take them as well. Of course the design should be changed slightly to justify why sisters get spiecal rules like reroll to wound while all the legion list gets is an extra attack. I also wouldn't mind letting celestians start with sarissas for free.

I admit that precision shot is perhaps not the best rule to apply to celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent their tactical mindset at the time and didn't think it through properly) if you can find a better rule for them I am open to suggestions.

Vandire is right, this is GW whe're talking about here and they price almost all wargear statically.

There is one unit in the game that can upgrade their melee weapons at a reduced cost to every other unit in the game, and that unit is Vanguard Veterans. Even then they only get a 5 point discount.
There is no way in heaven or hell that GW will change this just for Sisters. Now, if they made Celestians a dual unit kit with some new melee-focused unit that has power weapons by default you'd most likely get a more affordable melee unit points-wise.
SM Honour Guard get cheap power weapons because they start with them as base wargear. If they started with chainswords and had to upgrade like Vanguard Veterans they'd cost way more. Such is GWs stupid points system...

 Vandire651 wrote:
the problem I am having is giving the all power weapons and master crafted special weapons.

I never suggested either of those. I suggested giving htem access to power weapons, but never said ALL of them should get them. And I never mentioned master-crafted things, that was someone else. what I had in mind was more along the lines of "up to two Celestians can purchase a power weapon", alongside "up to two Celestians can purchase a special or heavy weapon", letting the player determine how they want to build the squad's equipment but not letting them go overboard-- at most, two Celestians with special weapons and three with power weapons, including the Superior.

 Vandire651 wrote:
priests rolling for war hymns

Sisters shouldn't have to take priests in order to function properly.

 Vandire651 wrote:
While your at it why not let the basic sister squad take them as well.

I wouldn't object, but my main focus is making Celestians good again. Battle Sisters Squads are actually already in a fairly decent place and I don't want to touch them too much except in terms of what they can do in Acts of Faith.

 Vandire651 wrote:
Of course the design should be changed slightly to justify why sisters get spiecal rules like reroll to wound while all the legion list gets is an extra attack. I also wouldn't mind letting celestians start with sarissas for free.

Why would it matter what the Legion list gets or doesn't 'get? They're not Sisters. The internal balance of the Sisters codex requires things that don't make any sense to do in a Legion list, and vice versa.

 Vandire651 wrote:
I admit that precision shot is perhaps not the best rule to apply to celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent their tactical mindset at the time and didn't think it through properly) if you can find a better rule for them I am open to suggestions.

I do.

Give up on trying to make them uberspecialawesome ranged attackers. Make them good ranged attackers who also are a decent melee unit, able to destroy ranged attackers and at least tie up or countercharge melee attackers. That's far more valuable to Sisters. The best we have for melee is repentia, and they're a berserker unit that's kind of fragile but hits hard if it doesn't get wiped out first. Celestians could easily be far more of a tarpit than them, especially with acts of faith. In fact, Celestians in 3rd edition were one of the best tarpit units in the game, because of the 2+ invulnerable save act of faith and their WS4/I4. This in spite of them being only T3. True, the game has changed since then, but the thing is, I'm not saying Celestians need to dominate the battlefield as a melee unit. They just need to open up more tactical options than just "this unit shoots hard, and this one shoots REALLY hard".

We're Imperials, not Tau.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
the problem I am having is giving the all power weapons and master crafted special weapons.

I never suggested either of those. I suggested giving htem access to power weapons, but never said ALL of them should get them. And I never mentioned master-crafted things, that was someone else. what I had in mind was more along the lines of "up to two Celestians can purchase a power weapon", alongside "up to two Celestians can purchase a special or heavy weapon", letting the player determine how they want to build the squad's equipment but not letting them go overboard-- at most, two Celestians with special weapons and three with power weapons, including the Superior.

 Vandire651 wrote:
priests rolling for war hymns

Sisters shouldn't have to take priests in order to function properly.

 Vandire651 wrote:
While your at it why not let the basic sister squad take them as well.

I wouldn't object, but my main focus is making Celestians good again. Battle Sisters Squads are actually already in a fairly decent place and I don't want to touch them too much except in terms of what they can do in Acts of Faith.

 Vandire651 wrote:
Of course the design should be changed slightly to justify why sisters get spiecal rules like reroll to wound while all the legion list gets is an extra attack. I also wouldn't mind letting celestians start with sarissas for free.

Why would it matter what the Legion list gets or doesn't 'get? They're not Sisters. The internal balance of the Sisters codex requires things that don't make any sense to do in a Legion list, and vice versa.

 Vandire651 wrote:
I admit that precision shot is perhaps not the best rule to apply to celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent their tactical mindset at the time and didn't think it through properly) if you can find a better rule for them I am open to suggestions.

I do.

Give up on trying to make them uberspecialawesome ranged attackers. Make them good ranged attackers who also are a decent melee unit, able to destroy ranged attackers and at least tie up or countercharge melee attackers. That's far more valuable to Sisters. The best we have for melee is repentia, and they're a berserker unit that's kind of fragile but hits hard if it doesn't get wiped out first. Celestians could easily be far more of a tarpit than them, especially with acts of faith. In fact, Celestians in 3rd edition were one of the best tarpit units in the game, because of the 2+ invulnerable save act of faith and their WS4/I4. This in spite of them being only T3. True, the game has changed since then, but the thing is, I'm not saying Celestians need to dominate the battlefield as a melee unit. They just need to open up more tactical options than just "this unit shoots hard, and this one shoots REALLY hard".

I wouldn't mind letting celestian squads take two power weapons to increase their tactical flexibility, I was talking earlier regarding hybrids idea, not yours. Also it seems you didn't bother reading the response I gave at the end of our previous discussion

 Vandire651 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

From earlier posts about making celestians dedicated assault units and giving them power swords I made assumptions about your goal regarding celestions, reading back I seems like you are just trying to give them a greater degree of flexibility by letting them take better close combat weapons and upgrading their weapon skill and initiative. For jumping the gun, I apologize.

I would still preach however that celestians should focus on tactical flexibility with a focus on shooting and that if you want to make them good at assault then it should be done by making them better at acting defensibly and absorbing a charge, instead of just giving them all power weapons, artificer armour and master crafted special weapons and calling it a day like hybrid is talking about(if I've got this wrong hybrid, I apologize)

Sorry for missing a huge chunk of this convo but I'll try and clarify my stance here a bit.

First of all I have no problems with celestians being an assault unit, my concerns were only that unless they got significant changes beyond wargear they wouldn't be able to do it effectively and that compared to the blessed ammunition idea the melee variant seemed boring to me, that was my opinion. Adding a new assault transport (and not a land raider because those are way too expensive and too much of an investment for a passable melee unit) had not been mentioned yet and so it was not something a had considered. If they had access to jump packs or a viable assault transport then that solves the delivery method problem. They need something that makes up for S3 T3, striking scorpions come base at S4 thanks to their weapons and they have a great number of attacks including one that auto-wounds anything on a 4+ at I10. Howling banshees deny overwatch and come base with dual power swords for a good bargain and they have great mobility for a foot slogging unit.

I mentioned the points cost for the clestians loadout for melee and that concern was from my opinion that GW would not likely put a fair point cost on them. There is a breaking point where the unit would be worth taking for their points but I don't know what that is.

Matt Kingsley hit the nail on the head concerning wargear though. Giving the squad tons of options for wargear such as melta guns or flamers and such would get very expensive very fast. GW prices these weapons statically, they cost the same for anyone to take, whereas if a weapons is part of your basic loadout they tend to be cheaper. If clestians are to be a generalist melee/ranged unit then I think they would be best served having a static loadout with artificer armor, power weapon and combi-weapon or something. Maybe a special bolter? Oh and a bolt pistol for +1 A to offset for S3. Then they could be fairly costed as a unit and PPM and since you're not tacking on weapon options that cost 1/2 the points of the model they are equipped to the cost of the unti can be equal to it's effectiveness (theoretically speaking). they'd still need a delivery method or boost to mobility somehow.

I agree with Vandire though on a few points, one of which I'll mention here. Generalist run into a problem against focus units. In this case our generalist Celestians wouldn't be able to take on a dedicated melee unit of equal points cost in CC and likely wouldn't be able to shoot them off the table sufficiently to save their butts if they get assaulted. Likewise they don't have the ranged firepower to shoot against dedicated ranged units and don't have the built in mobility to get to those units to hurt them in melee (or by the time they get there so many of them are shot to death that there isn't enough o win in assault). Could they be given the special rules and equipment to do both effectively and be worth their points? Absolutely, but this is a precarious balancing act and I'm not sure if GW is up to task on this.

Another issue I have with the melee loadout with ranged weapon options is that it would make sense to give them all the same weapon to focus a target, all flamers or all meltas. Truth be told I find this boring because we already have dominions that we use in this manner, they just lack the melee option. I say if we make celestians a melee unit then that should be what they're good at and should be focused on it, if we make them a ranged unit then give them fun ranged weapons rules that distinguish them from dominions, retributors and BSS.

At the end of the day I suppose I don't care what GW does to celestians as long as they:
A) Make them a unique unit from other units in the codex
B) Make them fun to use
C) Make them effective at what they should be doing so they are a desirable addition to the codex.

melee or shooting or generalist as long as they tick those three boxes I'll be happy. I feel a good example of this is perhaps all the different aspect warriors in the CWE codex. They fill a role unique to themselves, do it effectively and each unit has one rule for the unit that is unique and one rule for the exarch that is unique. I find this to be a good example of codex writing (balance aside for the sake of this convo, note I'm not talking about jetbikes or wraithknights, just the aspect warriors).

 Vandire651 wrote:
making celestians a dedicated assault unit doesn't work due to their stat line with having 3S, 3T and 3I. you could theoretically increase their stat line, especially with regard to initiative, but at that point their stat line no longer represents relatively normal human beings, they are space marine stats.

There are many ways around this using special rules and special wargear…

 Vandire651 wrote:
that said I won't lie and claim it is purely crunch, I would prefer the sisters of battle remain a shooty army and not a choopy one, but that is just my opinion.

While I would rather the focus of the army stays on shooting, I would not mind having a few melee units.

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you do want an assault unit, I would recommend focusing on the seraphim rather then the celestians

Well, the Seraphim already have a strong identity that works pretty well (and that I really, really find badass). It already sets them apart both from other Sisters, and from their marines equivalent. Turning them into a melee unit would make them loose flavor and seem like a copy-paste of assault marines.
Celestians, though, for the moment do not have a strong identity that sets them apart…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Vandire is right, this is GW whe're talking about here and they price almost all wargear statically.

There is one unit in the game that can upgrade their melee weapons at a reduced cost to every other unit in the game, and that unit is Vanguard Veterans. Even then they only get a 5 point discount.

So, you are saying they should add the power weapon right in the profile, like they do with DCA. I would be okay with this.

If they had access to jump packs or a viable assault transport then that solves the delivery method problem

Dominica-Pattern Drop Pod

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you do want an assault unit, I would recommend focusing on the seraphim rather then the celestians

Well, the Seraphim already have a strong identity that works pretty well (and that I really, really find badass). It already sets them apart both from other Sisters, and from their marines equivalent. Turning them into a melee unit would make them loose flavor and seem like a copy-paste of assault marines.
Celestians, though, for the moment do not have a strong identity that sets them apart…

So much this. Seraphim are Seraphim, they are dual pistol wielding jump packers who are more divinely blessed and know gun fu. They're actually completely unique in this regard, in 40k at least (Star Craft's Reapers eventually adopted the same idea).

Celestians, on the other hand, started out as "Seraphim with bolters instead of jump packs and bolt pistols", then turned into "Better Battle Sisters", then wobbled around "Assaulty Battle Sisters" and are now "Expensive Battle Sisters who can pretend to be slightly gakker Assault Marines". They don't have an identity and that's why in every edition they have sucked.

Maybe allowing Seraphim to shoot in close combat instead of making melee attacks would be an improvement?

Yes and no. It's an improvement in the sense “it makes them most powerful”. In term of flavor, it does not change their role. Fly around some unit, shoot at it, eventually charge it depending on how much hurt it can put on you and how likely you are to damage it, else be charged, then hit and run away to start shooting at something else.

 Vandire651 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

I would still preach however that celestians should focus on tactical flexibility with a focus on shooting and that if you want to make them good at assault then it should be done by making them better at acting defensibly and absorbing a charge, instead of just giving them all power weapons, artificer armour and master crafted special weapons and calling it a day like hybrid is talking about(if I've got this wrong hybrid, I apologize)

The thing is, my idea makes them better defensively, too. So I honestly didn't see a reason to include a response to this bit. For example, sarissas giving to-wound rerolls on the charge-- or when receiving one. Compounding what I have suggested, they will have two attacks per model at WS4/I4, up to three models with power weapons (including the superior), overwatch with up to two special weapons, to-wound rerolls on their melee attacks for all members that don't have a power weapon, and all of this with the addition of acts of faith, letting htem get other bonuses such as invulnerable saves, or even higher initiative, or higher strength, depending on what is done with AoFs. This is not a broken unit. But it's not a bad unit, either.