Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One of my gaming group asked this question and we weren't able to resolve it, so I'm interested to see how far down the rabbit hole Dakka will take it.

The Ranged Support Cadre has a rule called 'Hidden Observers' which reads:

"Hidden Observers: All Pathfinder Teams in this Formation have the Infiltrate and Shrouded special rules. The Shrouded special rule is lost immediately by any unit that moves from its starting location (for any reason), and by any unit that makes an attack with anything other than its markerlights."

Pathfinders also have the Scout special rule, which is lengthier than I would like to quote, but mostly refers to itself as a redeploy, though mentions this part:

"During this redeployment, Scouts can move outside the owning player’s deployment zone..."

The question then is would a Scout redeployment interfere with the Shrouded rule being granted by Hidden Observers?

Deployment does not count as movement, why should redeployment?

Note, deploying from Reserves is a completely different story.

The starting location is reset by the scout redeployment. Any move after the starting location has been finalized is what counts.

Charistoph wrote:Deployment does not count as movement, why should redeployment?

If Scout didn't use the word 'move' I'd agree entirely, but the fact it does, combined with the difference in redeployment distances based on unit type (corresponding somewhat to movement distance) leaves me unsure.

col_impact wrote:The starting location is reset by the scout redeployment. Any move after the starting location has been finalized is what counts.

Do you have a reference to support that? What you're getting at though is the conclusion we came to, that it depends on how starting point is defined.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Deployment does not count as movement, why should redeployment?

If Scout didn't use the word 'move' I'd agree entirely, but the fact it does, combined with the difference in redeployment distances based on unit type (corresponding somewhat to movement distance) leaves me unsure.

col_impact wrote:The starting location is reset by the scout redeployment. Any move after the starting location has been finalized is what counts.

Do you have a reference to support that? What you're getting at though is the conclusion we came to, that it depends on how starting point is defined.

.

It can be inferred from the rules above that Deployment (and Redeployment) is prior to 'starting'.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Deployment does not count as movement, why should redeployment?

If Scout didn't use the word 'move' I'd agree entirely, but the fact it does, combined with the difference in redeployment distances based on unit type (corresponding somewhat to movement distance) leaves me unsure.

It only says move for going out of the Deployment Zone.

So, go go gadget proofreading.

Charistoph's got it methinks. Apart from one instance of the word "move" it's clearly meant to be a redeployment, especially since you're not even allowed to disembark from a Transport (which, if it's a movement in the Movement phase, should be allowed).

Although reading what the formation rules does, it gave me the mental image of a bunch of pathfinders huddled behind one bush using a laser pointer like a bored college student teasing his cat.

Except in this case the cat is probably a humongous mecha with homing missiles and a giant cannon.

Scout isn't a move, so scouting is totally ok.

The only thing that makes me hesitant is that in the formation rules, it says moved from starting location FOR ANY REASON.

I realize scout is not a move, but I don't think that was the requirement of the formation. If you start at point A, and scout to point B... does this fall under "moved for any reason"... it might.. I don't know.

A unit's 'starting location' is where it is located when the game starts. Pregame 'movement' is irrelevant (Scout moves occur during the pre-game).

DCannon4Life wrote:
A unit's 'starting location' is where it is located when the game starts. Pregame 'movement' is irrelevant (Scout moves occur during the pre-game).

There is nothing to support this statement, unfortunately. But then, moving them from your box to their initial deployment spot would be considered movement from the perspective of anything before the Game Begins could be classed as such.

In the end.. regardless of how this plays out.. will you even scout after your infiltrate? I have yet to even need to move them after I do so.

Scouting after infiltrating can allow you to respond to any infiltrating by your opponent.

Jefffar wrote:
Scouting after infiltrating can allow you to respond to any infiltrating by your opponent.

fair enough!

As a side note scouting used to be an actual move prior to at least 6th.

It was changed to a redeploy very recently

I'm not convinced that Scout isn't a move, given it says as much about itself at least when outside of deployment zone. It seems silly to me to accept Scout is not a move if done within but is a move when done outside the deployment zone, especially given the parallel to unit types' movement rates as I mentioned.

Regardless, I think col_impact is onto something more with the 'starting player' reference.

What caused debate in my group was indeed the reference to moving from their starting point 'for any reason', given that Scout is done in relation to a start or at least initial reference point.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I'm not convinced that Scout isn't a move, given it says as much about itself at least when outside of deployment zone. It seems silly to me to accept Scout is not a move if done within but is a move when done outside the deployment zone, especially given the parallel to unit types' movement rates as I mentioned.

Regardless, I think col_impact is onto something more with the 'starting player' reference.

What caused debate in my group was indeed the reference to moving from their starting point 'for any reason', given that Scout is done in relation to a start or at least initial reference point.

If the game has not started yet (aka turn 1) then you have not moved anything from its starting point. Simple as that.

Aside from the question of when the game begins it is clearly not a normal "move". You simply place the models anywhere within 6" of their previous position, you don't consider dangerous or impassible terrain, units that normally get to move faster than 6"/12" don't get to use their special rules, etc.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I'm not convinced that Scout isn't a move, given it says as much about itself at least when outside of deployment zone. It seems silly to me to accept Scout is not a move if done within but is a move when done outside the deployment zone, especially given the parallel to unit types' movement rates as I mentioned.

Regardless, I think col_impact is onto something more with the 'starting player' reference.

What caused debate in my group was indeed the reference to moving from their starting point 'for any reason', given that Scout is done in relation to a start or at least initial reference point.

Difficult, dangerous, and impassable terrain.

Do you think any of those have any effect on the redeployment?

How about jump pack infantry/bikes/jetbikes that are either initially deployed or redeployed in difficult terrain or redeploy into same? Do they take dangerous terrain tests?

Those are all under the rules for moving, if the unit is not moving(and just because there is 1 instance of the word move when the rule used to be a move; doesn't mean it is still a move)

I will also state that if you deploy or redeploy them on a tidewall, then move the tidewall; they will still retain their benefits(they are not moving because the tidewall rules say they cannot and it is the terrain beneath them that moves; just like the stormsurge).