NYTimes wrote:Gun rights advocates often argue that armed residents can help thwart crime. But law enforcement officials say that at least twice in recent days, armed bystanders have gone a big step beyond that, shooting at fleeing shoplifters who posed no immediate danger.

On Tuesday, prosecutors charged a woman with a misdemeanor for firing at a getaway vehicle in the parking lot of a Home Depot in Auburn Hills, Mich. And the police in Elkhart, Ind., said they were looking into whether to bring charges against a man who did much the same thing there on Monday. No one was hurt in either shooting.

In each case, the person with the gun was a customer who was licensed to carry a concealed weapon, saw store employees chasing shoplifters and fired as they drove off. In the Michigan case, the Oakland County prosecutor, Jessica R. Cooper, charged Tatiana Duva-Rodriguez with one count of reckless use, handling or discharge of a firearm.

“If this is proven, I find it very disturbing that someone would take out their gun in a busy parking lot and shoot at the tires of a passing car,” Ms. Cooper said. “Once fired, the bullet could have easily ricocheted or fragmented and injured or killed someone else.”

The incidents come amid a national debate over the proper response to gun violence, with some states tightening restrictions on weapons and others loosening them. While gun advocates argue that more legally carried weapons lead to less crime, gun control activists say the reverse is true. Many social scientists say the truth is murky.

There were no signs that the shoplifters in either case were armed or violent, and people on both sides say that a bystander shooting at a fleeing criminal is rare and wrong.

“You do not draw your firearm and fire at a fleeing suspect that is of no threat to yourself or others,” Concealed Nation, a group that advocates the legal carrying of concealed weapons, said in a statement it posted online. It added that “your job as a witness is to gather as much information as you can about the suspect, the vehicle and anything else that could help police.”

John Lott, an economist, author and prominent advocate of concealed carry, said millions of people have concealed carry permits, yet incidents like these “are incredibly rare.”

But John Feinblatt, president of Everytown for Gun Safety, the gun control group backed by Michael R. Bloomberg, said the shootings should be viewed in light of the campaigns to pass “stand your ground” laws — which he said had led directly to shootings — and statutes making it easier to carry a firearm.

“The subliminal message is that people should take the law into their own hands,” Mr. Feinblatt said. “You essentially are promoting a culture of vigilantism.”

Instances when armed bystanders stopped criminals have been reported; in Chicago recently, the police said an Uber driver shot and wounded a man who was shooting into a crowd. But there is much debate about how often that happens, and how often people use guns to defend themselves from real danger.

“You can find anecdotes, but we don’t have any good numbers,” said Susan B. Sorenson, a professor of social policy and of health and societies at the University of Pennsylvania.

The incident at Home Depot began Oct. 6 when a man in the Auburn Hills store, near Detroit, loaded a shopping cart with about $1,100 in merchandise, including power tools, a welder and a nail gun. He wheeled it past the cash registers and out the door, sprinted through the parking lot and loaded the goods into a sport utility vehicle.

An employee gave chase, yelling “stop” to no avail. The police said that Ms. Duva-Rodriguez, 46, then fired several shots from her 9-millimeter handgun at the vehicle, flattening a rear tire. The shoplifters escaped, but two men were arrested days later.

A video released by the police showed a man running through the parking lot, but does not show the gunfire.

Under most circumstances, officers are allowed to use deadly force only if there is imminent danger of death or great bodily harm to themselves or someone else. A licensed concealed weapon holder is held to a similar standard, said Rick Ector, a firearms trainer at Rick’s Firearm Academy of Detroit.

“This is an aberration,” he said. “Don’t get me wrong. In metro Detroit, there is a lot of crime and there have been numerous cases in which people used firearms lawfully to defend themselves. But this is just a case in which someone who was trained didn’t follow the law.”

The incident in Elkhart also involved two shoplifters taking power tools, in that case from a Big R department store. An armed customer joined store employees in the chase, and fired when the shoplifters got into their car, the police said. The suspects escaped.

A police spokesman, Sgt. Christopher Snyder, said that the police were still investigating but that there was a possibility of charges against the shopper.

 feeder wrote:



Who fires on a shoplifter in a parking lot? Madness.

 d-usa wrote:
She said that if she can't shoot shoplifters then she will never help anyone every again.

Dreadclaw69 wrote:Sounds like the right ruling. Shoplifter was not a threat and was retreating.

feeder wrote:To shoot Bad Guys is the reason anyone gets a CC permit.

Ouze wrote:Losing her permit is frankly getting off light in my opinion.

 feeder wrote:
To shoot Bad Guys is the reason anyone gets a CC permit.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Sounds like the right ruling. Shoplifter was not a threat and was retreating.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Sounds like the right ruling. Shoplifter was not a threat and was retreating.

Someone running and retreating is no threat.

 jhe90 wrote:
Yes you may be angey, hyped etc but first task surely is to secure premises, check no one is wounded if taff, customer etc can call apropuate services.

 d-usa wrote:
She said that if she can't shoot shoplifters then she will never help anyone every again.

 Frazzled wrote:
this just reinforces that the only thing that matters is family. the rest all the rest is a threat and will try to harm your family. laugh while it burns and don't interfere.

 feeder wrote:
To shoot Bad Guys is the reason anyone gets a CC permit.

 Hordini wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
this just reinforces that the only thing that matters is family. the rest all the rest is a threat and will try to harm your family. laugh while it burns and don't interfere.

There's a huge difference between helping a stranger in need and shooting at a fleeing shoplifter.

 Breotan wrote:
Now that the ruling is in, I hope she gets the feth sued out of her.

 d-usa wrote:
Lots of folks I know like to talk about how they are going to take out the guy robbing the gas station. My take is that the gas station has insurance to cover that loss and I'm just going to stay low and not draw any attention to myself.

 feeder wrote:
. To shoot Bad Guys is the reason anyone gets a CC permit.

 feeder wrote:

 feeder wrote:
. To shoot Bad Guys is the reason anyone gets a CC permit.

Lot of disagreement on my statement here, with no real justification. If not to shoot Bad Guys, why else conceal carry?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Clearly more guns are the solution.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe if she'd had a pistol in each hand she would have been more accurate.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The apparently small number of incidents like this one, compared to the number of concealed carry permits, tends to suggest that most CC people are sensible with their guns.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Clearly more guns are the solution.

Who else would you have liked to have seen armed in that encounter?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe if she'd had a pistol in each hand she would have been more accurate.

False. One pistol in each hand is less accurate as there is no support hand on each pistol making shots less accurate. Also the inability to properly aim both at the same time further complicates this.

 LethalShade wrote:
He was being sarcastic.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 LethalShade wrote:
He was being sarcastic.

Sometimes you just have to shoot wildly in the general direction of the post in the hope of hitting something vital

 feeder wrote:

 feeder wrote:
. To shoot Bad Guys is the reason anyone gets a CC permit.

Lot of disagreement on my statement here, with no real justification. If not to shoot Bad Guys, why else conceal carry?