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Bartali wrote:
Do people think there's money in large scale miniature games going forward ?
Where you need large(er) sales to justify the cost of the the moulds for plastic multi-part kits ?

Despite there being a lot of skirmish sized games with
metal/resin figures, no one is doing a GW in respect to larger scale games with multi-part plastic kits.
Not profitable enough for other companies to try ?

GW is doing plastic because it still moves large amounts of product, courtesy of their competence in days gone by. When GW folds, if for some reason no one buys GW, Privateer Press or some other company would likely increase in size as the old customers seek another source for their vice. If enough of them go to one company instead of spreading around, that company would have reason to start producing plastic kits.

 asorel wrote:

Bartali wrote:
Do people think there's money in large scale miniature games going forward ?
Where you need large(er) sales to justify the cost of the the moulds for plastic multi-part kits ?

Despite there being a lot of skirmish sized games with
metal/resin figures, no one is doing a GW in respect to larger scale games with multi-part plastic kits.
Not profitable enough for other companies to try ?

GW is doing plastic because it still moves large amounts of product, courtesy of their competence in days gone by. When GW folds, if for some reason no one buys GW, Privateer Press or some other company would likely increase in size as the old customers seek another source for their vice. If enough of them go to one company instead of spreading around, that company would have reason to start producing plastic kits.

I actually don't want one dominate hegemony in the hobby. I like many really good games going on at once. I like variety and choice.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 asorel wrote:

Bartali wrote:
Do people think there's money in large scale miniature games going forward ?
Where you need large(er) sales to justify the cost of the the moulds for plastic multi-part kits ?

Despite there being a lot of skirmish sized games with
metal/resin figures, no one is doing a GW in respect to larger scale games with multi-part plastic kits.
Not profitable enough for other companies to try ?

GW is doing plastic because it still moves large amounts of product, courtesy of their competence in days gone by. When GW folds, if for some reason no one buys GW, Privateer Press or some other company would likely increase in size as the old customers seek another source for their vice. If enough of them go to one company instead of spreading around, that company would have reason to start producing plastic kits.

I actually don't want one dominate hegemony in the hobby. I like many really good games going on at once. I like variety and choice.

Competition is always desirable in a market, but not always achieved. You can't escape the fact that some people are better at playing the game of capitalism than others.

 asorel wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 asorel wrote:

Bartali wrote:
Do people think there's money in large scale miniature games going forward ?
Where you need large(er) sales to justify the cost of the the moulds for plastic multi-part kits ?

Despite there being a lot of skirmish sized games with
metal/resin figures, no one is doing a GW in respect to larger scale games with multi-part plastic kits.
Not profitable enough for other companies to try ?

GW is doing plastic because it still moves large amounts of product, courtesy of their competence in days gone by. When GW folds, if for some reason no one buys GW, Privateer Press or some other company would likely increase in size as the old customers seek another source for their vice. If enough of them go to one company instead of spreading around, that company would have reason to start producing plastic kits.

I actually don't want one dominate hegemony in the hobby. I like many really good games going on at once. I like variety and choice.

Competition is always desirable in a market, but not always achieved. You can't escape the fact that some people are better at playing the game of capitalism than others.

Granted, there will always be a number one, it's just the degree of being at the top that I want to shrink.

Our club seems to be branching out to more game systems. There are half the number of 40k games than there used to be. Now its mainly Infinity, WWX, Guidball or some other skirmish game.

I hope so, would be a wake up call for GW...,then again the wake up call for Battle was AoS...

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 pumpinchimp wrote:
Nah, there are loads of "Getting started" topics on here and reddit all the time.

Eh, those threads are a very bad way to base your statistics of how the game is going. Yes, many people are starting, but this isn't like other games where you just dive in, you have to do a lot of work just to get to the play part of it, and how many of those people drop out long before that point?

Let me put it this way, I just returned to the game and I won't have an army ready to go for almost a year after I've started back due to how long it takes to paint, now how many people will drop out in that year? Let's add a little to this puzzle, my friend and I got back into the game at the same time, he's already given up and I'm going glacially slow, while I know multiple people who started and quit simply because there isn't a big 40k scene near Boston, and it's been dwindling each year.

With the investment time of getting an army ready, 40k needs substantially more players joining than leaving each year, just to stay stable. Growth is another issue altogether.

Yes there is...

I live in Boston...

Pandemonium in Cambridge, battleground games on the south Shore, you soldier in the north shore..

I've heard on multiple occasions that Panda is a dwindling community for 40k, and that a lot more of it is shifting towards NH. Haven't heard a word about those other two stores from about a dozen or so people who play or have played 40k in recent history, so can't make any opinion on those.

Though TTA did close and it was trying to foster a 40k community that didn't do too well.

Edit: Most people don't even bring 40k stock to conventions as it just doesn't do well, maybe at Connecticon but even then it's so-so.

Where about I'm mass are you? Maybe we could get a game in.

If you wanna pm me your Facebook I can add you to a very active group. They're a secret group on FB

I'm currently north towards the NH boarder, but I used to be in the Newton area, which is probably where I'll be moving to in the near future. When I last played 40k it was at Danger Planet, ages ago.

I'd be up for a game but my army won't be complete for a while.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 pumpinchimp wrote:
Nah, there are loads of "Getting started" topics on here and reddit all the time.

Eh, those threads are a very bad way to base your statistics of how the game is going. Yes, many people are starting, but this isn't like other games where you just dive in, you have to do a lot of work just to get to the play part of it, and how many of those people drop out long before that point?

Let me put it this way, I just returned to the game and I won't have an army ready to go for almost a year after I've started back due to how long it takes to paint, now how many people will drop out in that year? Let's add a little to this puzzle, my friend and I got back into the game at the same time, he's already given up and I'm going glacially slow, while I know multiple people who started and quit simply because there isn't a big 40k scene near Boston, and it's been dwindling each year.

With the investment time of getting an army ready, 40k needs substantially more players joining than leaving each year, just to stay stable. Growth is another issue altogether.

Yes there is...

I live in Boston...

Pandemonium in Cambridge, battleground games on the south Shore, you soldier in the north shore..

I've heard on multiple occasions that Panda is a dwindling community for 40k, and that a lot more of it is shifting towards NH. Haven't heard a word about those other two stores from about a dozen or so people who play or have played 40k in recent history, so can't make any opinion on those.

Though TTA did close and it was trying to foster a 40k community that didn't do too well.

Edit: Most people don't even bring 40k stock to conventions as it just doesn't do well, maybe at Connecticon but even then it's so-so.

Where about I'm mass are you? Maybe we could get a game in.

If you wanna pm me your Facebook I can add you to a very active group. They're a secret group on FB

I'm currently north towards the NH boarder, but I used to be in the Newton area, which is probably where I'll be moving to in the near future. When I last played 40k it was at Danger Planet, ages ago.

I'd be up for a game but my army won't be complete for a while.

Dude I live in Plaistow NH.

We should play. I got a table and everything.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 pumpinchimp wrote:
Nah, there are loads of "Getting started" topics on here and reddit all the time.

Eh, those threads are a very bad way to base your statistics of how the game is going. Yes, many people are starting, but this isn't like other games where you just dive in, you have to do a lot of work just to get to the play part of it, and how many of those people drop out long before that point?

Let me put it this way, I just returned to the game and I won't have an army ready to go for almost a year after I've started back due to how long it takes to paint, now how many people will drop out in that year? Let's add a little to this puzzle, my friend and I got back into the game at the same time, he's already given up and I'm going glacially slow, while I know multiple people who started and quit simply because there isn't a big 40k scene near Boston, and it's been dwindling each year.

With the investment time of getting an army ready, 40k needs substantially more players joining than leaving each year, just to stay stable. Growth is another issue altogether.

Yes there is...

I live in Boston...

Pandemonium in Cambridge, battleground games on the south Shore, you soldier in the north shore..

I've heard on multiple occasions that Panda is a dwindling community for 40k, and that a lot more of it is shifting towards NH. Haven't heard a word about those other two stores from about a dozen or so people who play or have played 40k in recent history, so can't make any opinion on those.

Though TTA did close and it was trying to foster a 40k community that didn't do too well.

Edit: Most people don't even bring 40k stock to conventions as it just doesn't do well, maybe at Connecticon but even then it's so-so.

Where about I'm mass are you? Maybe we could get a game in.

If you wanna pm me your Facebook I can add you to a very active group. They're a secret group on FB

I'm currently north towards the NH boarder, but I used to be in the Newton area, which is probably where I'll be moving to in the near future. When I last played 40k it was at Danger Planet, ages ago.

I'd be up for a game but my army won't be complete for a while.

Dude I live in Plaistow NH.

We should play. I got a table and everything.

Awesome, and I'd be totally up for that, but right now I have nowhere near a playable army painted or even built.

If you go to conventions regularly, or play Vintage, you've probably ran into me before though. A year ago I was paid to be at conventions, so ya'know.

I could have worked PAX this year but I'm all like lazy now D:

Nah I don't do conventions lol.

Just play locally. Lol

But... but... How am I supposed to be a famous booth babe if people on the internet don't recognize me?

Though on a serious note, do ITC events happen around here, if so what are stores I should look into?

Dman137 wrote:
40k is alive and well up here in Canada

Canada is pretty big. I can say it's not doing well in Canada. So I wouldn't say it's alive and well up in Canada. Maybe in your area, but that doesn't mean Canada is doing well. I am not saying its' not doing well because we have no idea how it really is doing. All I can say is, 40K or GW is not in my area is 40K doing well.

Well, I think there are companies out there which would buy GW's IP for cheap. But that's it.
As said, GW wants to be seen as miniature manufactorer for collectors. The gaming aspect is not in the focus anymore.
This will decrease the interest of potential buyouters.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think there are companies out there which would buy GW's IP for cheap. But that's it.
As said, GW wants to be seen as miniature manufactorer for collectors. The gaming aspect is not in the focus anymore.
This will decrease the interest of potential buyouters.

So not only are they shrinking their market by isolating themselves to only modelers and alienating gamers, but they are also restricting their buyout appeal to non-gaming model companies...
That really sounds like they want to die a slow death.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think there are companies out there which would buy GW's IP for cheap. But that's it.
As said, GW wants to be seen as miniature manufactorer for collectors. The gaming aspect is not in the focus anymore.
This will decrease the interest of potential buyouters.

That's really stupid. The rules are what drives sales. Get rid of them and you might as well sign your death certificate.

In the UK it's declining, at major stores might I add (Manchester). A few months ago it was tough to get a game in, so the store manager ended up having to split 4x4 boards in half to accommodate everyone. Now it's possible to have two 4x4 boards and still have some boards leftover. This might be partly due to the stupid system they currently have in place (activate unit a turn and only activated units can move shoot, etc). Heavily promotes death stars and their is literally no point bringing a 1500 list or so because due to time requirements for a few people to platy AoS, you'll only move three units max. That's assuming people don't kill your activated units by ganging up, so essentially you've got 2v1, followed by 4v1, etc.

Not sure how my other GW is doing, but from what I hear, it's not doing great, incorporating their own house rules that people disagree with. Also painted models have preferred enemy against unpainted and not everyone has time to paint.

Indeed, the game drives sales and not the pure collection of models and units.
Collectors tend to buy one model/unit of each type of a certain army, while a gamer often fields several exemplars of the same model/unit (spamming).

Our GW had a thriving community when I moved here. The first league I was in started at 24 people and ended with 18 still playing weekly or more. There were fantasy events all the time which were also well attended. Now it's hard to find a game. One FLGS in the area does a tournament once a month, but only gets 6-10 people. The same store will have 20-50 people on days for X wing, hero clix, armada or MTG. Another FLGS went from 90% 40k to 100% WMH in the last 2 years. I just spent a bunch of money on a FW mechanicum army. After 2 months of posting in the local FB 40k groups, I still haven't played a single actual 30k game. Sigmar has completely killed off fantasy in the area. I've seen 2 games since AoS was released, one was a trial AoS game, the other was using 8th rulebook. One of the guys playing asked me if I knew anyone buying dark elves because this would probably be his last game.

Literally every other semi mainstream game is picking up players while 40k fades into the background and fantasy vanishes completely...

@Toofast: Oh my goodness. This looks really bad.
In our FLGS, AoS is dead nobody plays it despite the fact that the store owner has sold more boxes Fantasy than 40k in August/September.
40k is just played by a few veterans and 30k got some boost not only due to the board game but because being more balanced (Marines vs. Marines) than 40k.
Moreover, some players moved into other game systems like WMH, X-wing, and bolt action. More balanced and more rewarding to play.

A lot of 40k hipsters are going on and on about how the game is dying, blah blah blah. It is like anything else these days, if it is big, successful, and popular, it isn't cool - so it must fail. They spew their hate every chance they get, which has driven down activity in the forums - at least, from anecdotal experience. 40k is by no means dying, but it is a niche market and like any other niche market, it will fluctuate in popularity in areas. Some areas that were hubs become ghost towns, while new ones emerge elsewhere. A lot of long-time players like myself are used to playing it for a few years, then switching to another game for a little while. Such fluctuations are represented in the local gaming scene as well.

The decline of local clubs is also, it seems, partially driven by the economy in general. 40k, board games, etc. are not an incredibly safe investment. Even now when nerd is cooler than ever, it isn't easy to turn a major profit. So, with the economic down turn, many stores are shifting their focus, using their space in order to diversify their product, leaving less room for tables that don't generate that much money (most people buy product online because it is cheaper).

Anyways, there are a number of very positive trends that suggest that 40k is trending upwards again. I think one of the biggest is that there are more channels on Youtube than ever, which show many different styles of play.

If you're looking for numbers to show what the popularity of the game is doing, I direct you to the last 5 years of GWs financial reports. It's not exactly a secret that revenue has been declining YoY despite faster release pace, higher prices, ALLY EVERYTHING rules designed to increase sales and releases of new core rulebooks for both games, forcing every single player to spend at least $85 to keep playing. If new pockets of players are emerging to replace the old ones, they are smaller and spend a lot less money than the groups of people leaving the game...

 Grumblewartz wrote:
A lot of 40k hipsters are going on and on about how the game is dying, blah blah blah. It is like anything else these days, if it is big, successful, and popular, it isn't cool - so it must fail. They spew their hate every chance they get, which has driven down activity in the forums - at least, from anecdotal experience. 40k is by no means dying, but it is a niche market and like any other niche market, it will fluctuate in popularity in areas. Some areas that were hubs become ghost towns, while new ones emerge elsewhere. A lot of long-time players like myself are used to playing it for a few years, then switching to another game for a little while. Such fluctuations are represented in the local gaming scene as well.

The decline of local clubs is also, it seems, partially driven by the economy in general. 40k, board games, etc. are not an incredibly safe investment. Even now when nerd is cooler than ever, it isn't easy to turn a major profit. So, with the economic down turn, many stores are shifting their focus, using their space in order to diversify their product, leaving less room for tables that don't generate that much money (most people buy product online because it is cheaper).

Anyways, there are a number of very positive trends that suggest that 40k is trending upwards again. I think one of the biggest is that there are more channels on Youtube than ever, which show many different styles of play.

Yes and no. Sure, niche markets experience ups and downs, but with GW hurting store support and internet sales through their practices, being infrequent about FAQ releases, killing off their own forum, and killing off their tournament scene, on top of their asinine comments, it's hard to say that 40k hasn't been hurt. I don't think its all doom and gloom that everyone says it is, but its hard to deny that large tournaments are less and less frequent.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
A lot of 40k hipsters are going on and on about how the game is dying, blah blah blah. It is like anything else these days, if it is big, successful, and popular, it isn't cool - so it must fail. They spew their hate every chance they get, which has driven down activity in the forums - at least, from anecdotal experience. 40k is by no means dying, but it is a niche market and like any other niche market, it will fluctuate in popularity in areas. Some areas that were hubs become ghost towns, while new ones emerge elsewhere. A lot of long-time players like myself are used to playing it for a few years, then switching to another game for a little while. Such fluctuations are represented in the local gaming scene as well.

The decline of local clubs is also, it seems, partially driven by the economy in general. 40k, board games, etc. are not an incredibly safe investment. Even now when nerd is cooler than ever, it isn't easy to turn a major profit. So, with the economic down turn, many stores are shifting their focus, using their space in order to diversify their product, leaving less room for tables that don't generate that much money (most people buy product online because it is cheaper).

Anyways, there are a number of very positive trends that suggest that 40k is trending upwards again. I think one of the biggest is that there are more channels on Youtube than ever, which show many different styles of play.

Could you refer me to some of those YouTube channels?

 Grumblewartz wrote:
A lot of 40k hipsters are going on and on about how the game is dying, blah blah blah. It is like anything else these days, if it is big, successful, and popular, it isn't cool - so it must fail. They spew their hate every chance they get, which has driven down activity in the forums - at least, from anecdotal experience. 40k is by no means dying, but it is a niche market and like any other niche market, it will fluctuate in popularity in areas. Some areas that were hubs become ghost towns, while new ones emerge elsewhere. A lot of long-time players like myself are used to playing it for a few years, then switching to another game for a little while. Such fluctuations are represented in the local gaming scene as well.

The decline of local clubs is also, it seems, partially driven by the economy in general. 40k, board games, etc. are not an incredibly safe investment. Even now when nerd is cooler than ever, it isn't easy to turn a major profit. So, with the economic down turn, many stores are shifting their focus, using their space in order to diversify their product, leaving less room for tables that don't generate that much money (most people buy product online because it is cheaper).

Anyways, there are a number of very positive trends that suggest that 40k is trending upwards again. I think one of the biggest is that there are more channels on Youtube than ever, which show many different styles of play.

Many of those "haterz" were former lovers of the game. What changed? It wasn't, "its cool to hate on GW now, so I'll throw my years of investments out the window." If you really think that, you haven't been listening to a word anyone has said.
Also, you can't blame the economy, it's on the up swing. Why isn't GW?
Also also, other wargames are on the rise while GW in on the decline....um...economy?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
A lot of 40k hipsters are going on and on about how the game is dying, blah blah blah. It is like anything else these days, if it is big, successful, and popular, it isn't cool - so it must fail. They spew their hate every chance they get, which has driven down activity in the forums - at least, from anecdotal experience. 40k is by no means dying, but it is a niche market and like any other niche market, it will fluctuate in popularity in areas. Some areas that were hubs become ghost towns, while new ones emerge elsewhere. A lot of long-time players like myself are used to playing it for a few years, then switching to another game for a little while. Such fluctuations are represented in the local gaming scene as well.

The decline of local clubs is also, it seems, partially driven by the economy in general. 40k, board games, etc. are not an incredibly safe investment. Even now when nerd is cooler than ever, it isn't easy to turn a major profit. So, with the economic down turn, many stores are shifting their focus, using their space in order to diversify their product, leaving less room for tables that don't generate that much money (most people buy product online because it is cheaper).

Anyways, there are a number of very positive trends that suggest that 40k is trending upwards again. I think one of the biggest is that there are more channels on Youtube than ever, which show many different styles of play.

Many of those "haterz" were former lovers of the game. What changed? It wasn't, "its cool to hate on GW now, so I'll throw my years of investments out the window." If you really think that, you haven't been listening to a word anyone has said.
Also, you can't blame the economy, it's on the up swing. Why isn't GW?
Also also, other wargames are on the rise while GW in on the decline....um...economy?

I used to love the game, but now I would be classed as a 'Hater' by Grumblewartz. Why am I a hater? It's because of a series of disgusting, cheap actions made by GW that has left me out of pocket or made my forces very uncompetitive.

Examples such as:
1) Buying 6th edition from a GW store, then two months later 7th drops. £45 wasted.
2) Same deal for the SM codex - the GW staff don't tell you a new one is out soon - they let you buy stuff and then find out a few weeks later it's useless.
3) Oh and my Imperial Knights codex... let's not forget that one.
4) Dark Eldar codex being re-done, cutting out all the named Characters and any flavour it once had - and charging £30 for the pleasure. It would be cheaper for me to just tear out the pages from my old codex and get the same product
5) Chaos Space Marines - constant neglect codex-wise and has never been rectified properly. The codex was nice when it came out but then every codex since has been powerful in comparison.
6) Not being allowed to play in a GW store unless I bought models or paints as the tables are now for 'new players only' it's a case of reel you in then dump you once they have your money.

I could go on, but I doubt it's new for anyone who has experience with this company. So yes, I'm a hater, you may even class me as a hipster because I guarantee my beard is more freaking majestic than anything you could grow. Either way, people turn into 'haterz', they're not born.

For me 40k as a game is dead. I haven't played in a year although i do occasionally get the urge to paint so the hobby itself is still interesting me but the game itself is finished. It's just not what I'm looking for anymore and that's a real shame. I used to have 11 army's all several thousand points now i have 4 at 1500ish each or will when i've finished selling them off and i will probably get rid of another 2 whole army's before I'm finished. That's how bad it's got for me. I just can't be bothered with all the time and effort it takes for a game now. 6th started it but 7th killed it.

Have to echo that. My friends have an Apoc game sorted for Saturday, about 16k. Thing is, I know its going to be hell turkey and canoptek harvest spam with a token effort of my Tyranids against Thunderdome, Sentinels, Warhound titan and if I'm honest, I would be more content painting what I do have.

My friends love playing because they all have competitive armies, due to them jumping on bandwagons after losing badly to said armies. I don't play like that, I don't want to. I've stopped playing like that ever since I took a three Flyrant list to a tournament and felt bad my opponent couldn't do anything all game (even threw a gaunt unit at him just so he could kill something)

I'm just honing my painting skills until I start painting Infinity

Yes, it is GW's fault that people constantly try to break a game that was never designed for competitive play. Yes, it is their fault the game is sooooooo expensive (oh wait, don't look now, model WWII tanks of any quality are at least $45 new). Oh x army is better than y army. Spread more hate over things that are 1.) beyond their control; 2.) universal to a game centered on the production of miniatures for a nice market; 3.) my friends are all because they spam the best units of an elite army and I refuse to play anything other than my favorite list that hasn't changed in 4 editions - it is totally GW's fault, yet again; 4.) I quit playing the game 5 years ago but I constantly feel the need to badmouth the hobby because, you know, internet reasons; 5.g) Screw GW for not supporting my favorite army that no one else really plays, but they should spend hundreds of thousands of $$$$...by the way I am not going to buy any of the new sets.

And dude, if you can't find youtube channels with 40k battle reports of all types, I mean...you know that you are trolling. Literally type 40k battle report and search it.

So much sarcasm, so little content. It will be more constructive to not get emotional, you're not GW so try not to take it personally

If you are annoyed by people complaining about GW, the solution is simple. Don't visit forum threads discussing issues with aspects of GW. There are plenty of other threads that can enrich your GW experience. Bliss is just a click away. You can't come onto a thread to complain about the thread causing you annoyance because you're doing it to yourself. People aren't forcing you to read it.

 Wulfmar wrote:
So much sarcasm, so little content. It will be more constructive to not get emotional, you're not GW so try not to take it personally

If you are annoyed by people complaining about GW, the solution is simple. Don't visit forum threads discussing issues with aspects of GW. There are plenty of other threads that can enrich your GW experience. Bliss is just a click away. You can't come onto a thread to complain about the thread causing you annoyance because you're doing it to yourself. People aren't forcing you to read it.

What a strange world that we live in where the person who is positive about the hobby and game that we are on a forum discussing is the one who is told to leave the forums.

The threads on the topic causing you the stress and mental anguish. Not the forum - the historical and modelling sections are much more relaxing and constructive