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StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.
can they get relentless?
Yes. They can take bikes to get it. Toughness 5. with 4+ FNP due to their chapter tactics and apothecary. Though there is still a debate weather the apothecary can take a grav gun too.
sounds like it is really good
the Dark Angels command squad can only be on foot, but the RWCS is pretty good itself, with all the plasma
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Not very good. Their efficiency is 9.80. The problem is that they die just as easily to boltguns as any other 5-man MSU marine squad.
By the ways, my rankings never take into account external force-multipliers, such as adding IC's to the unit, the casting of Psychic powers on the unit or other external factors like Markerlights or area-effect special abilities (i.e. Darkshroud's stealth/shroud bubble).
against av14 or t10, TBs gauss is equal to s8
against av13 or t9, TBs gauss is equal to s7
against av12 or t8, TBs gauss is equal to s6
I was shooting my TBs at an av13 Buzzgob Big Mek Stompa this last weekend. They didn't feel like poor anti-tank.
Gauss is unique (like Poison) in that it is a scaleable ability. The tougher/better AV a unit is, the better Gauss, like Poison, performs. However, the lower it is, the worse it performs.
In your example, Gauss hurts vehicles:
against av14 or t10, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
against av13 or t9, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
against av12 or t8, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
against av11 or t7, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
On the other hand, a true AT weapon, like the S8 missile launcher, hurts vehicles:
against av14 or t10, S8 glances/wounds on 6's
against av13 or t9, S8 glances/wounds on 5's
against av12 or t8, S8 glances/wounds on 4's
against av11 or t7, S8 glances/wounds on 3's
and so on.
Yeah, sure, Gauss can hurt armor. That's why I listed it as a Pro. However, the fact of the matter is that Gauss isn't great AT. Against AV10, it is no better than regular bolters. The main reason why Gauss is still a threat to tanks is because you can spam units with Gauss quite cheaply. Then again, you can also spam Guardsmen and if you have enough of them, they will even be a threat to a Monstrous Creature despite the fact that guardsmen are somewhat poor shooters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 01:06:48
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Ffyllotek wrote: How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?
Tomb Blade (as configured above):
Pros:
Gauss
Ignores Cover
Fast (Jetbike)
Toughness 5
Reanimation Protocols
Cons:
Rapid-fire (less shots at 12-24" range)
4+ Armor (In my scale, 3+ is the base)
Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)
Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)
A threat to objectives with their super-speed (though not ObSec).
Awful in close-combat but can tarpit non cc-units.
Tomb Blade = 5.06
Don't forget that they can take an armor upgrade for +3 armor, have twin linked shooting, and every 6 is auto wounding and glancing so they are a threat to any vehicle.
Twin-linked shooting already factored in. So is Gauss.
Tomb Blade w/TL-Gauss, 3+ and Ignores Cover = 5.26
Surprisingly, the 3+ TB is actually slightly less efficient due to a small increase in its cost (which is a 10% increase in its cost).
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Not very good. Their efficiency is 13.07. The problem is that they die just as easily to boltguns as any other 5-man MSU marine squad.
not quite as easily due to the FNP, but i understand
Oops. Forgot about the FNP. Here, let me fix that.
Dark Angels Command Squad (as above) = 12.25
The main problem with them is their high cost. Before any modifications, you are looking at a raw base 245-pts / 15-shots = 16.33 pts/shot.
they're really expensive yes, but with boosted overwatch, relentless grav, and counter attack they are a really nasty squad to deal with.
how would you rate Ravenwing Grav bikers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 00:32:37
jy2 wrote: Against AV10, it is no better than regular bolters.
Incorrect. Against AV10, a roll of 5 will glance and a roll of 6 will penetrate. Bolters glance on 6. Gauss never causes a loss in performance.
TBs are fantastic since they offer a solution to av 12+ and/or cover saves on a cheap mobile and survivable platform. Their potency is directly related to the prevalence of certain targets in the meta to throw them at.
Is the target av 12+? hit it with TBs.
Is the target t8+? hit it wthTBs Is the target a squishy unit hiding behind a cover save? hit it with TBs.
Is the target a skimmer? hit it with TBs.
Against most but not all lists I will have a target that TBs will perform amazingly against.
TBs won't be golden against Gladius lists. Against those kind of lists they will just be appropriately costed. Other lists, either av 12+ or ignores cover will net them value.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 00:48:34
Fast
Grav-weaponry
AP2
Relentless
Toughness 5
Re-rollable cover
Cons:
Short-ranged
Intangibles: (Not Included in the calculations)
Grim Resolve (Stubborn + better Overwatch)
Scout
Hit-&-Run
Has a Teleport Homer
BTW, I made a mistake in my calculations for the DA Command Squad above and have revised their Weighted Cost/Shot Efficiency. It's actually 9.19 and not 12.25.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 00:52:59
jy2 wrote: Against AV10, it is no better than regular bolters.
Incorrect. Against AV10, a roll of 5 will glance and a roll of 6 will penetrate. Bolters glance on 6. Gauss never causes a loss in performance.
TBs are fantastic since they offer a solution to av 12+ and/or cover saves on a cheap mobile and survivable platform. Their potency is directly related to the prevalence of certain targets in the meta to throw them at.
Is the target av 12+? hit it with TBs.
Is the target t8+? hit it wthTBs Is the target a squishy unit hiding behind a cover save? hit it with TBs.
Is the target a skimmer? hit it with TBs.
Against most but not all lists I will have a target that TBs will perform amazingly against.
TBs won't be golden against Gladius lists. Against those kind of lists they will just be appropriately costed. Other lists, either av 12+ or ignores cover will net them value.
You are right, but it is the S5 that hurts AV10, not the Gauss.
I was talking more in general terms with regards to Gauss, such as the Gauss from the much more common Gauss flayers. With the TB's (and Immortals), it is the actual strength of the gun rather than the gauss that will hurt AV10. In any case, I've factored in Gauss, Ignores Cover and the speed and resiliency of the TB's into their Efficiency ratio already and yes, they are a very good shooty unit.
Ravenwing Black Knights with their twin-linked plasma talons, re-rollable jink, grim resolve, hit and run, scout.. And in a RWSF they have the ability to turbo-boost, jink, and still fire at full BS is pretty darn good. RW bikers in an attack squadron formation with an improved BS can also be pretty good... Granted, they're not scatbikes- but I have found opponents tend to underestimate them.
I would like to see the your calculations for the Iron Hands Biker command squad. 4 grav-guns, apothecary, 4+ fnp. most like 2 or 3 in front with storm shields (most popular way to run them). If you rule apothecary can take a grav-gun, then it would be 5 grav-guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 01:59:24
Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car.
NorseSig wrote: I would like to see the your calculations for the Iron Hands Biker command squad. 4 grav-guns, apothecary, 4+ fnp. most like 2 or 3 in front with storm shields (most popular way to run them). If you rule apothecary can take a grav-gun, then it would be 5 grav-guns.
Sure.
Iron Hands Command Squad on bikes: 5x Command Squad - Bikes, 1x Apothecary, 3x Storm Shields, 4x Gravguns - 200-pts
Pros:
Fast
Grav-weaponry
AP2
Toughness 5
FNP Iron Hands Improved FNP 3++ for majority
Cons:
Short-ranged
Intangibles: (Not Included in the calculations)
ATSKNF Very resilient with 3+, 3++ and 4+ FNP.
Iron Hands Command Squad on bikes =
Spoiler:
6.92 Weighted Cost/Shot Efficiency
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/04 06:50:13
This depends on how you look at the question, I guess. Overall I would give it to Windriders with Scatter Lasers due to their mix of resilience, damage output, being able to harm almost anything, mobility, etc for the points cost - nothing even remotely compares, especially once you throw Objective Secured in.
If I'm going off of just pure theoretical damage output for the points and nothing else, I would probably hand it to Wraithguard. A standard unit priced like Terminators that wields frazzling' Destroyer Weapons is kind of hard to go past for this specific category.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 07:02:46
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