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Well, I think it's not. But if so, it will take time.
The activity in our gaming group is rather high. Players complain as always about prices, rules, and missed opportunities. But they are still there, debating, playing maelstrom missions, and buying stuff.

40k's alive and well here. Not as strong as Magic the Gathering, but probably the most popular TT wargame at the moment.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Well, then again, the tournament scene is dying, in my opinion. And around here its certainly true.

Indeed, it appears that the tournament scene is getting thinner. There are players willing to play tourneys but the rule set, the tournament rule and missions do not look very promising.

40k is dying a slow death here, with more and more people putting up their armies for trade for MTG cards or X-Wing.

I say it's cuz of GW's hardline stance on being a "model company". Rules are hilariously imbalanced and there's no incentive on any of the hobby aspects. No encouragements of converting miniatures or sculpting, just buying their "conversion packs" and paint by numbers. No encouragement to scrounge for materials to make terrain or cool stuff like that, just "buy this expensive citadel realm of battle board!" the name also puts people off now. No one here thinks "Astra Militarum" sounds badass, more like something a 4th grade kid half-assed for his creative writing story.

GW also moved out of the major shopping centers, so going to one of their stores has become a hassle rather than just "pop in and have fun", while other stores are feeling that GW products doesn't sell well enough to justify dedicating floor space to it (the ones that do inevitably have the tables double for another game system or use flip tables with a grass mat over it).

Less people might be playing, but that could just be natural ebb and flow, but that said, 40k is far from dying. Plenty people still play, and more importantly, plenty people still buy in.

As much as other wargames have grown in the last five years, 40k is still the 400lb gorilla in the room.

Here's a list I put together of Amazon's "Toys and Games" rankings for another thread. X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault are doing better than any GW starter set is. Make your own conclusions from that.

Age of Sigmar Starter: #59,362
2014 Dark Vengeance: #52,911
Betrayal at Calth: #26,572
Escape from Goblin Town: #305,015
Warmachine Two Player set: #77,165
Infinity Operation Icestorm: #92,835
Dropzone Commander: #96,819
Forbidden Stars: #24,545
original X-Wing starter: #3,329
Force Awakens X-Wing starter: #2,224
Imperial Assault: #3,171
Star Wars Armada starter: #5,203
Zombicide Season 1: #5,401
Zombicide Season 2: #41,967
Zombicide Season 3: #28,301
Battlelore Second Edition: #45,512

For some reason, Escape from Goblin Town being #305,015 made me chuckle.

Yeah, the Hobbit is apparently suffering.

GW on a whole has been on a decline for over a year, and even those figures are somewhat inflated by the large number of gak vidya licenses that GW is handing out like candy. If they weren't getting so many royalties from those 5-minute mobile diversions, I suspect the company would be very close to folding right now.

From my view, attending a local games club and friends with my local games store, GW games are falling in popularity.

I’ve been a staunch defender of Games Workshop in recent years; the models, quality, service and even price. While I still believe in the models, service and quality the price has finally got me, or at least my local club.

18 moths ago 40K was as popular as ever at my local games club. Now, you’re lucky to see a single 40K game once a month. I personally would play most weeks with just the models I have, but other players have pretty much dropped the game.

While GW go from big models to bigger models other companies are going back to the small clam packs. In my circumstances I may have an extra £10-£15 a week to spend in my LGS; that’s a pack of Heroclix, an X-Wing or Attack Wing Ship, a small card game or LCG pack. From GW that’s… well, not a lot. An Ork army only needs so many Meks or Mad Doks. Yes I could save that money, but we all know that doesn’t happen when you have cash to burn in a games store.

So right now I really can’t see myself moving forward with GW. But I still wish them success, after all the Warhammer 40,000 universe is fantastic.

I just got back into it after a decade. Decided my obsession was enough to register at this reputable forum for such hobbies.

I used to play Chaos, but I find having a sexy elf magic party with spikey bits to be more fun. Got the SO involved with Space Wolves too...

Sure, prices are high, but the amount of time I spend on the hobby is money saved by the only alternative in my small town (drinking at the local bar). I'd much rather pack a bowl of dat hackle-lo (Morrowind reference) and paint ma' crazy modded mini's than deal with 'oomans anyway.

Most of my new armies were acquired through bartering and trades anyways. Just recently got $1500 CDN of models for 7K MTG cards. SW were traded for a crap load of old pc parts.

Between modding, conversions and being a dirty space pirate, you can offset a lot of the cost and still keep the scene alive.

Hardly, but here's the deal: Dakka is one of the most anti GW places I've managed to find online. You WILL hear a ton of people whining and saying their quitting on this site. Yes, GW is doing some bad business practices, but in recent months, they've seemingly been taking steps in the right direction (bringing back specialist games, plastic 30k, board games that are more then worth their dollar value for what you get, all recent codexies near the same power level).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Here's a list I put together of Amazon's "Toys and Games" rankings for another thread. X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault are doing better than any GW starter set is. Make your own conclusions from that.

What? Star Wars games are selling well? Hmm, I wonder if it has anything to do with a majorly hyped movie coming out in 4 days

 asorel wrote:
GW on a whole has been on a decline for over a year, and even those figures are somewhat inflated by the large number of gak vidya licenses that GW is handing out like candy. If they weren't getting so many royalties from those 5-minute mobile diversions, I suspect the company would be very close to folding right now.

Unrelated but I wish a Dawn of War 3 or Space Marine 2 (Heresy Boogaloo) would be made instead of all those borderline shovelware games and micro transaction filled apps.

I highly doubt 40k is dying so much as GW is thinking their business is unsinkable despite all the cracks that are starting to appear. GW will sooner capsize and sell off the company (so the board can cash in before they hit the bottom) before 40k as a game system is done. Making an AoS version of 40k that replaces 40k proper will sink the company. GW as a company has a few years left in the tank unless they make some catastrophically bad decisions before then. Its possible GW could restructure its design, sales, and management system but honestly I think the heads of the company are too complacent and disconnected from the importance of creative design and new ideas to ever make such a change. Their sluggishness to adapt to the internet is something that highlights how outdated their business plan is.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Hardly, but here's the deal: Dakka is one of the most anti GW places I've managed to find online.

Oh, my sweet summer child, so much you have to learn. This message board is by leaps and bounds the most tolerant of GW shillery I visit. But, to be fair, this is the only place I visit with any sort of positive attitude towards GW.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Hardly, but here's the deal: Dakka is one of the most anti GW places I've managed to find online. You WILL hear a ton of people whining and saying their quitting on this site. Yes, GW is doing some bad business practices, but in recent months, they've seemingly been taking steps in the right direction (bringing back specialist games, plastic 30k, board games that are more then worth their dollar value for what you get, all recent codexies near the same power level).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:

 asorel wrote:
GW on a whole has been on a decline for over a year, and even those figures are somewhat inflated by the large number of gak vidya licenses that GW is handing out like candy. If they weren't getting so many royalties from those 5-minute mobile diversions, I suspect the company would be very close to folding right now.

Unrelated but I wish a Dawn of War 3 or Space Marine 2 (Heresy Boogaloo) would be made instead of all those borderline shovelware games and micro transaction filled apps.

I highly doubt 40k is dying so much as GW is thinking their business is unsinkable despite all the cracks that are starting to appear. GW will sooner capsize and sell off the company (so the board can cash in before they hit the bottom) before 40k as a game system is done. Making an AoS version of 40k that replaces 40k proper will sink the company. GW as a company has a few years left in the tank unless they make some catastrophically bad decisions before then. Its possible GW could restructure its design, sales, and management system but honestly I think the heads of the company are too complacent and disconnected from the importance of creative design and new ideas to ever make such a change. Their sluggishness to adapt to the internet is something that highlights how outdated their business plan is.

I think these two quotes best sum up the thing about GW. They're big and lofty enough to keep floating, but without some changes, they may sink and capsize eventually. Also, all the negativity surrounding them, even if they did change, may not be enough to bring people back.

GW's business direction can be explained here:

http://unpluggedgames.co.uk/features/blood-dice-and-darkness-how-warhammer-defined-gaming-for-a-generation/

From the words of Rick Priestley, co-creator of Warhammer and creative head until 2010, the company doesn't give a damn about balanced gameplay anymore, sales dept is running the place.

The reason 40k is dying is because rules don't matter.

“The role I had in the studio was with staff working on game development and design, and they’d pretty much decided that game development and design wasn’t of any interest to them. The current attitude in Games Workshop is that they’re not a games company, it’s that they’re a model company selling collectibles. That’s something I find wholly self-deceiving and couldn’t possibly agree with.”

 Telly wrote:
. Allies, Formations (in their current state), and LOW/Strength D shenanigans are great for getting people to buy huge super-expensive models, but they're terrible for the game and make it impossible to balance.

But hey, that's just one guy's opinion.

Thats an opinion I can't agree with. All the things you mentioned are fine my opinion. It's just the points costs that are are ridiculous.

The current point system undervalues fast units and gargantuan creatures.

Ambiguous rules with variable interpretations which are never covered in faqs are the biggest threat in my opinion.

I only started two years ago but currently Warhammer 40k is a cheaper hobby than buying rpg books/big books in Canada and playing games. So here I am. I get more hours out of each model too for my time. And I got a lot of time due to my disabilities. I have noticed a small decline in players at the FLGS but it's currently holding strong. Though Armada and X-Wing continue to gain ground rapidly. I myself having a Rebel fleet.

 Gamgee wrote:
I only started a year ago but currently Warhammer 40k is a cheaper hobby than buying rpg books/big books in Canada and playing games.

...How? You only need to buy RPG books once, and are under no obligation to play the newest edition. 40k codices cost about as much as a D&D PHB these days, with models on top of that if you don't play with proxies.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Hardly, but here's the deal: Dakka is one of the most anti GW places I've managed to find online. You WILL hear a ton of people whining and saying their quitting on this site. Yes, GW is doing some bad business practices, but in recent months, they've seemingly been taking steps in the right direction (bringing back specialist games, plastic 30k, board games that are more then worth their dollar value for what you get, all recent codexies near the same power level).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Here's a list I put together of Amazon's "Toys and Games" rankings for another thread. X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault are doing better than any GW starter set is. Make your own conclusions from that.

What? Star Wars games are selling well? Hmm, I wonder if it has anything to do with a majorly hyped movie coming out in 4 days

It's also noteworthy that Forbidden Stars, a standalone 40K-themed board game, is doing better than the much-touted Calth box.

 TheWaspinator wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Hardly, but here's the deal: Dakka is one of the most anti GW places I've managed to find online. You WILL hear a ton of people whining and saying their quitting on this site. Yes, GW is doing some bad business practices, but in recent months, they've seemingly been taking steps in the right direction (bringing back specialist games, plastic 30k, board games that are more then worth their dollar value for what you get, all recent codexies near the same power level).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Here's a list I put together of Amazon's "Toys and Games" rankings for another thread. X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault are doing better than any GW starter set is. Make your own conclusions from that.

What? Star Wars games are selling well? Hmm, I wonder if it has anything to do with a majorly hyped movie coming out in 4 days

It's also noteworthy that Forbidden Stars, a standalone 40K-themed board game, is doing better than the much-touted Calth box.

All of this is GW's sales dept at work. They're spamming rulebooks, supplements, 30k, boardgames, video games, and not even consistently so. Tau books are way different than what they did with Necrons and Eldar. They keep changing things month to month, bouncing ideas onto the playerbase to see which one hooks us the most. But so far all of them are failing and none are catching a big enough playerbasefish to actually be worth duplicating. Decurion Formations being the exception and now spammed in every book. Even Age of Sigmar is just an attempt at something new which doesn't seem to be baiting anything either.

They're spending all these resources trying to figure out what the next big addiction will be for us. If they don't find it soon, 40k might become 50k: Age of Suckmore.

 asorel wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I only started a year ago but currently Warhammer 40k is a cheaper hobby than buying rpg books/big books in Canada and playing games.

...How? You only need to buy RPG books once, and are under no obligation to play the newest edition. 40k codices cost about as much as a D&D PHB these days, with models on top of that if you don't play with proxies.

It's flippin 80-100+ dollars for an RPG core book here. Way more with shipping added in. Where as my FLGS has a 10% discount on 40k, I can get that to an even better one since I know the owners, and one additional discount adds up to cheaper 40k. It's still expensive, but the other options are more expensive. I might read an RPG expansion book once if its one of those with no rules and all fluff. I don't buy rulebooks for 40k. Where as I can always bust out my models and have a game with my friends. Video games are terrible these days. Micro transaction riddled filth not worth their 80 dollar asking price new or the 50 dollar season pass and then the 50 dollars of cosmetics that aren't in game. Many of these games have less hours than painting a 40k model and ask just as much or more.

Edit
Thank god I got a year of Numenera books coming in on the cheap thanks to me backing their kickstarter last year or I would have no RPG books at all. And all wargames and no rpg's makes Gamgee a very dull boy.

 Gamgee wrote:

 asorel wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I only started a year ago but currently Warhammer 40k is a cheaper hobby than buying rpg books/big books in Canada and playing games.

...How? You only need to buy RPG books once, and are under no obligation to play the newest edition. 40k codices cost about as much as a D&D PHB these days, with models on top of that if you don't play with proxies.

It's flippin 80-100+ dollars for an RPG core book here. Way more with shipping added in. Where as my FLGS has a 10% discount on 40k, I can get that to an even better one, and one additional thing all adds up to cheaper 40k. I don't buy rulebooks. Video games are terrible these days. Micro transaction riddled filth not worth their 80 dollar asking price new or the 50 dollar season pass and then the 50 dollars of cosmetics that aren't in game. Many of these games have less hours than painting a 40k model and ask just as much or more.

If you don't buy rulebooks (which I presume means torrenting or some other solution), why are you complaining about the cost of RPG rulebooks, which would be privy to the same alternatives? Even with a 20% discount, 2 troops and an HQ is going to set you back nearly a hundred dollars canadian, and that's without paint. And most armies need more than that. Unless you're buying from Chinaman, I'm simply not seeing how the math works. Nor am I certain why you just went off on a tirade about vidya. I don't disagree with some of your points, but I have no idea why you brought them up in the first place.

I'm the GM for life. That's why. :( I have to look up rules asap and I can do that faster than any computer. Also I enjoy laying down and reading RPG books. Where as the rules for 40k are just rules. I'm not going to crack open a book and relax reading up on special rule interactions in 40k. As opposed to the new and interesting world in an RPG book. I used to play games and collect/host RPG games as my primary hobbies. Now I still rpg obviously since I have the books, but can't buy new ones since its price is hard to justify if I won't be sure of running it. Then that leaves video games, but that's simply out of the question barring the rare good game I find. So now I play host rpgs and play 40k since it was cheaper than games and I wasn't left with a gaping hole filled with regret after my purchase.

 Gamgee wrote:
I'm the GM for life. That's why. :( I have to look up rules asap and I can do that faster than any computer. Also I enjoy laying down and reading RPG books. Where as the rules for 40k are just rules. I'm not going to crack open a book and relax reading up on special rule interactions in 40k. As opposed to the new and interesting world in an RPG book. I used to play games and collect/host RPG games as my primary hobbies. Now I still rpg obviously since I have the books, but can't buy new ones since its price is hard to justify if I won't be sure of running it. Then that leaves video games, but that's simply out of the question barring the rare good game I find. So now I play host rpgs and play 40k since it was cheaper than games and I wasn't left with a gaping hole filled with regret after my purchase.

40k books have decent story sections man.

Not enough to justify their price though. A new Numenera book is 190 pages of glorious setting details, new class options, new monsters, and new ideas to implement into my games at half the cost (expansion book). Accompanied by lovely art. Some core RPG's can have hundreds of pages of content for setting and lore and even a few short stories.

I get like a tiny tiny morsel of writing in 40k rulebook/campaign book. Or I could get an entire book devoted to it free of the crap I don't want or need like rules for missions to play out ect. I also collect a small rebel fleet for Armada on the side.

GW has taken a beaten in the last few years but they are still the biggest company selling minis. X wing is a well designed game that has a massive IP behind it and in my view isn't quite the same thing since the models come assembled and painted.

What I still find telling is that so many other companies that make minis make them that are clearly compatible with 40k or inspired by a 40k model. the IP of 40k is still it's most valuable asset.

In my local area it is still going strong, but it used to be better there are less and less young players coming into the game and its harder to get people interested because of the large initial investment in both time and ££...

However I think 30k has given a lot of my local players a second wind and players I haven't seen in months have come out a lot more due to my flgs now doing 30k nights... tbh I am more excited than ever about my hobby (much to my partners disapproval ) and its all thanks to 30k!

That maybe doesn't bode well for 40k though, which is a pity because even if the balance is weak the setting could sell the game by itself and they think they should give video games a proper second look as DOW was what brought me in...

 pumpinchimp wrote:
Nah, there are loads of "Getting started" topics on here and reddit all the time.

Eh, those threads are a very bad way to base your statistics of how the game is going. Yes, many people are starting, but this isn't like other games where you just dive in, you have to do a lot of work just to get to the play part of it, and how many of those people drop out long before that point?

Let me put it this way, I just returned to the game and I won't have an army ready to go for almost a year after I've started back due to how long it takes to paint, now how many people will drop out in that year? Let's add a little to this puzzle, my friend and I got back into the game at the same time, he's already given up and I'm going glacially slow, while I know multiple people who started and quit simply because there isn't a big 40k scene near Boston, and it's been dwindling each year.

With the investment time of getting an army ready, 40k needs substantially more players joining than leaving each year, just to stay stable. Growth is another issue altogether.

There are no FLGS in my metro area (250K+ people) that sell 40K anymore. The only one that did went under this spring. There is a general hobby store that sells 40K, but doesn't seem to move a ton of product. No codexes ever in stock. Outdated kits still on the shelf still at full price.

There are no play areas left. The FLGS that had them was the one that went under. M:tG, D&D, and Yu-Gi-Oh are really the only games in town anymore.