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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And you could just wait where you could stop them from getting to your family, without getting into conflict.

They are not trying to get to your family. They are trying to get to your expensive stuff without coming into contact with anyone. This means they're going after electronics and other easy to sell valuables in common spaces. A burglar wants to get in and out quickly with as much loot as he can carry.

Even if you attempt to ambush him there is a non-trivial chance something will go wrong and it will turn into a conflict. The possible results of chains of events that include "Attempt to ambush the intruder" have more that end badly for the safety of the people in the house than the possible chains of events where the only response is "Avoid contact with the intruder entirely". If some dude is in your house the chances of him being that fat guy from the start of Sev7n is so small as to be discounted entirely. The chances of him being "Michael, unemployed alcoholic behind on his rent." is pretty high.

EDIT:
Which isn't to say I think it's wrong or bad to confront people intruding your home and stealing your stuff. You have the right to defend property and doing so is not a bad thing. However there really is no reason to indulge the fantasy that doing so is somehow keeping the inhabitants of the home from bodily harm. It's inviting it, relative to other responses.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And you could just wait where you could stop them from getting to your family, without getting into conflict.

There you go. While calling 911 and announcing loudly that you are armed, you have called the police, and you are in fear of your life (have 911 on speaker when you do so). *




*Then you push the button that says "Don't push this button!" which opens The Gate to Wienerheim. After a while (cause wieners are sprinters) the Wienerhorn will sound, and Wienerrock will begin ! Long Live the (ankle)Biters!


To chongora what if its during the day and suddenly a burglar is in the room with you, both of you being surprised?
What if its not you in the room. What if its your daughter?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And you could just wait where you could stop them from getting to your family, without getting into conflict.

There you go. While calling 911 and announcing loudly that you are armed, you have called the police, and you are in fear of your life (have 911 on speaker when you do so)

Bingo.

Unfortunately (for any potential burglars) , it is impossible for me to determine his intent and verify he means no harm to my family or I.

Too many cases around where folks break in to steal stuff AND decide to feth up the poor resident for me to want to give any one who has broken in the benefit of the doubt.

My reality (fortunately) is that my property is hard to access, and the dogs will scare most idiots away.

 Alex C wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And you could just wait where you could stop them from getting to your family, without getting into conflict.

There you go. While calling 911 and announcing loudly that you are armed, you have called the police, and you are in fear of your life (have 911 on speaker when you do so)

Bingo.

Remember, when saying you are in fear of your life Don't
*laugh like a possessed preteen Japanese girl.
*begin or end it with "Yip E Kay YEY Muther er!"

 Frazzled wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And you could just wait where you could stop them from getting to your family, without getting into conflict.

There you go. While calling 911 and announcing loudly that you are armed, you have called the police, and you are in fear of your life (have 911 on speaker when you do so). *




*Then you push the button that says "Don't push this button!" which opens The Gate to Wienerheim. After a while (cause wieners are sprinters) the Wienerhorn will sound, and Wienerrock will begin ! Long Live the (ankle)Biters!


To chongora what if its during the day and suddenly a burglar is in the room with you, both of you being surprised?
What if its not you in the room. What if its your daughter?

You can keep moving the scenario up until he's got us hands around the kids neck, holding them over an altar he's built from the bones of the family dog in the shape of swastika screaming "Hitler demands virgin flesh". Yeah, violence is probably a good option in that case. However we do not live in a world flush with burglars that suddenly teleport into rooms in broad daylight, frazzled. The scenario I was speaking to is an intruder in the home rummaging around, getting a weapon and trying to deal with him.

We cannot read an intruders mind, true. The dude might be on the hunt to make himself a new child-skin suit, that is possible. It is also very improbable. Yeah there are some sickos out there and I'm not denying that. What I am saying is that the chance of you running afoul of one is much lower than the chance that a conflict with an intruder of any stripe ordinary burglar or skin-suit-hunter, will result in harm to someone in the home you'd rather not be harmed.

The risk presented by confronting an intruder of uncofirmed intention is greater than the risk represented by not confronting an intruder of unknown intention.The probability of them just being an ordinary thief out for ordinary payday is just too high. Obviously those things don't make the news, don't get brought up as talking points in political speeches and aren't used the basis for Papa Wolf-fantasy action movies.

"Dude came in. Scared the gak out of us and took the PS4, some silverware, and about $100 in coins we had in a jar on the kitchen table" just isn't the story that gets told about intruders, despite it being by far the most common one. People fixate on unlikely but very bad outcomes. Same reason folks can be somewhere between casual and stubborn about not wearing seat belts, but worried shitless about plane crashes.

Thats not moving up the scenario. Thats a simple robbery. Most robberies are during the day.

I'm not trying to "move the scenario" as its the actual and most common one. Waking up during a robbery is less common in many regions actually. And thats assuming these are robbers and not kick robbers-the infamous home invaders.

I think we're actually on the same page. Self defense classes teach what both you and Co'Tor are saying: get to a position of safety which often means bailing out the back door. This however, may not be possible given the layout of the house, other family members etc.

As you note, night time robberies are less common than daylight robberies or even evening robberies. BUT if they are coming in at night when they know you are there, they have a reason.

There is a BIG distance between robberies where the perps go violent for what ever reason and 'skin suit wearing psychos'. The fact that you pick too points (non-violent burglary and 'skin suit making psycho) as if those are about the only option kind of make the way you frame the argument silly.

The reality is there are many, many cases where burglary turns into robbery goes right along with assault. Sometimes you don't get the choice to confront or not confront, so it benefits the home owner to control the circumstances as much as he/she is able as opposed to giving the perp the initiative.

These incidents make the news all too often.

A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

So 25% of burglaries where the victim is home turn violent...

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

Thats why I live in Austin, so I can surround my house with a sand moat filled with baby Arrakeen sandworms. Plus a little dusting of spice really improves the morning coffee.

Staying in my room wouldn't work. My kids rooms are on the opposite side of my house. If someone breaks in I have to go check it out. I can't hide even if I wanted too (which I wouldn't). And there will be no looking around for my gun. When I take it off it goes beside my bed in easy reach. All my other guns are locked in my safe.

I don't think playing the scenario game is terribly productive.

Castle Doctrine laws were put in place for a specific reason. To replace the Duty to Retreat laws. People objected to being legally required to attempt to flee their own homes in response to a criminal intruder. The onus shouldn't be on the law abiding resident who's doing nothing wrong to avoid a potentially violent confrontation, the onus should be on the criminal intruder to not commit the crime in the first place. Therefore, laws were changed to give residents legal protection to defend themselves and their property in their home.

If a resident does end up confronting an intruder, which is rare because crime rates are low and criminals usually don't want to get caught and will avoid trying to rob homes that are obviously occupied, the same requirements for justified self defense shootings apply as they would if the encounter took place outside the home. The criminal needs to be posing a reasonable imminent threat of harm. The only reason you should be discharging your firearm is to negate an imminent threat, that's why warning shots are illegal, if you're shooting you should be shooting to kill to save your life or the life of another, shooting to miss just creates a lethal public hazard.

In a self defense situation you should still be adhering to Cooper's 4 laws:

RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

The vast majority of self defense shootings that cause tragic mistakes or over reactions involve violations of at least one of those rules, usually because the shooter is jumpy, scared, not fully awake, etc.

There are numerous practical reasons why responsible gun owners only want to shoot in self defense as a last result. Firstly, most law abiding people aren't bloodthirsty psychopaths, secondly guns are loud, really loud, hearing damage inducing loud and they're even louder in confined spaces like homes. I like being able to hear, I like my kids and wife not having hearing damage either, I'm not going to risk causing any without a real good reason, specifically an imminent threat of harm. Third, but of high importance, the vast majority of homes don't provide any cover, only concealment, There is very little, if anything at all, that is actually bulletproof in your house. If you're going to have a gun for self defense you owe it to yourself and you're loved ones to practice enough to be at least reasonably profecient with it. If you miss, and even if you don't sometimes, that bullet you fired is going to keep going, into other rooms/parts of the home. Fourth, it's pretty much a universal truth that nobody wants to get shot. Simply pointing a gun at somebody is usually enough to get them to stop doing what they're doing and listen to what you have to say. Very few criminals are going to want to risk death just to steal a tv or whatever, they're either going to give up or flee when confronted by an armed resident and either action accomplishes the mission of protecting yourself and your family and secondarily protecting your stuff.

You can shoot through the door if there's an imminent threat, at least you can here in NC. That way a battered woman can flee her abuser and if he tracks her down and tries to attack her again she can defend herself with lethal force without having to wait until he forces his way in first. Same thing with a home invasion. If somebody is trying to break in and won't stop that creates a reasonable imminent threat of harm. There have been instances where a drunk goes to the wrong house and is too intoxicated and belligerent to listen to reason and tried to break down the door to the point that frightened residents shot him and it turned out he was a neighbor and everyone feels bad but a threat is a threat. That said, just because somebody gets into your house doesn't automatically make that person a threat.

It really isn't rocket science, follow the law as written and intended, practice safe handling of your firearm and everything should work out in a lawful manner. And if there's confusion it's going to get settled in court.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats why I live in Austin, so I can surround my house with a sand moat filled with baby Arrakeen sandworms. Plus a little dusting of spice really improves the morning coffee.

Nah, in Austin it's more like the worms from Beetlejuice than Dune.