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I've just watched this on Netflix and I'm staggered. I'm staggered because of how shocking I found it. If you haven't heard of this series before it's a season of ten episodes, all devoted to covering the remarkable TRUE story of a man called Steven Avery. Many moons ago, Steven was arrested and charged over the sexual assault of a local woman. He did 18 years in prison before being released after his innocence was proven.
Understandably he was more than a little miffed about the shoddy police work that saw him jailed and so decided to sue the state of Wisconsin, but before any payment could be settled, the police are all over him once again for the murder of a woman whose burnt remains are allegedly found on his property, along with several VERY suspicious pieces of evidence. I won't spoil it for those of you who've yet to watch it but, let me just say that...I'm bloody glad I don't live in America because police corruption is rife! Well, actually no, that might be a bit unfair, but if you watch this series it's easy to see why someone would have a low opinion of the police.
Has anyone else seen this new series? If so what did you think?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/22 03:23:39
"How many people here have telekenetic powers raise my hand" - The Emperor, The council of Nikae
"Never raise your hand to your children, it leaves your midsection unprotected" - The Emperor
"My father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic" - Kharn
The media has always loved American stories of police corruption, Muhr, even though it isn't all that common. Police laziness is a bit MORE common, but that's virtually universal, not just to every country but every profession.
As an opinion based on subjective observation: It's actually far more common, from what I've seen in my life, for guilty people to go free than for innocent people to be locked up, based on the way our legal system is set up to protect people from this exact thing. (I suppose that's why it's so hard to get judgments overturned if a mistake IS discovered later.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/22 23:30:40
I love me some true crime books/docs/podcasts, and I'm planning on watching this after I finish Bloodline.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
This is a really well done show. Thanks for the recommendation!
You should check out Paradise Lost, a series of three films produced by HBO about three teenagers charged with child murders in the 90s. There's alot of parallels, and it's also very well done. I think they're all available in full length on youtube.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 12:41:10
For these true crime docs that I watch, I tend to do research alongside or after the movie so that I'm not prejudiced by how filmmakers present their product.
At this point, despite his proven innocence in the rape case, when it comes to the murder case, its going to be a stretch for me to root for a dude that, burglared multiple stores, doused a cat in oil and threw it into a bonfire for fun , ran a woman off the road and brandished a rifle (to try to get her into his car, that part omitted from the docuseries), wrote very explicit and violent letters to his estranged wife, threatening to kill her. And none of this happened in a vacuum, his brothers were each convicted rapists of women and kids, in addition to other documented violent acts. Being 3 episodes in, I'm not sure if that will be brought up, but I hope it is.
He initially claimed innocence in all of the above cases, that the docuseries again doesn't mention, but instead portrays him as concilliatory and resolute good ole boy in the face of the laws punishment.
I think an open mind is needed in these sort of documentaries. A few lingering shots on someone during a "Gotcha!" moment, dramatic music, or just ommission of certain key, small factoids can really steer a viewers opinion into what the directors want.
Looking forward to watching the rest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/25 06:42:01
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
It's interesting, I really can't take anything simply at face value as I know that film makers and media twist stuff to fir whatever view they want to sell. The one defense lawyer was also involved with defending Dahmer? It's also hard to accept what defense lawyers say at face value because all their clients are always completely innocent.
It's a good watch but I'm reserving a hard opinion until I can see the whole thing as well as do some outside reading on the case.
One thing for certain, regardless of any framing, corruption, etc that whole family is full of some very dim bulbs.
So I've seen it all now...The main question the remains in my mind is if the cops actually killed this lady, in addition to framing Avery and his nephew for the crime.
It is more than suspicious that the ex-boyfriend was never considered as a suspect, even though he was given access to the crime scene. I have to admit some suspicion over the murder victims brother, as well. He seems more interested in his interviews in pinning this on Avery and his nephew than in any kind of truth or justice.
Almost wish I hadn't seen this. Murderer running free, while two dudes sit in jail for life the basis of clearly planted evidence and the clearly coerced confession of a low intelligence child. Teeth Grinding madness.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/12/25 22:54:15
I started watching this, very sad story all the way around.
Spoiler:
I'm at the part where the kids lawyers, "special investigator" gets involved, and basically manipulates him in the same manner as the cops did....very infuriating to watch that.
generalgrog wrote: I started watching this, very sad story all the way around.
Spoiler:
I'm at the part where the kids lawyers, "special investigator" gets involved, and basically manipulates him in the same manner as the cops did....very infuriating to watch that.
GG
Yeah, I could not even believe my eyes when I saw that. I'm fighting so many urges for spoilers here. In any case, if you've seen the Paradise Lost films, the same exact tactic was used to pin murders on those teens. Find the most stupid one, and repeat questions over and over and over uyntil his testimony matches your theory. But what is different here is that this coercive tactic was used by this kids defense team in an effort to flip him into an asset for a separate case's prosecution. If you're a defense attorney, is it even legal to coerce your client from changing a profession of innocence to a profession of guilt?
Just am completely appalled.I knew our system was messed up but this takes the pale. The Wisconsin Governor needs to step in if he as the power. The DA that prosecuted the case was as sex and pill addict, and was sued for sexually harassing women, and specifically one that he was prosecuting her boyfriend. Basically seeking sexual favors for him to go easy on her boyfriend....corrupt!!"
Check his law firms yelp reviews...
It seems just about any one that has watched this thing is outraged. It makes me want to write my own governor, and ask him to watch the show to try and make sure the same thing can't happen in Florida.
GG
Just am completely appalled.I knew our system was messed up but this takes the pale. The Wisconsin Governor needs to step in if he as the power. The DA that prosecuted the case was as sex and pill addict, and was sued for sexually harassing women, and specifically one that he was prosecuting her boyfriend. Basically seeking sexual favors for him to go easy on her boyfriend....corrupt!!"
Check his law firms yelp reviews...
It seems just about any one that has watched this thing is outraged. It makes me want to write my own governor, and ask him to watch the show to try and make sure the same thing can't happen in Florida.
GG
None of that has any bearing on the Avery case.
The only thing that outraged me was how one sided this documentary was. Glossing over Steve Avery's previous crimes, never mentioning the other violent sex criminals in the family who might have been suspects. Had they done that, would the Avery patriarch and matriarch have allowed such intimate access? Instead the brother and ex-boyfriend of the victim are focused on in this documentary.
The last ( or second to last, I binged and lost track) episode where the Avery patriarch laments how the Avery name is forever tarnished after this trial made me want to puke. Even if Steven Avery is an angel who happens to be tied for 1st in the unluckiest person alive category with Adnan Syed(also guilty), this guys still raised 2 rapists/spouse/child abusers. feth him and his trash family.
I think its reasonable to think he's guilty. Victims last known location was Avery's workplace, victims body is found in Averys burn pit. Averys blood was found in victims car, at Averys workplace. Good enough for my "beyond a reasonable doubt".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/02 03:07:40
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
And thats why I hate how one sided this documentary was. If we knew from the get go (and we never do know, as the documentary omitts the Avery family extensive criminal past) that multiple men with history of voilent acts against women were living & working on the property that a woman was violently killed on, the entire scope and focus of the documentary would shift.
Instead, its various Police departments and then the FBI that are all conspiring to lock up Steve Avery.
I'll concede that the way the case was handled was flawed, but it got the correct result in my opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/02 03:59:10
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I have my problems with it, but its well done from a production standpoint and incredibly interesting. I love the discussions going on all over the place. The more people know about how our justice systems works, the better.
Just do yourself a favor and do a bit of research and fact checking while you watch it. Its what I do, but true crime is a part time hobby for me, so if it sounds like a homework assignment, don't bother, just keep an open mind while watching.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
generalgrog wrote: I started watching this, very sad story all the way around.
Spoiler:
I'm at the part where the kids lawyers, "special investigator" gets involved, and basically manipulates him in the same manner as the cops did....very infuriating to watch that.
GG
Yeah, I could not even believe my eyes when I saw that. I'm fighting so many urges for spoilers here. In any case, if you've seen the Paradise Lost films, the same exact tactic was used to pin murders on those teens. Find the most stupid one, and repeat questions over and over and over uyntil his testimony matches your theory. But what is different here is that this coercive tactic was used by this kids defense team in an effort to flip him into an asset for a separate case's prosecution. If you're a defense attorney, is it even legal to coerce your client from changing a profession of innocence to a profession of guilt?
Paradise Lost involved the West Memphis Three, who have finally been cleared of charges. The one who had the worst charges has two books out now, I highly suggest them. "Almost Home" is the first one, forgot the title of the second. Author/prisoner is Damien Echols. Tough read. Very heart rending.
If this show is a similar incident (reading some of the remarks above, I thought it WAS a discussion of the WM3, tbh), I'm gonna have to give this a watch.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
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The only thing that outraged me was how one sided this documentary was. Glossing over Steve Avery's previous crimes, never mentioning the other violent sex criminals in the family who might have been suspects. Had they done that, would the Avery patriarch and matriarch have allowed such intimate access? Instead the brother and ex-boyfriend of the victim are focused on in this documentary.
The last ( or second to last, I binged and lost track) episode where the Avery patriarch laments how the Avery name is forever tarnished after this trial made me want to puke. Even if Steven Avery is an angel who happens to be tied for 1st in the unluckiest person alive category with Adnan Syed(also guilty), this guys still raised 2 rapists/spouse/child abusers. feth him and his trash family.
I think its reasonable to think he's guilty. Victims last known location was Avery's workplace, victims body is found in Averys burn pit. Averys blood was found in victims car, at Averys workplace. Good enough for my "beyond a reasonable doubt".
I looked at the link you provided, and I think they did cover most of those issues in the show, that the poster says was "glossed over". I think the point is, that that police department was so zealous in trying to get a conviction that they over reached, because they already tried and convicted those two men in their hearts, before giving them a fair trial. Thus leading them to plant evidence.
None of that additional "evidence" presented in that link you provided, changes my mind on thinking that those guys were framed. It doesn't matter how messed up they are in real life, they deserved a fair trial.
That could be one of my relatives or friends in that position, and I would want them to be treated fairly, not railroaded like what was done.
GG
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/02 15:17:14
nels1031 wrote: And thats why I hate how one sided this documentary was. If we knew from the get go (and we never do know, as the documentary omitts the Avery family extensive criminal past) that multiple men with history of voilent acts against women were living & working on the property that a woman was violently killed on, the entire scope and focus of the documentary would shift.
Instead, its various Police departments and then the FBI that are all conspiring to lock up Steve Avery.
I'll concede that the way the case was handled was flawed, but it got the correct result in my opinion.
So... if you thought that the documentary dropped the ball on Avery's family extensive criminal past...
Why are you suggesting that we ought to discount the DA's actions here?
Just am completely appalled.I knew our system was messed up but this takes the pale. The Wisconsin Governor needs to step in if he as the power. The DA that prosecuted the case was as sex and pill addict, and was sued for sexually harassing women, and specifically one that he was prosecuting her boyfriend. Basically seeking sexual favors for him to go easy on her boyfriend....corrupt!!"
Check his law firms yelp reviews...
It seems just about any one that has watched this thing is outraged. It makes me want to write my own governor, and ask him to watch the show to try and make sure the same thing can't happen in Florida.
GG
None of that has any bearing on the Avery case.
FWIW... I don't care if that family is a caricature of Rob Zombie's Devils Reject... how this event was handled is a gross miscarriage of justice. Especially with regards to Brendan Dassey.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/02 15:37:56
I looked at the link you provided, and I think they did cover most of those issues in the show, that the poster says was "glossed over". I think the point is, that that police department was so zealous in trying to get a conviction that they over reached, because they already tried and convicted those two men in their hearts, before giving them a fair trial. Thus leading them to plant evidence.
None of that additional "evidence" presented in that link you provided, changes my mind on thinking that those guys were framed. It doesn't matter how messed up they are in real life, they deserved a fair trial.
That could be one of my relatives or friends in that position, and I would want them to be treated fairly, not railroaded like what was done.
GG
I think this went well beyond overreach. As far as I know, the county could not afford to fork out 36 million, and as far as I've been led to believe, this means that the $$$ may have had to come from the actual individuals themseleves.
Really, the bhig question is whether the cops were complicit in the murder itself, or whether they just framed Avery for it. I lean towards the latter, but to be honest, if they were capabale of planting evidence, which is a horrific crime to commit, murder doesn't seem like much of a stretch.
I'll say it again. The brother and the ex-boytfriend act sketchy as gak. Especially the ex-boyfriend. The ex-boyfriend should have been a prime suspect from Day 1, but instead he was made a lead in the citizen search parties, which happened to find the car in an ocean of cars in no time flat.
Another thing that struck my mind. In the post-"confession" press conference, Ken Kratz is engaging in pure fantasy when he described the fiction of his murder theory to the public. It is much more detailed and dramatic than anything we find came from Brendan's coerced confessions. Like way more details and dramas....certainly approaching "smelt it/dealt it" territory IMO. Especially given his proclivity for sexual harrassment, it really, really make one wonder.
generalgrog wrote: I started watching this, very sad story all the way around.
Spoiler:
I'm at the part where the kids lawyers, "special investigator" gets involved, and basically manipulates him in the same manner as the cops did....very infuriating to watch that.
GG
Yeah, I could not even believe my eyes when I saw that. I'm fighting so many urges for spoilers here. In any case, if you've seen the Paradise Lost films, the same exact tactic was used to pin murders on those teens. Find the most stupid one, and repeat questions over and over and over uyntil his testimony matches your theory. But what is different here is that this coercive tactic was used by this kids defense team in an effort to flip him into an asset for a separate case's prosecution. If you're a defense attorney, is it even legal to coerce your client from changing a profession of innocence to a profession of guilt?
Paradise Lost involved the West Memphis Three, who have finally been cleared of charges. The one who had the worst charges has two books out now, I highly suggest them. "Almost Home" is the first one, forgot the title of the second. Author/prisoner is Damien Echols. Tough read. Very heart rending.
If this show is a similar incident (reading some of the remarks above, I thought it WAS a discussion of the WM3, tbh), I'm gonna have to give this a watch.
It is eerily similar what investigators did to those boys, and what they did to Brandon Dassey. Like, super-eerily.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2016/01/02 16:39:22
So... if you thought that the documentary dropped the ball on Avery's family extensive criminal past...
Why are you suggesting that we ought to discount the DA's actions here?
Because the DA's misconduct in another case has no bearing in this case, unless you can prove he did something unethical in this case.
What is relevant is that there were other men with histories of violence towards women that lived/worked on the premises. Averys own defense listed his family members and coworkers as suspects, but we are never told that.
Instead we're told in one of the initial episodes that the police have some vendetta against the Avery family because they are different and poor, essentially, not because their residence is home to a few rapists/abusers.
Instead we focus on an exboyfriend and brother of the victim, who were never on the list of suspects.
Instead were are told that its a vast conspiracy involving various police officers, various civillians, and at one point, the FBI, all coming together to pluck Steve Avery out of his home and lock him up.
Does the documentary ever focus on where the other Avery sex offenders were during the time of the murder? Nah. Not relevant apparently.
I think this went well beyond overreach. As far as I know, the county could not afford to fork out 36 million, and as far as I've been led to believe, this means that the $$$ may have had to come from the actual individuals themseleves.
Nope, counties and police departments pay out for lawsuits all the time and it has no bearing on individual officers involved. They even say as much in the documentary.
jasper76 wrote: Really, the bhig question is whether the cops were complicit in the murder itself, or whether they just framed Avery for it. I lean towards the latter, but to be honest, if they were capabale of planting evidence, which is a horrific crime to commit, murder doesn't seem like much of a stretch.
Lets say they framed Avery, why only do it with items that Theresa would have on her the day of the murder? They would've searched her house during the missing persons investigation and had ample opportunity to collect a mountsin of physical evidence if they were inclined to frame Steve Avery. A pair of panties taken and planted, some hair from a brush taken and planted, etc etc. None of that is there. Just items that Theresa would have had on her when she last visited the Avery business, where she was last seen and where her car and body were found.
jasper76 wrote: I'll say it again. The brother and the ex-boytfriend act sketchy as gak. Especially the ex-boyfriend. The ex-boyfriend should have been a prime suspect from Day 1, but instead he was made a lead in the citizen search parties, which happened to find the car in an ocean of cars in no time flat.
Show me the scenario that would have the victims brother or exboyfriend involved in this murder.
jasper76 wrote: Another thing that struck my mind. In the post-"confession" press conference, Ken Kratz is engaging in pure fantasy when he described the fiction of his murder theory to the public. It is much more detailed and dramatic than anything we find came from Brendan's coerced confessions. Like way more details and dramas....certainly approaching "smelt it/dealt it" territory IMO. Especially given his proclivity for sexual harrassment, it really, really make one wonder.
So now the DA is directly involved in Theresa Halbachs murder? Show me the scenario that involves him.
I'm at the part where the kids lawyers, "special investigator" gets involved, and basically manipulates him in the same manner as the cops did....very infuriating to watch that.
GG
Getting the defendant to confess and admit guilt would reduce his sentence. Then he could get a plea deal to testify against Steve Avery and further reduce his sentence. Thats a valid strategy in defense cases. Also, keep in mind that Averys very expensive legal team was prepared to list Brendan Massey as a suspect. The defense teams were not working together, but against each other.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/02 18:01:16
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Q: Lets say they framed Avery, why only do it with items that Theresa would have on her the day of the murder? They would've searched her house during the missing persons investigation and had ample opportunity to collect a mountsin of physical evidence if they were inclined to frame Steve Avery. A pair of panties taken and planted, some hair from a brush taken and planted, etc etc. None of that is there. Just items that Theresa would have had on her when she last visited the Avery business, where she was last seen and where her car and body were found.
A: Manicot cops weren't even supposed to be invloved in the investigation at all after a certain point (before the key and bullet were suspiciously found) due to the conflict of interest with the Avery suit. Manicot police were in possession of Avery's blood, which had been unsealed in the evidence room, and had been tampered with. They were likely in possession of Halbach's car, as suggested by the unexplained call-in from Colburn with Halbach's tags, 2 days IIRC before the discovery of her vehicle. Whoever planted the blood, and much later the key (Lenk and/or Colburn) may have just been playing with what they had access to, since they weren't supposed to be involved in the investigation.
Q Show me the scenario that would have the victims brother or exboyfriend involved in this murder.
A: Easy enough to speculate. Ex boyfriend of a 5 year relationship going back to high school doesn't like his ex's new male roomate, or the idea of her having a male roomate, and the rest follows. Why he was given access to potential crime scenes, since he is a natural suspect (who apparently was never investigated seriously), is beyond me. He seemed incredibly defensive on the stand, and also in a television interview. The brother scenario is harder to imagine. He just seems more interested in putting Avery and Dassey away, as though the concept of cops playing dirty has never occurred to him.
Q So now the DA is directly involved in Theresa Halbachs murder? Show me the scenario that involves him.
A: It is extremely suspicious to me the level of detail he provided to the public based on the Dassey's plainly coerced confession, and the manner in which he delivered it was just creepy as gak. I'm not willing to speculate much further than a gut instinct that there is something fishy about this dude through and through, and while watching the show, I was thinking this well before I was exposed to the fact that he was/is a sex addict, pain med problem, etc
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/01/02 18:44:22
So... if you thought that the documentary dropped the ball on Avery's family extensive criminal past...
Why are you suggesting that we ought to discount the DA's actions here?
Because the DA's misconduct in another case has no bearing in this case, unless you can prove he did something unethical in this case.
What is relevant is that there were other men with histories of violence towards women that lived/worked on the premises. Averys own defense listed his family members and coworkers as suspects, but we are never told that.
Avery's defense team was under special instruction from the judge as to not be allowed to point to alternative suspects other than Brendan. The initial part of the trial would've gone much differently had that not been the case.
Lets say they framed Avery, why only do it with items that Theresa would have on her the day of the murder? They would've searched her house during the missing persons investigation and had ample opportunity to collect a mountsin of physical evidence if they were inclined to frame Steve Avery. A pair of panties taken and planted, some hair from a brush taken and planted, etc etc. None of that is there. Just items that Theresa would have had on her when she last visited the Avery business, where she was last seen and where her car and body were found.
Facing the risk of a second pair of panties or fabric showing up, leading everyone to ask how two of the girl's panties got on the scene?
History proves that whatever evidence was found, regardless of it being a framing job, was sufficient to get a conviction. Asking why it wasn't more elaborate, or as the officer amazingly did, why they wouldn't just kill Avery, does not offer even circumstantial evidence that it wasn't a frame job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/03 00:10:55
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
So... if you thought that the documentary dropped the ball on Avery's family extensive criminal past...
Why are you suggesting that we ought to discount the DA's actions here?
Because the DA's misconduct in another case has no bearing in this case, unless you can prove he did something unethical in this case.
What is relevant is that there were other men with histories of violence towards women that lived/worked on the premises. Averys own defense listed his family members and coworkers as suspects, but we are never told that.
Instead we're told in one of the initial episodes that the police have some vendetta against the Avery family because they are different and poor, essentially, not because their residence is home to a few rapists/abusers.
Instead we focus on an exboyfriend and brother of the victim, who were never on the list of suspects.
Instead were are told that its a vast conspiracy involving various police officers, various civillians, and at one point, the FBI, all coming together to pluck Steve Avery out of his home and lock him up.
Does the documentary ever focus on where the other Avery sex offenders were during the time of the murder? Nah. Not relevant apparently.
No... you can't have it both ways.
What the other Avery's may have been convicted in the past has NO bearings for Steven Avery. You're basically attributing the "Sins of family members" on Steven.
Avery's defense team was under special instruction from the judge as to not be allowed to point to alternative suspects other than Brendan. The initial part of the trial would've gone much differently had that not been the case.
Yeah, thats state law in their parts from what I read. That is weird.
I think the "police framing" defense was only used because thats the only avenue available in a case that was pretty clear cut.
Facing the risk of a second pair of panties or fabric showing up, leading everyone to ask how two of the girl's panties got on the scene?
Alright, we can eliminate that and any other physical items. Still plenty of opportunity to plant other trace DNA.
And depending on what conspiracy theory you put stock into, they would've known she was burnt up along with her things.
Kovnik Obama wrote: History proves that whatever evidence was found, regardless of it being a framing job, was sufficient to get a conviction. Asking why it wasn't more elaborate, or as the officer amazingly did, why they wouldn't just kill Avery, does not offer even circumstantial evidence that it wasn't a frame job.
I disagree.
These conspiracy theories hinge on the officers betting with their very livelihood and lives if they were caught framing Steve Avery. Why go through with it without a mountain of evidence to push your case and protect yourself? Thats damn near suicidal to use the bare minimum.
What conspiracy theory do you believe, btw? Not a zinger. Genuinely curious.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/03 03:21:20
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
What the other Avery's may have been convicted in the past has NO bearings for Steven Avery. You're basically attributing the "Sins of family members" on Steven.
Our Justice system doesn't work like that.
Not sure what I'm trying to have both ways.
I'm not attributing "sins of family members" on Steven Avery, just lamenting how they are never brought up in this documentary. As I've said a few times, it would've changed the dynamic of this documentary, and all of the discussions/theories following it, if we the viewer knew that there were other rapists on the site of Theresa Halbachs murder.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
motyak wrote: Let's make sure we're being polite here
Seems cordial so far.
Where's the impoliteness?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/03 02:58:25
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
