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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Poe's Law? That if a raven comes in your house , blast it with a 12 gauge before it reminds you of your lost love?

I tried that once. Nevermore.

 Frazzled wrote:
I'll be honest this is one of the craziest articles I've seen in some time on anything.

I thought it was a parody piece. The only person in America that would agree to implementing the above, is the ghost of General Grant, because you would end up with another civil war if those suggestions were implemented!

Seaward wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Nonetheless I still look forward to someone posting this story as an example of what the average liberal wants for gun control.

It doesn't help that the average liberal can't tell you what he or she wants for gun control.

Careful there, generalizations won't help anyone out.

This article is just so sad. I mean I want gun control. Though I maybe a minority on this) But I think the problem lies with there being too many guns or no background checks or you know the mental health of the united states which is terribly affected.

I mean the tool is being used irresponsibly there should be some cutbacks such as a ban on high powered weaponry, weapons that are military grade should always be banned (but they already are, hopefully)

Going door to door taking guns is not a great idea. What about: IF you want to help your community, sell your guns to the local government for a good cause! Or something like that would bring way more positive attention and would be more benefical in the long run.

I think it is incredibly naive of the Daily Kos to do something very..... negatively minded.

 Asherian Command wrote:
ban on high powered weaponry

I have yet to have an anti-gun proponent actually define wtf they mean by "high-powered" firearms.

Please explain which firearms you are talking about, and what makes them "high-powered" in comparison to firearms that are "low-powered".

Extra credit if you can tell me wtf a "low-powered" firearm is, as presumably they must exist as a concept to anti-gun folks.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Seaward wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Nonetheless I still look forward to someone posting this story as an example of what the average liberal wants for gun control.

It doesn't help that the average liberal can't tell you what he or she wants for gun control.

Careful there, generalizations won't help anyone out.

This article is just so sad. I mean I want gun control. Though I maybe a minority on this) But I think the problem lies with there being too many guns or no background checks or you know the mental health of the united states which is terribly affected.

I mean the tool is being used irresponsibly there should be some cutbacks such as a ban on high powered weaponry, weapons that are military grade should always be banned (but they already are, hopefully)

Going door to door taking guns is not a great idea. What about: IF you want to help your community, sell your guns to the local government for a good cause! Or something like that would bring way more positive attention and would be more benefical in the long run.

I think it is incredibly naive of the Daily Kos to do something very..... negatively minded.

As you note, military weaponry is banned or highly restricted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Extra credit if you can tell me wtf a "low-powered" firearm is, as presumably they must exist as a concept to anti-gun folks.

Pistols? Any round that is over 100 years old?

 Alex C wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
ban on high powered weaponry

I have yet to have an anti-gun proponent actually define wtf they mean by "high-powered" firearms.

Please explain which firearms you are talking about, and what makes them "high-powered" in comparison to firearms that are "low-powered".

Extra credit if you can tell me wtf a "low-powered" firearm is, as presumably they must exist as a concept to anti-gun folks.

High powered meaning sniper rifles, anything that could be classified as paramilitary or police armament. High powered rifle is also armor piercing or copper tipped rounds (IE explosive or marker rounds).

Low powered usually means civilian armament, such as an AR Rifle, Shotguns, and Pistols. (As long as the fall into the category of civilian and not paramilitary or police armament.)

Or you can take this definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_power_rifle

Or: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/503

AR-15s are not high powered rifles compared to the M16 or the standard issue of a military unit. AR-15s are civilian weapons. Though they sure as hell look like a high powered rifle.

I don't think I can delve further because my knowledge of guns is quite lacking compared to my compatriots.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
ban on high powered weaponry

I have yet to have an anti-gun proponent actually define wtf they mean by "high-powered" firearms.

Please explain which firearms you are talking about, and what makes them "high-powered" in comparison to firearms that are "low-powered".

Extra credit if you can tell me wtf a "low-powered" firearm is, as presumably they must exist as a concept to anti-gun folks.

High powered meaning sniper rifles, anything that could be classified as paramilitary or police armament. High powered rifle is also armor piercing or copper tipped rounds (IE explosive or marker rounds).

Low powered usually means civilian armament, such as an AR Rifle, Shotguns, and Pistols. (As long as the fall into the category of civilian and not paramilitary or police armament.)

Or you can take this definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_power_rifle

Or: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/503

AR-15s are not high powered rifles compared to the M16 or the standard issue of a military unit. AR-15s are civilian weapons. Though they sure as hell look like a high powered rifle.

I don't think I can delve further because my knowledge of guns is quite lacking compared to my compatriots.

Dude... your post...

I just don't even know where to start...

But yes, your knowledge is very lacking.

Low powered; any projectile that can't exert enough force to break human skin when fired from a range greater than 100 yards?

High powered meaning sniper rifles, anything that could be classified as paramilitary or police armament. High powered rifle is also armor piercing or copper tipped rounds (IE explosive or marker rounds).
-You didn't actually say what high powered is. Deer rifles use larger rounds. A sniper rifle is just hunting rifle and hunting rifles were in fact used.

Low powered usually means civilian armament, such as an AR Rifle, Shotguns, and Pistols. (As long as the fall into the category of civilian and not paramilitary or police armament.)

Again, define paramilitary or police armament. Police still use pump shotguns, the same thing that has been around since the late 1800s. Police still use "sniper rifles" using deer rifle rounds from 1903. Police still use revolvers. Revolvers were first used against the Comanche in the 1840s.

AR-15s are not high powered rifles compared to the M16 or the standard issue of a military unit. AR-15s are civilian weapons. Though they sure as hell look like a high powered rifle.

AN AR-15 IS AN M16! ITS THE SAME ROUND!

I don't think I can delve further because my knowledge of guns is quite lacking compared to my compatriots.

Thats the issue, and this is meant respectfully to you as you are at least attempting to understand and cogently define things. the knowledge of those proposing "common sense" laws is usually nonexistent, to the extent of proposing laws that already exist (Hillary Clinton) or based on how it looks.



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 djones520 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
ban on high powered weaponry

I have yet to have an anti-gun proponent actually define wtf they mean by "high-powered" firearms.

Please explain which firearms you are talking about, and what makes them "high-powered" in comparison to firearms that are "low-powered".

Extra credit if you can tell me wtf a "low-powered" firearm is, as presumably they must exist as a concept to anti-gun folks.

High powered meaning sniper rifles, anything that could be classified as paramilitary or police armament. High powered rifle is also armor piercing or copper tipped rounds (IE explosive or marker rounds).

Low powered usually means civilian armament, such as an AR Rifle, Shotguns, and Pistols. (As long as the fall into the category of civilian and not paramilitary or police armament.)

Or you can take this definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_power_rifle

Or: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/503

AR-15s are not high powered rifles compared to the M16 or the standard issue of a military unit. AR-15s are civilian weapons. Though they sure as hell look like a high powered rifle.

I don't think I can delve further because my knowledge of guns is quite lacking compared to my compatriots.

Dude... your post...

I just don't even know where to start...

But yes, your knowledge is very lacking.

Lets be polite. He's trying. Here's where education begins.

 djones520 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
ban on high powered weaponry

I have yet to have an anti-gun proponent actually define wtf they mean by "high-powered" firearms.

Please explain which firearms you are talking about, and what makes them "high-powered" in comparison to firearms that are "low-powered".

Extra credit if you can tell me wtf a "low-powered" firearm is, as presumably they must exist as a concept to anti-gun folks.

High powered meaning sniper rifles, anything that could be classified as paramilitary or police armament. High powered rifle is also armor piercing or copper tipped rounds (IE explosive or marker rounds).

Low powered usually means civilian armament, such as an AR Rifle, Shotguns, and Pistols. (As long as the fall into the category of civilian and not paramilitary or police armament.)

Or you can take this definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_power_rifle

Or: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/503

AR-15s are not high powered rifles compared to the M16 or the standard issue of a military unit. AR-15s are civilian weapons. Though they sure as hell look like a high powered rifle.

I don't think I can delve further because my knowledge of guns is quite lacking compared to my compatriots.

What is a sniper rifle?

I would imagine that it would be fairly easy to come up with guidelines that would define a "sniper rifle". Could be fairly complicated or it could be something simple as "X muzzle length, these calibers, X magnification scope, mount for stabilizing the rifle". High Power Ammo could be something complicated or something simple as "high power 9mm ammo is all ammo that has a muzzle velocity of X when fired from Y".

We can argue if defining sniper rifles makes sense, or if banning "sniper rifles" makes sense. Same as with "high power" ammo and other stuff. But it would help everyone if we don't act stupid and pretend that's it's impossible to define these things. I'm pretty sure that we all look at the box of ammo to compare different brands to see which one we want to buy.

Just to clarify: I'm not advocating for classifying things, just saying that it would be easy to do and we shouldn't act like it isn't.

Quick quiz for you. Can you tell me which of these are "high powered" and which aren't?

 Asherian Command wrote:
High powered meaning sniper rifles

Any rifle used by a Sniper is a "sniper rifle", or do you mean any rifle with a magnified optic mounted on top? In which case you're calling for the banning of 99% of rifles used for hunting, which apparently is the only acceptable use of a firearm according to most anti-gunners.

More buzzwords parroted by the ignorant.

 Asherian Command wrote:
anything that could be classified as paramilitary or police armament.

Which would be...?

 Asherian Command wrote:
High powered rifle is also armor piercing or copper tipped rounds (IE explosive or marker rounds).

Actual armor piercing ammo is already banned. "Armor piercing" as the left likes to define it is anything that can penetrate level 3a body armor, which is only rated against pistol ammunition up to .44 caliber, making any kind of rifle ammunition "armor piercing" by their twisted definition.

Copper-tipped? So anything with a copper jacket?

You're calling for the banning of virtually all rifle ammunition here, and most pistol ammunition too. Ignorance at its finest.

Explosive ammunition is already restricted, and what is so evil about tracer rounds?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Low powered usually means civilian armament, such as an AR Rifle, Shotguns, and Pistols.

Ok, so if these are all "low-powered", why does everyone like you want to ban them?

 Asherian Command wrote:
I don't think I can delve further because my knowledge of guns is quite lacking compared to my compatriots.

Probably for the best, like the vast majority of your anti-gun friends you don't have the slightest fething idea what you're talking about or what you're trying to ban.

I would imagine that it would be fairly easy to come up with guidelines that would define a "sniper rifle". Could be fairly complicated or it could be something simple as "X muzzle length, these calibers, X magnification scope, mount for stabilizing the rifle". High Power Ammo could be something complicated or something simple as "high power 9mm ammo is all ammo that has a muzzle velocity of X when fired from Y".

The problem is they are not being defined. Even your example could range from - no modern sniper rifles designed to penetrate light skinned vehicles from 1,500 meters to a kid's .22 rifle rifle I shot when I was 8. One does really want to limit only certain carefully categorized items. The other "common sense regulation" eliminates all firearms, as in Asherian Command's limit on "no police guns."

 djones520 wrote:
Quick quiz for you. Can you tell me which of these are "high powered" and which aren't?

Honest question:

When you buy a weapon, do you actually do anything other than look at the gun and go "this one is pretty, I'm going to buy it"?

Or is there some weird mechanism where manufacturers print information on some sort of medium, maybe some sort of paper that is included with the weapon, maybe secured inside some sort of box that surrounds the weapon, a box on which you can print even more information?

Because if your comeback to "define it by these specifications" is "but which one looks like X" then there is no point even trying to have a discussion with you. If you actually look at the information for the guns I would answer "show me the manufacturers stats and I would be able to tell you which ones would be 'high powered' based on whatever arbitrary criteria are used".

Again: if people want to define certain types of weapons then this is something that is actually not very hard to do. I'm not saying that it's something that should be done or that it is really all that helpful, but it's possible. That's how you end up with some of those really weird looking rifles that were designed around "assault weapon" bans.

Thats a trick question. Most of those were used by military units in some period or another.

But I am lacking education of this. So educate me. What the helk is a paramilitary weapon? `

I know submachine guns are banned, but from what I know automatic weapons are banned. Explosives etc.

I do think that automatic weaponry should not be accessible to civilians, ever.

I want to be educated so please educate me

 Frazzled wrote:

I would imagine that it would be fairly easy to come up with guidelines that would define a "sniper rifle". Could be fairly complicated or it could be something simple as "X muzzle length, these calibers, X magnification scope, mount for stabilizing the rifle". High Power Ammo could be something complicated or something simple as "high power 9mm ammo is all ammo that has a muzzle velocity of X when fired from Y".

The problem is they are not being defined. Even your example could range from - no modern sniper rifles designed to penetrate light skinned vehicles from 1,500 meters to a kid's .22 rifle rifle I shot when I was 8. One does really want to limit only certain carefully categorized items. The other "common sense regulation" eliminates all firearms, as in Asherian Command's limit on "no police guns."

I fully agree. It's very easy to define things if we wanted to, but it's a whole other story if we want to talk about defining stuff in a sensible way, and even more so if we are talking about defining stuff in order to restrict things.

 Frazzled wrote:
I'll be honest this is one of the craziest articles I've seen in some time on anything.

It's amazing, it's like they've been reading everything I've said here on dakka

Ahhh, the amount of snark in that "honest question" is refreshing.

What i'm doing D, is trying to show the guy that the way the weapon looks has zero impact on its capability. Everyone of those pictured weapons, fires the same exact round. A .308 Winchester caliber round. A very commonly used hunting round.

There is no such thing as "low powered" and "high powered" rounds, unless you're trying to compare something like a 30-30 and a .50 cal. It even goes to his sniper rifle comment, because one of the most common rounds used in military "sniper" weapons, is the .308 Winchester.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Thats a trick question. Most of those were used by military units in some period or another.

Just about every cartridge in production has been used by the police or military. Is your intent to eliminate all firearms? Yes or No?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Thats a trick question. Most of those were used by military units in some period or another.

What does that matter?

 Asherian Command wrote:
But I am lacking education of this. So educate me. What the helk is a paramilitary weapon?

Any weapon used by Militants. Anti-gunners like to put that into sentences so that the gun they're talking about sounds more evil and dangerous, in order to garner an emotional response.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I know submachine guns are banned, but from what I know automatic weapons are banned. Explosives etc.

Select-fire weapons (machine guns, submachine guns, machine pistols, etc) are illegal in some states, legal in others. Where they are legal for civilian ownership, it is highly regulated and the cost of the firearms are generally in the tens-of-thousands of dollars. Explosives are also illegal/regulated depending on state and have similar restrictions where legal.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I do think that automatic weaponry should not be accessible to civilians, ever.

Many people own and operate them with zero problems. I see no harm in it. Of course you get the occasional accident that gets blown up by the news media but the accident/crime rate where legally-owned select-fire weapons were involved is insanely low.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I want to be educated so please educate me

I'm glad you're genuinely interested. Rare to see such a thing.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Thats a trick question. Most of those were used by military units in some period or another.

Just about every cartridge in production has been used by the police or military. Is your intent to eliminate all firearms? Yes or No?

No.

Guns aren't the problem all the time. People are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alex C wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Thats a trick question. Most of those were used by military units in some period or another.

What does that matter?

 Asherian Command wrote:
But I am lacking education of this. So educate me. What the helk is a paramilitary weapon?

Any weapon used by Militants. Anti-gunners like to put that into sentences so that the gun they're talking about sounds more evil and dangerous, in order to garner an emotional response.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I know submachine guns are banned, but from what I know automatic weapons are banned. Explosives etc.

Select-fire weapons (machine guns, submachine guns, machine pistols, etc) are illegal in some states, legal in others. Where they are legal for civilian ownership, it is highly regulated and the cost of the firearms are generally in the tens-of-thousands of dollars. Explosives are also illegal/regulated depending on state and have similar restrictions where legal.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I do think that automatic weaponry should not be accessible to civilians, ever.

Many people own and operate them with zero problems. I see no harm in it. Of course you get the occasional accident that gets blown up by the news media but the accident/crime rate where legally-owned select-fire weapons were involved is insanely low.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I want to be educated so please educate me

I'm glad you're genuinely interested. Rare to see such a thing.

#GameDesignerthings

Its in my nature. Most Designers are interested in world events it informs our designs or manipulations of a game.

What does that matter?

So they can be banned. Either AC believes that only certain firearms have been used by police, which is just due to a lack of information, or he believes any firearm police could use should be reserved only for police. I believe its the former. The problem is, many believe both, which leads to a ban on all firearms, which they are fine with, and which would require elimination of the Second Amendment to succeed here.

 djones520 wrote:
Ahhh, the amount of snark in that "honest question" is refreshing.

What i'm doing D, is trying to show the guy that the way the weapon looks has zero impact on its capability. Everyone of those pictured weapons, fires the same exact round. A .308 Winchester caliber round. A very commonly used hunting round.

There is no such thing as "low powered" and "high powered" rounds, unless you're trying to compare something like a 30-30 and a .50 cal. It even goes to his sniper rifle comment, because one of the most common rounds used in military "sniper" weapons, is the .308 Winchester.

So let's look at the .308 Winchester rounds from one manufacturer, Hornady:

The bullet weight ranges from 110gr to 178gr.
The velocity at 500 yards ranges from 1437 fps to 1987 fps.
The energy at 500 yards ranges from 573 ft/lb to 1531 ft/lb.

You could post a couple pictures of different .308 rounds and ask "which one weighs more", but we all know that all this information is printed right on the box.

What's the point? The point is that it really isn't helpful to pretend that .308 = .308 = .308 and that it doesn't hurt to acknowledge that in this single caliber there is a 167% difference in the energy delivered between the lowest energy .308 and the highest energy .308 being sold by this manufacturer alone. That's why people might just end up using a different round depending on what kind of animal they are hunting, because some of them are more "high powered" than others and may be too much for smaller game.

And if someone wanted to decide that X ft/lb is the cutoff for "high power rounds" then that it something that can be easily measured.

So are you saying a .308 should be illegal? How about a 30.06? How about a .303 Enfield? How about a .30-30? How about a 12 gauge shotgun slug? Whats evil and whats just fine?

 Frazzled wrote:
So are you saying a .308 should be illegal?

So are you making up arguments again?

YOU JUST CITED IT. ARE YOU SAYING THE .308 SHOULD BE ILLEGAL?

 Frazzled wrote:
YOU JUST CITED IT. ARE YOU SAYING THE .308 SHOULD BE ILLEGAL?

Step 1: go to one of my posts
Step 2: click "filter thread"
Step 3: read my posts
Step 4: stop using caps lock, it makes you look like an idiot.
Step 5: stop claiming that I'm making arguments I never made, it also makes you look like an idiot.

Edit:

Step 6 (for me): stop arguing with Frazzled when he stops making sense.

D... even if an attempt is made to *classify* those attributes... it's still arbitrary... right?

It's really no different then trying to re-implement the ol' assault weapons ban.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
YOU JUST CITED IT. ARE YOU SAYING THE .308 SHOULD BE ILLEGAL?

Step 1: go to one of my posts
Step 2: click "filter posts"
Step 3: read my posts
Step 4: stop using caps lock, it makes you look like an idiot.
Step 5: stop claiming that I'm making arguments I never made, it also makes you look like an idiot.

Edit:

Step 6 (for me): stop arguing with Frazzled when he stops making sense.

You're right. Having re-read it, my bad.

 whembly wrote:
D... even if an attempt is made to *classify* those attributes... it's still arbitrary... right?

Everything is arbitrary. Speed limits are arbitrary. Blood alcohol limits are arbitrary. If someone wanted to decide that 1000 ft/lb is the cutoff between "low powered" and "high powered" rounds it would be arbitrary. All I am arguing is that we should stop acting like it's impossible to define things, especially if they are things that we know about and that we actually look at and which help us decide which pack of ammo we are picking up from the shelf today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

You're right. Having re-read it, my bad.

We need those "high powered" .308 rounds, how else will we kill bears and get those bear arms that everyone is arguing about?