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I really want to ask for my Tyranids to get the love they deserve to field more than Flyrants and Mucolids... but CSM are in a way worse place in terms of gameplay, theme and models.

I would say that Chaos Space Marines need to die and be reborn has five different armies: the four daemonkin of each Chaos gods and a last one for Chaos Renegades that focus more Chaos Space Marines without marks or cult troops. Add a the Daemon codex and, maybe finally, a proper Lost and Damned codex that isn't Astra Millitarum with spikes and we would have the full Chaos super faction. At some point in the future, GW might produce all those books. I think Khorn Daemonkin was a pretty good idea and with some models borrowed from AoS you can have a kickass army model wise.

For a more «reallistic» expectation, I think the Chaos Space Marine line need some new kits desperatly which is strange since this is a rather popular army that has an immense impact in the lore. I understand why Sisters or even Eldar Aspect warriors (especially Warp Spider, Swooping Hawks and Banshee) are still sporting models that about just as old, but for Chaos Marine, that's a bit surprising. A new Chaos Space Marine codex should focus on stuff unique to them. We don't need a «marine with spikes» army. This means a unique varient of Land Rader with Hades autocannon or their weird plasma cannon (maybe even the baleflamer). A new kit for regular Chaos Space marines and havok marine (with heavy flamers and reaper autocanon), new cult troops (berserkers can stay the same model wise) with some new weapons like a morbid grenade launcher for plague marine, a sorcerous lascannon for the Thousand Sons. Drop pods or an assault vehicule beside the land raider would be necessary (I would make some sort of daemon engins that would look like a maulerfiend). New oblitarator and mutilator (new rules wouldn't hurt either). Give daemon engines the ability to fire ordonance weapon without having to snapshot with the others.A Corpse Master as a new supplementary HQ in addition to some minor champion.

Wow, I never realized how brutal this thread would get. Seeing the faction supporters that usually commiserate with one another turning on each other is like watching five starving orphans fighting over the idea of a crust of bread.

This does make me wonder why we don't see more chaos marine support from GW. They're pretty obviously the "main evil faction". From just a purely "were a model company that sells models" it just makes sense to let CSM players buy and use basically any vehicle that regular SMs have. Just sell a big box o Chaosified vehicle vehicle bits and a box of groobly power armor accessories. You can say "oh it's against the lore" but they write the dang lore. They say "this new thing? No we've had that since the heresy" all the time, it seems like it'd be such a minor effort to write "oh also traitor centurions are like centurions but mean."

Probably CSM and Tyranids, equally.

Though they're both way after Sisters, but that wasn't an option.

epronovost wrote:
I would say that Chaos Space Marines need to die and be reborn has five different armies: the four daemonkin of each Chaos gods and a last one for Chaos Renegades that focus more Chaos Space Marines without marks or cult troops. Add a the Daemon codex and, maybe finally, a proper Lost and Damned codex that isn't Astra Millitarum with spikes and we would have the full Chaos super faction. At some point in the future, GW might produce all those books. I think Khorn Daemonkin was a pretty good idea and with some models borrowed from AoS you can have a kickass army model wise.

Nooooo!

Stop making more books! They all need to be in as few books as possible!

 SilverMK2 wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would say that Chaos Space Marines need to die and be reborn has five different armies: the four daemonkin of each Chaos gods and a last one for Chaos Renegades that focus more Chaos Space Marines without marks or cult troops. Add a the Daemon codex and, maybe finally, a proper Lost and Damned codex that isn't Astra Millitarum with spikes and we would have the full Chaos super faction. At some point in the future, GW might produce all those books. I think Khorn Daemonkin was a pretty good idea and with some models borrowed from AoS you can have a kickass army model wise.

Nooooo!

Stop making more books! They all need to be in as few books as possible!

Mammoth books have a tendency of having poor internal balance with units completly disregarded in favor of others. It also kills the concept of Jack of All Trade, Master of None units (AKA tactical marines or standard Chaos ones) in favor of specialists of pretty much everything. Plus considering the number of options for each Chaos Gods and Undivided ones synergy and good thematic become harder and harder. Yes its more money to throw on the hobby, but I think it does produce better results in the long run.

epronovost wrote:
I would say that Chaos Space Marines need to die and be reborn has five different armies: the four daemonkin of each Chaos gods and a last one for Chaos Renegades that focus more Chaos Space Marines without marks or cult troops. Add a the Daemon codex and, maybe finally, a proper Lost and Damned codex that isn't Astra Millitarum with spikes and we would have the full Chaos super faction. At some point in the future, GW might produce all those books. I think Khorn Daemonkin was a pretty good idea and with some models borrowed from AoS you can have a kickass army model wise.

For a more «reallistic» expectation, I think the Chaos Space Marine line need some new kits desperatly which is strange since this is a rather popular army that has an immense impact in the lore. I understand why Sisters or even Eldar Aspect warriors (especially Warp Spider, Swooping Hawks and Banshee) are still sporting models that about just as old, but for Chaos Marine, that's a bit surprising. A new Chaos Space Marine codex should focus on stuff unique to them. We don't need a «marine with spikes» army. This means a unique varient of Land Rader with Hades autocannon or their weird plasma cannon (maybe even the baleflamer). A new kit for regular Chaos Space marines and havok marine (with heavy flamers and reaper autocanon), new cult troops (berserkers can stay the same model wise) with some new weapons like a morbid grenade launcher for plague marine, a sorcerous lascannon for the Thousand Sons. Drop pods or an assault vehicule beside the land raider would be necessary (I would make some sort of daemon engins that would look like a maulerfiend). New oblitarator and mutilator (new rules wouldn't hurt either). Give daemon engines the ability to fire ordonance weapon without having to snapshot with the others.A Corpse Master as a new supplementary HQ in addition to some minor champion.

If anything, Berserkers should get a new kit, (for feth's sake, the "current" one is from the 20th century!), and access to Hand flamers as well as Plasma pistols.
Hand flamers may not be 'uber, but it really fits in with the pure assaulty nature of 'Zerkers, and besides, would look freaking cool! Plus, it would also be nice to actually have enough Chainaxes to equip the entire squad, instead of just half.

Heavy flamers for basic Marines & Chosen.
Kai guns as a new special weapon option.
Give us back our god damned Plasma cannons!
A man-portable stripped down version of a Hade Autocannon (something like 3 shots @ S6/ap4/'Heavy' type)

On the assaulty side of things, Evicserators would be ace, plus things like a Great Chainaxe for 'Zerkers, Dark Blades which are akin to Relic Blades (2-handed, ap2 weapons), etc...

Oh, and please GW, can we have some ing combi-weapons please!?!

The OP basically listed all my armies (with the exception of my SM). My Orks, two Chaos forces and Dark Eldar have all been shafted by GW. The recent codices have all the flavour and charm of a cress sandwich. It's not difficult to see why some people grow to dislike GW, especially when you add this to the list of questionable actions.

I've come to the conclusion - if you're no longer a 'good guy' marine who sells like hotcakes, a good guy space elf who is used as a beat stick by tfgs, or a Gundam fish who loves making *pew pew* noises and feeling superior because no one can reach your gunline - then you will be ignored by GW, because they follow the sales.

Perhaps they want the bad guys to be underpowered, faceless cannon fodder for the 'good guys' to mow down as they forge their narrative. Feels a bit like cowboys and Indians in playschool where the cowboys were never allowed to lose

(As a side note, Khorne Daemonkin is a worthless piece of crud, an absolute waste of time unless you play Khorne darmons/aligned space marines. For anyone who plays any of the other three chaos gods, it's unusable unless you buy a new army. So saying 'oh but you have KDK' isnt cutting it with me)

Chaos needs a model wide reboot, which could be a money maker for GW.

Most of these other armies just need a new book.

As for Dark Eldar not being unique I find that be an odd view. Model wise they are the different than anything on the table and their fluff is also different than any other army. They just need better rules

CSM and Nids are both in relatively terrible shape but I voted for Nids due to their codex being incredibly mono build and lacking any ally potential. KDK (if your into Khorne) and Daemon allies plus things like the Chaos Knight and Brass Scorpion from FW give CSM a slight edge. Don't get me wrong both codexes are a giant dumpster fire that needs a major rules rework and points adjustments.

epronovost wrote:
Mammoth books have a tendency of having poor internal balance with units completly disregarded in favor of others. It also kills the concept of Jack of All Trade, Master of None units (AKA tactical marines or standard Chaos ones) in favor of specialists of pretty much everything. Plus considering the number of options for each Chaos Gods and Undivided ones synergy and good thematic become harder and harder. Yes its more money to throw on the hobby, but I think it does produce better results in the long run.

Mammoth books are as good as the people who write and playtest them (so not much hope with GW's ethos )

The point of combining books is to give people the options without, as you say, throwing more money into the hobby.

One does not need to remove flavour or synergy by combining books. Most core units between CSM forces are the same. Add in unlocking and unique units and army wide USR's and force org restrictions and you have a book that allows you to play almost the full range of Chaos in multiple flavours.

The SM codex loses nothing by combining most of the rainbow of marines into a single book. And it prevents stupid things like daemons having different stats, costs and powers.

I voted for CSM cause of obvious reasons. Honestly though I think we just need a third Eldar, SM, and Tau book that use the DE codex design philosophy aka "How bad can we mess this book up". Removing key units, nullifying others, and overall just making the armies unenjoyable to play.

I'm a fan of schadenfreude if you can't tell.

Did you purchase a book titled "Khorne Daemonkin" and expect it to have non Khorne aligned units?

the_scotsman wrote:
Did you purchase a book titled "Khorne Daemonkin" and expect it to have non Khorne aligned units?

Who're you asking and how did you come to that conclusion?

 Wulfmar wrote:
The OP basically listed all my armies (with the exception of my SM). My Orks, two Chaos forces and Dark Eldar have all been shafted by GW. The recent codices have all the flavour and charm of a cress sandwich. It's not difficult to see why some people grow to dislike GW, especially when you add this to the list of questionable actions.

I've come to the conclusion - if you're no longer a 'good guy' marine who sells like hotcakes, a good guy space elf who is used as a beat stick by tfgs, or a Gundam fish who loves making *pew pew* noises and feeling superior because no one can reach your gunline - then you will be ignored by GW, because they follow the sales.

Perhaps they want the bad guys to be underpowered, faceless cannon fodder for the 'good guys' to mow down as they forge their narrative. Feels a bit like cowboys and Indians in playschool where the cowboys were never allowed to lose

(As a side note, Khorne Daemonkin is a worthless piece of crud, an absolute waste of time unless you play Khorne darmons/aligned space marines. For anyone who plays any of the other three chaos gods, it's unusable unless you buy a new army. So saying 'oh but you have KDK' isnt cutting it with me)

^

"0/10 would not buy Codex: Space Marines again, didn't contain any Dark Eldar units at all."

the-scotsman, are you just making stuff up in your head?

At no point did I say I bought it, I said it was useless for anyone who didn't play Khorne - that kind of suggests I recognise that it's useless for people like me who don't play Khorne.


So what's with your sarcasm? Just looks stupidly misplaced.

Feels like the sarcasm is getting to the point of personal attacks.

Yea you're right :/

As a final vote for myself I'm voting for C: CSM. The Dark Eldar are being sold so I won't mourn the lack of a new codex for them.

IG have issues mostly because of how they aren't allowed to power creep to SM levels. That said CSM need it more. CSM back in 2nd were rules used in addition to the basic SM rules; in third edition those add-on elements were forced to stand on there own. It's only been in the last codex that CSM had any additions that really serve to fill those long standing gaps in capabilities but there are still gaps and insufficient units to make up for not having even half of what SM has.

CSM because they're the oldest codex by far.

 Quanar wrote:
Guard or Nids, they're still rocking 5th edition Codecies. Although all five deserve some lovin'.

Neither of them has a 5th edition Codex. What are you talking about?

Dark Eldar. (Totally biased.)

 Wulfmar wrote:
the-scotsman, are you just making stuff up in your head?

At no point did I say I bought it, I said it was useless for anyone who didn't play Khorne - that kind of suggests I recognise that it's useless for people like me who don't play Khorne.

Stay with that thought for a while and then try to figure out why anyone would want to play Black Templars or Raven Guard from a rules-perspective. Not all loyalists are in a field of daisies and sunshine, as I'm sure BA can vouch for.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
the-scotsman, are you just making stuff up in your head?

At no point did I say I bought it, I said it was useless for anyone who didn't play Khorne - that kind of suggests I recognise that it's useless for people like me who don't play Khorne.

Stay with that thought for a while and then try to figure out why anyone would want to play Black Templars or Raven Guard from a rules-perspective. Not all loyalists are in a field of daisies and sunshine, as I'm sure BA can vouch for.

I'll be brutally honest, I don't get it. You've quoted me replying to someone who made out I said something I didn't. It wasn't part of the main discussion - what are you getting at?

 Wulfmar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
the-scotsman, are you just making stuff up in your head?

At no point did I say I bought it, I said it was useless for anyone who didn't play Khorne - that kind of suggests I recognise that it's useless for people like me who don't play Khorne.

Stay with that thought for a while and then try to figure out why anyone would want to play Black Templars or Raven Guard from a rules-perspective. Not all loyalists are in a field of daisies and sunshine, as I'm sure BA can vouch for.

I'll be brutally honest, I don't get it. You've quoted me replying to someone who made out I said something I didn't. It wasn't part of the main discussion - what are you getting at?

Sorry, should've been more clear, my point was that being a loyalist is meaningless if you're not playing one of the good Chapter Tactics. If KDK isn't allowed to count in CSMs favour, why are we comparing to the best in the C:SM book?

Gotcha.

I reckon it's because KDK is a standalone book while C:SM is one book. Black Templars are just a different chapter tactic with one or two unique units while KDK has taken a lump from two different books and has been granted a host of special abilities. Same for the Ravenguard. As for the Blood Angels, the only thing I think that's stopping GW amalgamating them into C:SM is nostalgia and the history of them being a bit more popular than Templars et al.

In essence, a BT/RG force is still a C:SM force - its a paint scheme difference essentially, While KDK is a very cherry-picked force that excludes the majority of Chaos and Daemons players.

 aka_mythos wrote:
IG have issues mostly because of how they aren't allowed to power creep to SM levels. That said CSM need it more. CSM back in 2nd were rules used in addition to the basic SM rules; in third edition those add-on elements were forced to stand on there own. It's only been in the last codex that CSM had any additions that really serve to fill those long standing gaps in capabilities but there are still gaps and insufficient units to make up for not having even half of what SM has.

Then compound the issue by the fact that GW keeps giving Loyalist scum much better versions of the few unique toys that Chaos get, outside of the Daemon engines...

Oblits & Mutilators? Oh look, Centurions are about 100x better, and cost barely 5pts more in their best loadout.
Close combat Dreads? Here's the Ironclad, which gets better stats, a criminally cheap delivery system, and doesn't randomly go stupid.



It's just downright infuriating...

I'm to the point that a part of me really hopes that Chaos gets it's long awaited due, and we get an Eldar level book, just so we can enjoy a couple weeks of curbstomping all those Loyalist players who still bleet on and on about our OP Hellturkies, Nurgle Bikes, Jugger Lords and Burning Brand DP's ruining 40k. (all the while insisting that grav is masterfully balanced & overall that their codex is barely middle of the road )

It was fun as hell serving up a steaming platter of cheese to all those donkeycave GK players who'd trolled Daemon players for over a year when the current daemon codex was released.
What I wouldn't give to do the same to a few Loyalist players with Tzeentch Marines.

I do feel sorry for all the aforementioned, especially Rough Riders, but CSMs have my vote.

Makumba wrote:
Why csm, in the time my IG got one new codex they got 4 new ones or 5 if one counts demons.

That's not actually possible. There's the 6th edition, 4th edition, 2x 3rd editions, and a 2nd edition one. Khorne players got KDK, then there's the Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion supplements.

IG had 2nd, 2x 3rd edition, 5th, and 6th. IG got the new supplement recently, and had Catachans 3rd and 4th. They also have Militarum Tempestus, Inquisition, and Armageddon.

We shared Eye of Terror.

CSM hands down. They need a full re-write of their entire book, it is so badly out of date and just does not work. Forget all that renegade BS, just do a codex based on all the different ancient traitor legions (DeathGuard, Iron Warriors, Emperors Children, etc, etc) to give the fans what they want. As to whether GW will do that or not is another matter....

The other armies in the list just need a few minor tweaks in comparison.

DaPino wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
Guard or Nids, they're still rocking 5th edition Codecies. Although all five deserve some lovin'.

Neither of them has a 5th edition Codex. What are you talking about?

The current Guard codex is essentially the 5th edition codex with a couple of crappy new units thrown in and a few heavy whacks of the nerf bat applied. In other words we where better off with the 5th edition codex.

I voted CSM, but since I mostly play KDK now instead, I probably should have said Tyranids since I just started playing them. Now I realize I play pretty much the worst armies (except Daemonkin). Why do I do this to myself?