Is 40k dying?

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**vipoid**

Remember when GW's website actually had articles and such? Before they spent £4.5 million to turn it into a dull webstore with an horrible layout.

Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?

**jonolikespie**

That's been a rule for a long time now, not even aftermarket guns or shoulderpads.

I doubt you can even get away with resin bases if your local employee wants to stick to the rules.

**vipoid**

jonolikespie wrote:
That's been a rule for a long time now, not even aftermarket guns or shoulderpads.

Wow. Just... wow.

**agnosto**

jonolikespie wrote:
That's been a rule for a long time now, not even aftermarket guns or shoulderpads.

I doubt you can even get away with resin bases if your local employee wants to stick to the rules.

Well they did have a 25% rule or something like it at one time where the model could only be that % of non-GW because so many people had 3rd party bases.

This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.

**Selym**

vipoid wrote:
Remember when GW's website actually had articles and such? Before they spent £4.5 million to turn it into a dull webstore with an horrible layout.

Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?

GW used to have a rule that if something was over 50% GW, you could do what you want. These days, if someone mentions that they used non-GW greenstuff to fill a hole in a model, they get asked to leave.

**vipoid**

agnosto wrote:
This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.

It seems terrible to me because people don't generally want to play in a place that feels oppressive. In the same way that most people looking for a relaxing holiday wouldn't choose North Korea as a destination.

Moreover, it comes across as bitter and resentful on GW's part. "How dare anyone not buy absolutely every model in their army from us and us alone!"

Even if you run with the idea that they're a store first, it's still ludicrous. It would be like a clothes store throwing out every customer who wasn't wearing only clothes bought from that store (or chain of stores).

**jonolikespie**

I'm lucky in that my nearest GW I can sit with pots of non GW paint and basing materials and work on a GW model.

I think if I tried that at my next nearest store I wouldn't be asked to leave, but I'd be told I can't have them in the store, then get and earful about how bad they are in comparison to GW paints because that manager has used every paint on the market and knows GW is the best. He might also throw in some lines about PP using toxic chemicals or Vellejo using child labour.

Actually as I type this I'm realizing the part about the toxic paints isn't hyperbole, I could see that manager using that line.... I've also heard from him that he's played all 3 editons or Warmachine and hated the game because people he played at tourneys would just use wooden featureless pegs of the right diameter and height instead of models... he also didn't seem to know the base mechanics of Warmachine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
agnosto wrote:
This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.

It seems terrible to me because people don't generally want to play in a place that feels oppressive. In the same way that most people looking for a relaxing holiday wouldn't choose North Korea as a destination.

Moreover, it comes across as bitter and resentful on GW's part. "How dare anyone not buy absolutely every model in their army from us and us alone!"

Even if you run with the idea that they're a store first, it's still ludicrous. It would be like a clothes store throwing out every customer who wasn't wearing only clothes bought from that store (or chain of stores).

I used to work in parts at a car dealership, if someone came in with another brand of car we'd fix it.
If someone wanted the cheaper non genuine parts we'd call the after market guys up the road and have the parts delivered.
We wanted your business even if your car wasn't from us and used parts we didn't sell because the idea of turning away a customer wanting to come to us and spend money on our product was

ing ludicrous.

**agnosto**

vipoid wrote:
agnosto wrote:
This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.

It seems terrible to me because people don't generally want to play in a place that feels oppressive. In the same way that most people looking for a relaxing holiday wouldn't choose North Korea as a destination.

Moreover, it comes across as bitter and resentful on GW's part. "How dare anyone not buy absolutely every model in their army from us and us alone!"

Even if you run with the idea that they're a store first, it's still ludicrous. It would be like a clothes store throwing out every customer who wasn't wearing only clothes bought from that store (or chain of stores).

I've stepped foot into a GW store exactly one time in my life and it was only out of curiosity. My state saw its first GW open about 3 years ago and they've already changed managers. GW managers are held to absurd sales targets or they lose their jobs (so I hear anyway) so if you walk into a GW store and you're not buying GW and the store isn't positioned well in the community or whatever; if you're no buying GW, you're likely costing that manager their job eve if it weren't a corporate policy. I get that which is why I'll never go to a GW store because I can't keep to that rule.

This really shows how silly GW-branded stores are in the first place.

**Zy'lon**

Pretty obvious that a popular game like this is not dying. Having to make sure for competitors, who were not there before in the amounts they are today, sure. Only normal.

**vipoid**

Zy'lon wrote:
Having to make sure for competitors, who were not there before in the amounts they are today, sure.

Do you write rules for GW?

**Blacksails**

vipoid wrote:

Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?

I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them. I don't know where the line is at that store for how much non-GW you could have, but I suspect its reasonable-ish. Dude seemed okay. He was super hesitant about me bringing my BFG (all official GW models) to play and show off, so I never really went back. Shame, probably the only dedicated wargaming store. Rest are all card shops or comic stores.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

jonolikespie wrote:
That's been a rule for a long time now, not even aftermarket guns or shoulderpads.

I doubt you can even get away with resin bases if your local employee wants to stick to the rules.

I have bunch of dudes with west wind metal heads instead of the normal cadian ones, not one of the four GW managers at my local GW have complained, they just think guardsmen with brody helmets are awesome.

(I know four is quite a turnover, but there was one guy who had run the store for yonks, then he left and the new guys have only stayed a few months each.)

**Vaktathi**

vipoid wrote:
Remember when GW's website actually had articles and such? Before they spent £4.5 million to turn it into a dull webstore with an horrible layout.

I would not have gotten into 40k if the website of today was in place when I got started. I browsed through their website, all the fluff and info, for probably two years before I ever hopped in to actually buy anything and play. All the cool fluff, the armies broken down by Legion/Chapter/Regiment/etc, hundreds of pages of background material, looking at all the individual bitz and coming up with conversion ideas, etc.

The gakky shopping cart their site has turned into does nothing to draw people in. It's really sad

Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?

Absolutely true.

**vipoid**

Blacksails wrote:
I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them.

You say that, but surely anyone interested in your army would still be playing 40k - i.e. they'd still be buying the core rules, the codices, possibly glue/paint etc. Also, they might, for example, get their infantry elsewhere, but still use 40k vehicles.

Just seems like people buying some stuff from GW would still be preferable to people buying nothing from GW.

**Accolade**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
(I know four is quite a turnover, but there was one guy who had run the store for yonks, then he left and the new guys have only stayed a few months each.)

That's pretty average for a GW store

**Wayniac**

vipoid wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them.

You say that, but surely anyone interested in your army would still be playing 40k - i.e. they'd still be buying the core rules, the codices, possibly glue/paint etc. Also, they might, for example, get their infantry elsewhere, but still use 40k vehicles.

Just seems like people buying some stuff from GW would still be preferable to people buying nothing from GW.

Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?

To GW, if you aren't buying everything from them, you might as well be buying nothing. I honestly while typing that expected some cartoon-type of montage with sad music talking about how you're costing people their livelihood and probably kick puppies for not choosing to buy everything from your local GW shop. I could, in fact, see the same done for any FLGS in general.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

WayneTheGame wrote:
Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?.

The old manager actually described what happened there to us young 'uns a while back. He said that they couldn't sell them at a discount after having made people originally buy them at full price and get nothing extra for it.

**Blacksails**

vipoid wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them.

You say that, but surely anyone interested in your army would still be playing 40k - i.e. they'd still be buying the core rules, the codices, possibly glue/paint etc. Also, they might, for example, get their infantry elsewhere, but still use 40k vehicles.

Just seems like people buying some stuff from GW would still be preferable to people buying nothing from GW.

A fair point, and basically how my first FLGS operated. I'd buy stuff online that I couldn't get from him, but made sure I'd buy anything I wanted that he carried from him. I didn't loudly advertise any 3rd party parts or accessories he didn't carry, but when asked, it was totally kosher to explain what it is and where I got it. Plus, it helped the store figure out what new products they should consider carrying if there was enough talk going around.

I guess in making your point, I'm just about done with GW. All the new IG stuff I've seen (formations and such) are underwhelming in every way possible, and I don't have much of a group here. If they'd let me game at the store, maybe I'd be more into it, but compared to the interest X-Wing is getting here even among my non wargaming friends it makes it a hard sell to keep shelling out premium pricing for a mediocre product - game wise.

**Accolade**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?.

The old manager actually described what happened there to us young 'uns a while back. He said that they couldn't sell them at a discount after having made people originally buy them at full price and get nothing extra for it.

That doesn't make any sense- all other stores put things on sale all the time and tackle this problem just fine.

The real problem is GW subscribes to the Louis Vuitton mindset for business, where it's better to destroy product than sell at sale, less it serve to devalue the brand. They've said in official statements that they won't offer sales in the future, but have considered bundles that provide a better cost overall.

Personally, I think GW's opinion of itself is beyond inflated if they spend their time trying to duplicate the business models of Louis Vuitton and Ferrari.

**Azreal13**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?.

The old manager actually described what happened there to us young 'uns a while back. He said that they couldn't sell them at a discount after having made people originally buy them at full price and get nothing extra for it.

Yeah, cause that never happens in retail...

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Hey, I'm not trying to say GW make sensible or rational decisions, I'm just repeating what I've heard given the subject came up.

**Martel732**

There's a reason I never go to GW stores. This is one of them. They don't want to challenge me over using 3rd party grav guns or melee weapons when they don't sell the packs for them.

**Azreal13**

And I'm not having a go at you, just driving the bus through the massive hole in what the Redshirt told you. That's the trouble when you try and spin something that's utterly ridiculous, you can only justify it with something tenuous which immediately collapses under any sort of scrutiny.

**Accolade**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Hey, I'm not trying to say GW make sensible or rational decisions, I'm just repeating what I've heard given the subject came up.

No worries, I wasn't going after you CREEEEEEEEED (is that the right number of E's?), I just get tired of this bs GW puts out, whether it be from the company directly or its managers. They're always so ready to come up with "reasons" why they can't offer games at a better price.

I'm waiting for them to pull the AT&T response* and say "oh, we were about to come out with all sorts of deals and sales, but then the aftermarket sales made it so we couldn't do it. Sorry guys, but its the customers' faults"

*(this pertaining to AT&T citing FCC changes as to why they have to charge their customers so much)

**Talizvar**

The evolution of the GW store has been interesting.

Around 2nd-3rd edition I would see typically 3 red shirts and feel stalked with more "Can I help you(s)?" than I could count.
My first impression was like talking to a Jehovah's Witness when they come to the door: they are here to save you from your boring gaming life.
They were also more than happy to demonstrate their vast knowledge of the hobby, asked for or not.

Around 4th-5th they acted more like the casual guys willing to show you as much as you want on the hobby. They seemed confident in the product and were more than happy to demonstrate any element of the hobby. This seemed like the nice middle ground of sales, it was a comfortable shopping experience, dare I say a positive hobby experience.

Around 6th-7th... like scared rabbits. I walk into a largely empty store and this one guy is there. You immediately get asked what you are looking for. If you say you are "browsing" they assume you are deciding on a NEW army or game purchase and slide into the hard sell. If I say I already play and have armies, you get asked what army you play and they immediately recommend the latest hotness for that army. Usually I have to interrupt mid-spiel and say "I am browsing" and face uncomfortable silence if my time is longer than 10 minutes and the guy is impatiently wondering if I will buy anything. It has that boutique feel... like they are trying to figure out if you are that "right" kind of customer and if not, show you the door.

If the stores are to succeed, they really need two people to function just to acknowledge life happens, people get sick and need vacation.
Two people is also enough to feel... welcoming rather than this one lone guy.
GW is selling models, sure we get that, but these people can sell them by showing how assembly and paint can be fun, that will help with on-going sales.
How can the controlled shopping experience in a GW store be any better than shopping on-line unless you can offer something more?

It is all down to: here are awesome models, you buy them here, these are premium pieces and I am sure little Jimmy 4 year old will do them justice... now run along.

**Azreal13**

You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!

**autumnlotus**

Azreal13 wrote:
You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!

"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"

**Talizvar**

autumnlotus wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!
"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"

Gah!!!
With the rules as they are now it would be a "valid" recommendation.... since little is not!
Damn you people and your logic.

**Selym**

Talizvar wrote:
autumnlotus wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!
"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"
Gah!!!
With the rules as they are now it would be a "valid" recommendation.... since little is not!
Damn you people and your logic.

I'm waiting for the next CSM release, where they'll try to explain that a £50 single-model chaos unit is an excellent addition to an ultrasmurf collection.

**Melissia**

autumnlotus wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!

"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"

"Oh, you play Sisters?" *Awkward silence* "Sorry, we only sell Games Workshop miniatures here. Would you be interested in some Space Marines?"