Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

So for the past few days I've been contemplating ways to run Kantor in a list. It seems everywhere I turn people are saying to put him in a drop pod with Sternguards. Now, my actually gaming experience is quite little, as I mainly just collect and paint everything. But I can't help but wonder if there are better ways to use him?

Sternguards are great from dropping in behind enemy lines, taking out a big threat, and then get killed or get into cover and using their bolters, right? Or in the case of Crimson Fists, landing on objectives. I get that Kantor gives them objective secured, but he doesn't have to hold their hand to do it. They aren't really going to be used to fly into assault, especially as they can't on their first turn.

Kantor on the other hand.. He has 4 attacks base, and wields a powerfist. He also gives units within 12" a +1 attack bonus. To me, it sounds better to get him into combat with an assault unit? His armour save isn't the greatest, especially as a chapter master, but if he's in a squad with redundant models, he'll be okay. Right?

Now, I've been trying to figure out a good way to do this, and I keep leaning towards putting him with a Vanguard Veteran squad inside of a Land Raider Crusader. Vanguards get 2 attacks base, +1 for some with their loadout, +1 for the charge, and finally +1 from Kantors buff. Thats 4-5 attacks per man. Add Kantors attacks on top and you're looking at a huge number of attacks.

To make it cheaper (if needed), the Vanguards can be swapped for a normal assault squad. All on foot of course.

Does this sound like a plausible tactic? Could it work? Are there any flaws I should be aware of? Or would it be worth sticking him in a Land Raider with a Terminator squad?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

First, welcome to Dakka.

There is also honor guard as a CC option.

One reason people suggest sternguard is that they are good on their own merits. Kantor just makes them better. Don’t forget that they are still vets with 2A base, so even if they don’t get extra CC attacks for multiple weapons, on the charge with Kantor they still get a bucket of dice to roll.

You can load up a LR as a big old box of pain. It’s not a bad plan, but might run into some issues. Like being a lot of eggs in one basket that might cop a melta hit early or get stuck on a bush. But when it delivers, things are going to explode in a pile of gore.

Like a lot of marine options, Kantor is a bit of an all-around guy. What aspect of him you want to build around is really up to you, and the style of list you want to play. Shooty sternguard or CC death machine. It’s all good.

How about Kantor in a Spartan with 10 assault terminators (5 each) and a GK Librarian with Sanctuary.

The Spartan can hold 25 models and is an assault vehicle. The GK Librarian gives the unit +1 invulnerable save to Kantor is a 2+/3++ and the TH/SS termies are 2++. The termies have 4 attacks on the charge, the 5 LC termies have 5 each).

Now if you don't want to spend half your armies points on that one combination .......

I always envisioned Kantor in the center of a gunline. If your gun line is strong enough, then the enemy would have to come to you and Kantor gives all the marines +1 attack to repel the enemy. Mix in a few guys with serious CC weapons (a power ax here, a power sword there) and your gunline can be a threat to the assaulting unit.

There wouldn't be a need for 10 Terminators so that's the first issue, seeing as you're fishing for Sanctuary.

Now, if you have guaranteed Invisibility, throw Sevrin and Pedro with some Assault Centurions instead. Pedro confers that extra attack, which alleviates their main issue.

Nevelon wrote:First, welcome to Dakka.

There is also honor guard as a CC option.

One reason people suggest sternguard is that they are good on their own merits. Kantor just makes them better. Don’t forget that they are still vets with 2A base, so even if they don’t get extra CC attacks for multiple weapons, on the charge with Kantor they still get a bucket of dice to roll.

You can load up a LR as a big old box of pain. It’s not a bad plan, but might run into some issues. Like being a lot of eggs in one basket that might cop a melta hit early or get stuck on a bush. But when it delivers, things are going to explode in a pile of gore.

Like a lot of marine options, Kantor is a bit of an all-around guy. What aspect of him you want to build around is really up to you, and the style of list you want to play. Shooty sternguard or CC death machine. It’s all good.

Thank you!

Honour Guard would be a good option, but they're expensive. I think it's 85 points just for 3 models...

A Command Squad might be another good alternative. I'll have to compare points and loadout between a Command Squad and a Vanguard Veteran Squad.

My vision of Sternguards is that they drop in the enemy deployment zone, pop off their combi-weapons, and create a threat. Once they shoot, they're essentially sitting ducks because they can't charge. There's a high risk they'll get wiped out. Not really an ideal situation to put the Chapter Master in!

However, with a drop pod down pouring out Sternguards, a Land Raider might be able to make its way up and deploy a nasty assault unit containing Pedro.

DarthDiggler wrote:How about Kantor in a Spartan with 10 assault terminators (5 each) and a GK Librarian with Sanctuary.

The Spartan can hold 25 models and is an assault vehicle. The GK Librarian gives the unit +1 invulnerable save to Kantor is a 2+/3++ and the TH/SS termies are 2++. The termies have 4 attacks on the charge, the 5 LC termies have 5 each).

Now if you don't want to spend half your armies points on that one combination .......

I always envisioned Kantor in the center of a gunline. If your gun line is strong enough, then the enemy would have to come to you and Kantor gives all the marines +1 attack to repel the enemy. Mix in a few guys with serious CC weapons (a power ax here, a power sword there) and your gunline can be a threat to the assaulting unit.

Thanks for the reply!

That would be a huge amount of points, I imagine..

So would you suggest putting him in a gun line with something like a Command Squad?

Consider that every member of the honor guard squad comes with artificer armor, a power weapon, and both a bolter and a bolt pistol. Even with moderate gear the other CC squads are going to be comparable. The HG has a 2+, but no invuln. The other squads have more potential, but pay to get there. There are lots of options if you want a choppy squad. If you plan on rolling up in a LR, there are also terminators. TH/SS still get the job done.

Drop pod lists are high risk, high reward. Remember, not every drop has to be a suicide drop. You can land off a flank, and then roll up from there. But if you land hard enough, you cripple everything in the LZ, so the return fire is survivable. In an ideal world, you drop a few pods close enough to support each other, and blow everything nearby off the table.

I am going to run Pedro in a Land Raider Redeemer with a 7-man Squad of Honour Guard equipped with a Banner. Since the Banner stacks with Pedro's +1 A, the whole group ends up with something like 50 attacks on the charge. Not much is going to be able to survive that. Since they come with bolters, they also have the benefit of better overwatch. I wish they could do something like take Combat Shields though. Storm Shields would lessen their ability to ROLL ALL THE DICE, but a Combat Shield would not.

I know CC isn't exactly their strong suit, but you could also do a melee Command Squad equipped with Storm Shields and Power Weapons. They are more durable than Honour Guard, but cost a lot more. They also have the benefit of taking the Relic Standard.

I modeled my Honour Guard in a way that they can function as Vanguard Vets or Honour Guard, so if I am in a points pinch, they can always play as VV.

Sternguard do gain some benefit from Pedro's +1 A, since it makes charging them not a stellar idea, since they are packing 3 A a piece. The neat thing is that Pedro doesn't need to be attached to them to buff them. So you can run a CC squad AND Sternguard and make charging a bad idea.

One last thing, Pedro has a pretty good armor save, 2+/4++/5+ FNP is nothing to turn your nose up at.

i run him with sterngaurd dudes

There is also the secret option of putting Pedro in a squad of Grav Devastator Centurions. He can tank AP2 with his 4++, and his +1A is going to assist their ability in CC. Gaining Slow and Purposeful allows Pedro to launch his Orbital Strike while on the move too.

Nevelon wrote:Consider that every member of the honor guard squad comes with artificer armor, a power weapon, and both a bolter and a bolt pistol. Even with moderate gear the other CC squads are going to be comparable. The HG has a 2+, but no invuln. The other squads have more potential, but pay to get there. There are lots of options if you want a choppy squad. If you plan on rolling up in a LR, there are also terminators. TH/SS still get the job done.

Drop pod lists are high risk, high reward. Remember, not every drop has to be a suicide drop. You can land off a flank, and then roll up from there. But if you land hard enough, you cripple everything in the LZ, so the return fire is survivable. In an ideal world, you drop a few pods close enough to support each other, and blow everything nearby off the table.

I didn't think about all of that. Perhaps Honour Guard are the way to go. How would you go about making them without using the actual models though? Considering they're covered in Ultramarines insignia.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I am going to run Pedro in a Land Raider Redeemer with a 7-man Squad of Honour Guard equipped with a Banner. Since the Banner stacks with Pedro's +1 A, the whole group ends up with something like 50 attacks on the charge. Not much is going to be able to survive that. Since they come with bolters, they also have the benefit of better overwatch. I wish they could do something like take Combat Shields though. Storm Shields would lessen their ability to ROLL ALL THE DICE, but a Combat Shield would not.

I know CC isn't exactly their strong suit, but you could also do a melee Command Squad equipped with Storm Shields and Power Weapons. They are more durable than Honour Guard, but cost a lot more. They also have the benefit of taking the Relic Standard.

I modeled my Honour Guard in a way that they can function as Vanguard Vets or Honour Guard, so if I am in a points pinch, they can always play as VV.

Sternguard do gain some benefit from Pedro's +1 A, since it makes charging them not a stellar idea, since they are packing 3 A a piece. The neat thing is that Pedro doesn't need to be attached to them to buff them. So you can run a CC squad AND Sternguard and make charging a bad idea.

One last thing, Pedro has a pretty good armor save, 2+/4++/5+ FNP is nothing to turn your nose up at.

The idea of stuffing him in a Land Raider full of Honour Guard does sound appealing, both tactically and fluff wise. As for a Command Squad, I think I'd prefer to keep them as a shooty type squad to accompany a regular captain if/when I use one. How did you model your Honour Guard btw?

casvalremdeikun wrote:There is also the secret option of putting Pedro in a squad of Grav Devastator Centurions. He can tank AP2 with his 4++, and his +1A is going to assist their ability in CC. Gaining Slow and Purposeful allows Pedro to launch his Orbital Strike while on the move too.

I hope I don't sound stupid, but what is 4++? Is ++ a way of writing invulnerable save?

4++ is shorthand for a 4+ Invulnerable Save.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
4++ is shorthand for a 4+ Invulnerable Save.

Ahh, right. I thought so. Just making sure I wasn't missing something with the double +. Thanks

Pedro Kantor with honour guard and banner. These guys ride in a Land raider

Roll a 3 dread unit of Ironclads along side the land raider.

Disembark pedro and guard.

Kill the closest enemy.

Rinse and repeat

I made my honor guard mostly out of the sternguard box, with added bit from the command squad, vanguard vets, a splash of GK, and whatever else floated to the top of my bits box. And a lot more gold paint then I normally use. There are pics in my gallery/blog. I'd post a link, but it's a PITA to do while I'm on my iPad. If I remember I'll come back and edit one in later.

Edit:

(I really need to get a new pic of these guys, don’t have a clean one based and with the banner)

 Nevelon wrote:
I made my honor guard mostly out of the sternguard box, with added bit from the command squad, vanguard vets, a splash of GK, and whatever else floated to the top of my bits box. And a lot more gold paint then I normally use. There are pics in my gallery/blog. I'd post a link, but it's a PITA to do while I'm on my iPad. If I remember I'll come back and edit one in later.

That's funny. My Honor Guard are mostly Vanguard Veterans with Sternguard and Command Squad bits (with two Corvus Hammers to act as Power Mauls). I turned Shadow Captain Solaq into my Chapter Champion (plasma pistol was replaced with a bolt pistol). My squad is assembled, but not painted fully yet.

My squad is 4 Mauls, 2 axes, and sword on the Champion.

 Nevelon wrote:
I made my honor guard mostly out of the sternguard box, with added bit from the command squad, vanguard vets, a splash of GK, and whatever else floated to the top of my bits box. And a lot more gold paint then I normally use. There are pics in my gallery/blog. I'd post a link, but it's a PITA to do while I'm on my iPad. If I remember I'll come back and edit one in later.

Ahh yeah, I just had a quick look through your gallery. They look awesome! I think Sternguard are probably the best option for a kit bash. The torso and legs fit the look quite well. I guess the trick is to model them with both a power weapon in one hand and a bolter in the other so people don't get confused.

In fact, unlike it might seem, you generally don't want to be too killy in melee except for fighting other melee-oriented units or super-heavies. What you want is to kill the enemy in two phases - not one. Cause if you kill them all in one go, you're left hanging in the open. Most likely, very close to his other forces. Not great untill you want target saturation. Besides, it might be an over-buff.

So, buffing an allready killy unit like honor guards is not always a good idea.

A unit that actually meshes well with Pedro is Tactical Terminators. The additional attack they gain does boost them in an area they tend to suffer in. Take a squad of five or so with a heavy weapon (I prefer CML or Assault Cannons) and have some fun. They might have just the right mix of Shooting and Assault to pair with Pedro well enough.

EDIT: I am actually going to try my hand at converting the Dark Vengeance Terminators into Crimson Fists. I like the poses and the squad is what I would run anyway (Terminator Sergeant, 3x Basic Terminators, 1x Assault Cannon Terminator), so I would much rather get the DV Termies for dirt cheap and convert. Lots of filing, green stuff filling, and altering in my future.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
A unit that actually meshes well with Pedro is Tactical Terminators. The additional attack they gain does boost them in an area they tend to suffer in. Take a squad of five or so with a heavy weapon (I prefer CML or Assault Cannons) and have some fun. They might have just the right mix of Shooting and Assault to pair with Pedro well enough.

EDIT: I am actually going to try my hand at converting the Dark Vengeance Terminators into Crimson Fists. I like the poses and the squad is what I would run anyway (Terminator Sergeant, 3x Basic Terminators, 1x Assault Cannon Terminator), so I would much rather get the DV Termies for dirt cheap and convert. Lots of filing, green stuff filling, and altering in my future.

That's not a bad shout actually. I have a squad of Terminators from the Deathstorm box. I was planning on making them Crimson Fists because I hate the fact they have no Blood Angels insignia on them.

 paintatdawn wrote:

Nevelon wrote:First, welcome to Dakka.

There is also honor guard as a CC option.

One reason people suggest sternguard is that they are good on their own merits. Kantor just makes them better. Don’t forget that they are still vets with 2A base, so even if they don’t get extra CC attacks for multiple weapons, on the charge with Kantor they still get a bucket of dice to roll.

You can load up a LR as a big old box of pain. It’s not a bad plan, but might run into some issues. Like being a lot of eggs in one basket that might cop a melta hit early or get stuck on a bush. But when it delivers, things are going to explode in a pile of gore.

Like a lot of marine options, Kantor is a bit of an all-around guy. What aspect of him you want to build around is really up to you, and the style of list you want to play. Shooty sternguard or CC death machine. It’s all good.

Thank you!

Honour Guard would be a good option, but they're expensive. I think it's 85 points just for 3 models...

A Command Squad might be another good alternative. I'll have to compare points and loadout between a Command Squad and a Vanguard Veteran Squad.

My vision of Sternguards is that they drop in the enemy deployment zone, pop off their combi-weapons, and create a threat. Once they shoot, they're essentially sitting ducks because they can't charge. There's a high risk they'll get wiped out. Not really an ideal situation to put the Chapter Master in!

However, with a drop pod down pouring out Sternguards, a Land Raider might be able to make its way up and deploy a nasty assault unit containing Pedro.

DarthDiggler wrote:How about Kantor in a Spartan with 10 assault terminators (5 each) and a GK Librarian with Sanctuary.

The Spartan can hold 25 models and is an assault vehicle. The GK Librarian gives the unit +1 invulnerable save to Kantor is a 2+/3++ and the TH/SS termies are 2++. The termies have 4 attacks on the charge, the 5 LC termies have 5 each).

Now if you don't want to spend half your armies points on that one combination .......

I always envisioned Kantor in the center of a gunline. If your gun line is strong enough, then the enemy would have to come to you and Kantor gives all the marines +1 attack to repel the enemy. Mix in a few guys with serious CC weapons (a power ax here, a power sword there) and your gunline can be a threat to the assaulting unit.

Thanks for the reply!

That would be a huge amount of points, I imagine..

So would you suggest putting him in a gun line with something like a Command Squad?

If he's going to be in a gunline, then he should attack to a gunline unit like devastators or even attached to a tactical squad among more gunline units.

Pedro should NOT be in a gunline. That entirely wastes his abilities.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pedro should NOT be in a gunline. That entirely wastes his abilities.

It does make charging said gunline a bad idea, but agreed. He needs to be in or near combat. I like my Honour Guard, but I am going to give a Terminator Squad with an Assault Cannon a shot. Fewer attacks and wounds, but more durability and higher strength, plus better shooting.

More durability is pretty inaccurate. A 5++ will not save you most of the time. 7 wounds with Pedro tanking the occasional AP2 is better than 5. Plus anything that would destroy an Honour Guard is gonna kill the Terminators, like Grav Cannons.

I would use Kantor to bypass the CAD. You can field him in Unbound with Sternguards (who would get ObSec from Kantor so long as they're not part of another formation) and Kantor comes with a pre-set warlord trait, negating the reroll bonus too. You can then field him with a CC squad of your choice without worrying about taking up a slot somewhere and field what you like, as you're effectively running a single CAD anyways.

EDIT: Casvalremdeikun pointed out that they have to be part of the same detachment, not just the same army. Edited to reflect that.

Using the 1st Company Task Force in Unbound does not allow Pedro to make the Sternguard Since they are not in the same detachment as him. Or am I misunderstanding something.

Ugh I keep reading "army" where it should be detachment. My bad. Still though, going full unbound would still give you essentially "CAD+1"

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ugh I keep reading "army" where it should be detachment. My bad. Still though, going full unbound would still give you essentially "CAD+1"

Yup. Pedro and Sternguard Unbound is a VERY fluffy army.

Ive had 3 games with kantor. 1st game i ran him with 7 stern guard just bolters no combi. Rolled them up in a rhino and used them to take out tactical squads. Specialist ammo works well. No need for combi all the time. And then charge in all have 2 attacks base plus 1 for charge and another from kantor.
The other guy didnt think much of the squad at 1st because they didnt have combi weapons. But he soon realised once that 1st tac sqaud got rolled.

The Other 2 times were small point games of 1250 and i ran a 3 man honor guard squad with kantor in razor. And used them to take out objective sercured squads. Great as they come with power weapons and pistols but also have bolters that re roll on a 1.

Best combo having the 2 close combat weapons so you get the extra attack but you also have the bolter for ranged attack. These are such a great unit. Very versatile.

I have yet tried to run pedro with termys. But this would be a very good combo. U could do it as death star with a land raider. Or you could try and gamble a deep strike. Or having something near buy with a becon/homer for the termys to land on.

I see someone wrote put him with cents. But i can see that being wiped off the board. Remember he does have iron halo but dose not have eternal worrier. Coz careful what you put him with and wat you put him up against. But thats not to say him with cents wont work....

At the end of the day pedro could go with any squad really. Its up to you in the choice of what models you like and want to run.

Pedro with Cents has the added benefit of giving him Slow and Purposeful and the ability to benefit from the Omniscope. He can tank AP2 due to his 4++. Slow and Purposeful means he can drop his Orbital Strike on an unsuspecting unit, meanwhile the Cents unload on whatever they intend to charge. I have never put it into practice, but it seems like it might actually work. If there was a way to give Pedro Relentless, he could do the same thing in a Terminator or Terminator Assault Squad. But since S&P affects the whole squad, Pedro benefits. Assault Cents would lay down a ton of Str10 AP2 attacks at initiative. It is a good way to plow through an MC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have several different options for what I run with Pedro. Depending on what I feel like doing, I leave room for running any one of them. I have the following units:
Terminator Assault Squad (3 THSS, 2 Twin LC) in a LRR
Terminator Squad (Assault Cannon) in a LRR
Honour Guard (PS Champ, 4x PM, 2x PA, Banner) in a LRR
Vanguard Veteran Squad (PM Sarge, 2x PM, 2x PA) in a Drop Pod

I mean to get a squad of Centurions so I can magnetize them as Assault or Dev Cents. They would go in a Drop Pod.

I dislike the Assault Termies since they lack shooting. The Honour Guard lack any sort of Invul, but make up for it with a boat load of attacks. The VV exist so I can run a Gladius with Pedro and not go over on points. They are actually just five of my Honour Guard(I modeled them so they can be used as both). The Tactical Termies probably mesh the best with Pedro as he boosts their combat ability, and shoots well enough.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Pedro with Cents has the added benefit of giving him Slow and Purposeful and the ability to benefit from the Omniscope. He can tank AP2 due to his 4++. Slow and Purposeful means he can drop his Orbital Strike on an unsuspecting unit, meanwhile the Cents unload on whatever they intend to charge. I have never put it into practice, but it seems like it might actually work. If there was a way to give Pedro Relentless, he could do the same thing in a Terminator or Terminator Assault Squad. But since S&P affects the whole squad, Pedro benefits. Assault Cents would lay down a ton of Str10 AP2 attacks at initiative. It is a good way to plow through an MC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have several different options for what I run with Pedro. Depending on what I feel like doing, I leave room for running any one of them. I have the following units:
Terminator Assault Squad (3 THSS, 2 Twin LC) in a LRR
Terminator Squad (Assault Cannon) in a LRR
Honour Guard (PS Champ, 4x PM, 2x PA, Banner) in a LRR
Vanguard Veteran Squad (PM Sarge, 2x PM, 2x PA) in a Drop Pod

I mean to get a squad of Centurions so I can magnetize them as Assault or Dev Cents. They would go in a Drop Pod.

I dislike the Assault Termies since they lack shooting. The Honour Guard lack any sort of Invul, but make up for it with a boat load of attacks. The VV exist so I can run a Gladius with Pedro and not go over on points. They are actually just five of my Honour Guard(I modeled them so they can be used as both). The Tactical Termies probably mesh the best with Pedro as he boosts their combat ability, and shoots well enough.

I've done the Centurion thing with several different HQ's. If they can make Tyberos a lot better, they'll definitely work wonders for Pedro. As for what you have:
1. Only one Terminator needs the LC's, and that's the Sergeant for catching challenges. The Redeemer is also really terrible.
2. Tactical Terminators simply don't bring anything to the party that Pedro benefits from, nor does he benefit them much. The Redeemer is also really terrible.
3. Honour Guard need someone more durable than Pedro to catch AP2 attacks, but otherwise he does pretty decent things with them. The Redeemer is also really terrible.
4. Vanguard benefit from wanting Jump Packs, as otherwise you might as well just buy Honour Guard. The Drop Pod is cool, and the Redeemer is also really terrible.