ICV2 Report: Games-Workshop's Half-Year Report : Update with 6 month results, discussion starts pg12

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Ketara**

I just saw this and immediately thought of GW. I'm not sure that's a good sign.

**Ashitaka**

Talys wrote:

Looking at retail, walk into a shopping center or strip mall, and you'll see *tons* of stores with one employee, often the owner-operator or relative. It's just the nature of retail; not every business is profitable enough or busy enough to justify 2 employees, even at minimum wage.

Yes, but you are now comparing mom and pop shops and kiosks to a multi-million dollar international retail chain.
And by me, most of those mom and pop shops have at least two employees.

**Talys**

Toofast wrote:In regard to the bit about hiring people who are passionate about the hobby, I have an interesting anecdote. I spoke to a former GW manager regarding the possibility of getting a job there when he left. He gave me some advice about what to write in my interest letter and how to approach interview questions. He told me to downplay my experience with the hobby and just tell them I love sales. According to him, they have gone away from hiring long time GW fans because of the wide array of negative opinions of the company and games they have most likely been exposed to. GW is afraid someone might get the job that knows about their "spots the space marine" fiasco or the chapterhouse case. The last thing they want is a red shirt accidentally saying something negative about GW. If they hire someone who doesn't know anything about the company or the hobby, they don't have to worry about that.

I applied for the job, wrote a fantastic letter, nailed both interviews (IMO) and was passed over for a middle aged fellow that had never built or painted a model, played a game or read a black library book, and whose most recent jobs included an electronics store and a used car dealership. Myself and the other long time veteran that were passed over for the GW job both acquired upper management jobs for multi million dollar companies within 1 year of being turned down to run a one man GW store. The first manager that left and coached us through the process has a high level IT job now.

Perhaps this is why they're having trouble finding and keeping the right people, they prefer used car salesmen over 15+ year veterans with 10+ years of retail management/sales experience because they've received so much negative publicity over the last 10 years.

If true, it would be really sad that GW is passing over real fans over for essentially professional salespeople. I don't have a ton of experience with GW store employees, because almost all of my model purchases are from independents, but I've yet to meet an GW retail employee who was unenthusiastic about the product or totally unknowledgeable. At the hobby shops that I frequent, the employees that stay aren't paid very much at all, but they remain for years because they're hobbyists and want to work at a hobby shop, or they're relatives of the owner-operator. The ones that don't fall into one of these two criteria are usually pretty short-lived.

It's conceivable that they thought that you were passed over for someone that they thought would stay in the job. You sound like you might have been overqualified, from an HR perspective -- some people are great hires, but move on when a much better paying opportunity comes along, and it's HR's job to identify those.

This falls in a bit with what I was saying before -- most floor jobs at retailers with only a few employees just aren't paid enough to make a career out of it, partly because of rising costs of living.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Talys wrote:
Looking at retail, walk into a shopping center or strip mall, and you'll see *tons* of stores with one employee, often the owner-operator or relative. It's just the nature of retail; not every business is profitable enough or busy enough to justify 2 employees, even at minimum wage.

Most retail stores don't double as community hubs and gaming clubs.

This. The person operating the till in Primark doesn't have to also try to give fashion advice to customers and help them put on the clothes.

Sure, but the person who is just at the til and has no other responsibilities will be paid minimum wage. At bigger stores, 5 of those people are being replaced with 1 person who is slightly more responsible plus a bunch of check-yourself-out tils with computers, barcode scanners, and digital scales. The people who have other responsibilities will make more than that, usually commensurate with the expertise required and the number of applicants who would be successful.

If you work at a lingerie shop, you need to be good at estimating bra sizes, be expert at helping men shop for their partners, and have a good rapport with your customers, and that will probably be worth something more than minimum wage, especially if once you prove yourself, because finding good replacements just isn't that easy.

Flip the coin, a video game store at a mall might require some special expertise (I know a lot about video games!), but it won't pay more than minimum wage because the stack of applicants is legion.

Anyways, in my opinion, a GW store manager should be someone who is passionate about the hobby, because someone who is can much more easily sell product and connect with the customer.

**Joyboozer**

Oh, this thread is so long, I don't have time to read it all, so instead I'll just read one of your posts Talys, I'm sure your views contain no bias and will give me a balanced opinion.
Ah, everything GW is doing is great, nothing is broken! Great news!

**Talys**

Joyboozer wrote:
Oh, this thread is so long, I don't have time to read it all, so instead I'll just read one of your posts Talys, I'm sure your views contain no bias and will give me a balanced opinion.
Ah, everything GW is doing is great, nothing is broken! Great news!

Hardly

But you know, it's possible to have a favorable opinion of Games Workshop (and that they are not going out of business anytime soon), while believing that there's ample room for improvement and people who are disaffected, and discussing that.

**Joyboozer**

You went from saying one man GW stores are crazy to defending one man stores in a few pages.

**keezus**

Talys wrote:
It's conceivable that they thought that you were passed over for someone that they thought would stay in the job. You sound like you might have been overqualified, from an HR perspective -- some people are great hires, but move on when a much better paying opportunity comes along, and it's HR's job to identify those.

Considering the rate of churn in GW employees... if their plan really is hiring less enthusiastic / competent people in hopes that they'll stay with the system - it isn't working out for them.

**Talys**

Joyboozer wrote:
You went from saying one man GW stores are crazy to defending one man stores in a few pages.

No, I think a retail store with 1 employee is crazy. As someone who ran one (my own) in another lifetime, I can attest to it being unsustainable in the long term, because you know, stuff happens.

A retail store with one employee working at a time during most business hours, and maybe a second during special events or peak times, makes a lot of sense. But to get there, you really need 2-3 employees for a store open 6-7 days a week. 1 full time, 2 part time, or 2 full time and 1 part time. Just my opinion.

When I was in high school, the first locally gaming hobby shop that opened in the area (which now employs many full time people and is pretty huge) was a one-man shop, run by the owner. he depended on his regular customers (like me!) to watch the store and the til for him when he had to run out. Obviously, not the best situation

**Joyboozer**

Nope, still crazy. One staff member talking through parents on what buy while any others just have to wait never works.

**HumblePenitent**

I'm sorry, I disagree.

GW stores aren't supermarkets, with the prices they charge a new army, or worse yet, starting, is going to be a considered purchase for many, and going to need parental endorsement in some cases too.

Asking a member of staff to engage with people sufficiently to make a sale of several hundred pounds, potentially, while answering the phone, or ignoring it, or serving other customers, or ignoring them, or taking the deliveries etc etc is just too much. It doesn't have to be busy, what do you do if you're half way through a demo game and another potential customer walks in? Start over and risk the first customer going cold as you repeat a bunch of stuff? Try and engage the second customer who won't necessarily understand what's going on, and may well ask a bunch of questions that you've previously answered? Ignore the second guy and pray he doesn't get bored and leave before you're done with the first?

These are all struggles I've observed in my local GW, and I don't even go in that often.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, meant that for Talys and someone popped up in the middle!

**Talys**

@Joyboozer - which is why I say, 2 at peak times. A lot of times a gaming store is open is dead. Like, the number of people needing help at 10 am on Monday is zero.

If you're an evil north American employer, you split-shift people, and make them come from 11am - 1:30pm, then come back at 4pm - 7pm or something stupid like that (what restaurants do).

Gaming stores also benefit from many customers helping other customers. Often, they have way better advice than the store operators!

@HumblePenitent - Yeah, I understand everything that you're saying, man. I agree, too. Obviously, 2 employees is better.

All I was saying before was that if I lived in a more remote part of the world, and my choice (as a customer) were between no gaming store at all and a 1-man GW shop, I'd take the latter. I'm not advocating (at all) for 1-man stores. Likewise, if I lived in a town that had 1 GW store and nothing else, and it were a choice between more restricted hours and 1 employee, or no store at all, I'd choose to keep the GW store.

If I lived in a town that had a decent independent and a 1-man GW store near each other... well, my comment would be, GW is wasting its time on the store.

**TheAuldGrump**

Talys wrote:
Gaming stores also benefit from many customers helping other customers. Often, they have way better advice than the store operators!

Which is part of where GW ticking off their veteran players can come and bite them in the arse.

I would not go to a GW store - and soon I will have an opportunity to not go to such a store.

But a disgruntled customer base does not limit their gruntling to the store - they are more than willing to air complaints wherever they might roost.

A web forum, say.

And GW is doing a mighty fine job of making disgruntled ex-customers, over the last few years. (AoS being the current prime example.)

At this time, I am not sure that they can dig themselves out of the hole that they have been digging with shovels of ever increasing size.

Specialist Games is a start, but at the prices that are showing up for AoS... it may die aborning.

The price of GW's most recent Not-Troll-Slayers-No-Sir! figures just made a sale for Mantic... the customer could get 75 figures, including two cannon, for just a bit over a third of the price for thirty GW Not-Dwarfs, no war machines. (By 'just' I mean about five minutes ago. And, no, I am not talking about myself.) He couldn't bring himself to paying $230 for thirty figures. $85 for seventy-five was a lot more palatable, even if the figures aren't as... dynamic. (I really do not like the new Fire Slayers, but others are welcome to their own opinions.)

The Auld Grump

**HumblePenitent**

Forgive me, but isn't the topic GW Finanicals? So isn't it more relevant to discuss the one man store from the perspective of how it works, or perhaps doesn't? for GW.

I mean, with all due respect, "something is better than nothing" is already a fairly banal truism as it stands, and if you're in a remote area with few options, given what's been discussed here (or what I've seen of it, it's a long thread to catch up on!) how likely is it for a one man store to be pulling its weight for the company when the whole retail arm seems to largely be a liability?

Wouldn't it benefit GW to condense the stores down into key locations where they can gain sales sufficiently to offer the salaries necessary to attract and retain a team of professional salespeople with adequate management and then find other methods (online and independents) to extend their reach into the less heavily populated areas?

The thing with the sort of staff GW seem to have said they're after is that people of that caliber know they're being sold a pup when it happens, and they're either going to refuse the job or move on in no time at all (whichever suits them) if GW want quality staff, they need to offer pay and conditions commensurate with those people's expectations, or admit that the McDonalds of war gaming, fit a window at the front of every shop and just have GW Kiosks in every half horse town on the planet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gah, someone did again, must figure out quotes!

**TheAuldGrump**

HumblePenitent wrote:
Forgive me, but isn't the topic GW Finanicals? So isn't it more relevant to discuss the one man store from the perspective of how it works, or perhaps doesn't? for GW.

I mean, with all due respect, "something is better than nothing" is already a fairly banal truism as it stands, and if you're in a remote area with few options, given what's been discussed here (or what I've seen of it, it's a long thread to catch up on!) how likely is it for a one man store to be pulling its weight for the company when the whole retail arm seems to largely be a liability?

Wouldn't it benefit GW to condense the stores down into key locations where they can gain sales sufficiently to offer the salaries necessary to attract and retain a team of professional salespeople with adequate management and then find other methods (online and independents) to extend their reach into the less heavily populated areas?

The thing with the sort of staff GW seem to have said they're after is that people of that caliber know they're being sold a pup when it happens, and they're either going to refuse the job or move on in no time at all (whichever suits them) if GW want quality staff, they need to offer pay and conditions commensurate with those people's expectations, or admit that the McDonalds of war gaming, fit a window at the front of every shop and just have GW Kiosks in every half horse town on the planet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gah, someone did again, must figure out quotes!

I think that GW would be better served diversifying their stores, and carry material from other companies, at least those companies that are producing after market or RPG support for their miniatures. (As a not-so-random-example - they would have done well to bring Chapter House on board, rather than trying to sue....)

The Auld Grump - GW started as a general gaming store, way back when, carrying that little known game, Dungeons & Dragons.

**Talys**

@HumblePenitent - Well, yes, the topic is GW financials, and one of the recurring questions is, "Are GW retail stores a good thing for GW?"

My opinion is that GW retail stores are about the best type of advertising that GW can get for its money. In the right location they're highly effective and will introduce people to the hobby (miniature wargaming) that otherwise wouldn't have a exposure. It also presents only the GW side of the hobby, without competition, which is good for GW. They also provide a social environment for gamers to congregate and play.

I do not believe that GW retail stores need to be profitable on their own two legs, so to speak, in order to be a good idea, for a few reasons:

1) Profitability is Deceiving.

Products are sold to stores at about a 45% margin. If a store sells $10,000 a month, the gross profit is $4,500. If it costs $5,500 to make that, is the store a good thing?

If this were an independent, no. But if it were a GW store, absolutely. Why? Because on the manufacturing end, GW makes more than $1,000 selling that product to its own store. It's not as if that $10,000 of product would have sold itself if the store didn't exist, so even though they might lose a little money on retail, they make it back selling to their own retail outlet.

Because GW doesn't break down its actual retail sales numbers, it's impossible for us to know the true extent of retail profitability (or loss). But we can safely assume that sales without GW retail stores would be significantly less, and that would impact both retail and manufacturing profitability. We also know that the cost of sales is about 30% (based on the ratio of revenue vs cost of sales), so we can probably safely assume that GW has another 10%-15% to play in there, not accounting for benefits of economies of scale. This understates the profitability on the manufacturing end, some of those cost of sales are fixed rather than variable costs.

2) Product Visibility and Brand Presence

There is a value to people seeing your stores and signs. It's no different than Nokia stores having more value than the number of phones it sold. Sure, Nokia ultimate failed with cell phones, but there were many years when it made a TON of money.

3) Long Term Customers who Buy through Other Channels

Sure, some people don't like GW models or GW games. But some people DO. Some of them started with their first purchases through GW stores, and then went to independents for discounts, or through the GW website for convenience.

Winning that customer is worth something more than the gross profit on the sale.

4) GW Retail Stores Deprive Competitors of Sales

If someone has $100 to spend on gaming and spends $90 with GW, it means they don't have much to spend it elsewhere. And if they don't, they can't get sucked into another game that they might actually enjoy more.

Edit -- @TheAuldGrump -- I wholly agree that GW could improve retail profitability by selling complementary products that aren't direct competitors (ie not miniature wargames), in niches where the customers are the same folks, but where GW has no interest in expanding into.

**TheAuldGrump**

Talys wrote:
@HumblePenitent - Well, yes, the topic is GW financials, and one of the recurring questions is, "Are GW retail stores a good thing for GW?"

My opinion is that GW retail stores are about the best type of advertising that GW can get for its money. In the right location they're highly effective and will introduce people to the hobby (miniature wargaming) that otherwise wouldn't have a exposure. It also presents only the GW side of the hobby, without competition, which is good for GW. They also provide a social environment for gamers to congregate and play.

I do not believe that GW retail stores need to be profitable on their own two legs, so to speak, in order to be a good idea, for a few reasons:

1) Profitability is Deceiving.

Products are sold to stores at about a 45% margin. If a store sells $10,000 a month, the gross profit is $4,500. If it costs $5,500 to make that, is the store a good thing?

If this were an independent, no. But if it were a GW store, absolutely. Why? Because on the manufacturing end, GW makes more than $1,000 selling that product to its own store. It's not as if that $10,000 of product would have sold itself if the store didn't exist, so even though they might lose a little money on retail, they make it back selling to their own retail outlet.

Because GW doesn't break down its actual retail sales numbers, it's impossible for us to know the true extent of retail profitability (or loss). But we can safely assume that sales without GW retail stores would be significantly less, and that would impact both retail and manufacturing profitability. We also know that the cost of sales is about 30% (based on the ratio of revenue vs cost of sales), so we can probably safely assume that GW has another 10%-15% to play in there, not accounting for benefits of economies of scale. This understates the profitability on the manufacturing end, some of those cost of sales are fixed rather than variable costs.

2) Product Visibility and Brand Presence

There is a value to people seeing your stores and signs. It's no different than Nokia stores having more value than the number of phones it sold. Sure, Nokia ultimate failed with cell phones, but there were many years when it made a TON of money.

3) Long Term Customers who Buy through Other Channels

Sure, some people don't like GW models or GW games. But some people DO. Some of them started with their first purchases through GW stores, and then went to independents for discounts, or through the GW website for convenience.

Winning that customer is worth something more than the gross profit on the sale.

4) GW Retail Stores Deprive Competitors of Sales

If someone has $100 to spend on gaming and spends $90 with GW, it means they don't have much to spend it elsewhere. And if they don't, they can't get sucked into another game that they might actually enjoy more.

Edit -- @TheAuldGrump -- I wholly agree that GW could improve retail profitability by selling complementary products that aren't direct competitors (ie not miniature wargames), in niches where the customers are the same folks, but where GW has no interest in expanding into.

Perhaps even when it is a direct competitor - Paizo is perfectly happy to sell you D&D 5e, even though they publish Pathfinder.

As you wrote elsewhere, it is a 5% that they wouldn't have seen.

Getting back to being a general games retailer, that has its own games as well as that of other companies, might help make the stores profitable.

I am just talking about the stores, there - but given that they are in a position where they are sending out more in dividends than they are taking in as profit, just making the retail chain more than merely self supporting would seem to be a good thing.

The Auld Grump - mind you, Paizo, in many ways, is the Anti-GW.... They have even plugged competing products over their own, in published Adventure Paths. (And sell that competing product through their webstore... they still get a cut.)

**argonak**

Talys wrote:
@HumblePenitent - Well, yes, the topic is GW financials, and one of the recurring questions is, "Are GW retail stores a good thing for GW?"

My opinion is that GW retail stores are about the best type of advertising that GW can get for its money. In the right location they're highly effective and will introduce people to the hobby (miniature wargaming) that otherwise wouldn't have a exposure. It also presents only the GW side of the hobby, without competition, which is good for GW. They also provide a social environment for gamers to congregate and play.

I do not believe that GW retail stores need to be profitable on their own two legs, so to speak, in order to be a good idea, for a few reasons:

1) Profitability is Deceiving.

Products are sold to stores at about a 45% margin. If a store sells $10,000 a month, the gross profit is $4,500. If it costs $5,500 to make that, is the store a good thing?

If this were an independent, no. But if it were a GW store, absolutely. Why? Because on the manufacturing end, GW makes more than $1,000 selling that product to its own store. It's not as if that $10,000 of product would have sold itself if the store didn't exist, so even though they might lose a little money on retail, they make it back selling to their own retail outlet.

Because GW doesn't break down its actual retail sales numbers, it's impossible for us to know the true extent of retail profitability (or loss). But we can safely assume that sales without GW retail stores would be significantly less, and that would impact both retail and manufacturing profitability. We also know that the cost of sales is about 30% (based on the ratio of revenue vs cost of sales), so we can probably safely assume that GW has another 10%-15% to play in there, not accounting for benefits of economies of scale. This understates the profitability on the manufacturing end, some of those cost of sales are fixed rather than variable costs.

2) Product Visibility and Brand Presence

There is a value to people seeing your stores and signs. It's no different than Nokia stores having more value than the number of phones it sold. Sure, Nokia ultimate failed with cell phones, but there were many years when it made a TON of money.

3) Long Term Customers who Buy through Other Channels

Sure, some people don't like GW models or GW games. But some people DO. Some of them started with their first purchases through GW stores, and then went to independents for discounts, or through the GW website for convenience.

Winning that customer is worth something more than the gross profit on the sale.

4) GW Retail Stores Deprive Competitors of Sales

If someone has $100 to spend on gaming and spends $90 with GW, it means they don't have much to spend it elsewhere. And if they don't, they can't get sucked into another game that they might actually enjoy more.

Edit -- @TheAuldGrump -- I wholly agree that GW could improve retail profitability by selling complementary products that aren't direct competitors (ie not miniature wargames), in niches where the customers are the same folks, but where GW has no interest in expanding into.

I think you're completely wrong about item #2.

In the US especially (I'm not very familiar with the UK), GW locates its stores very poorly. They're often in out of the way strip malls or boutique areas. The average customer of the other stores won't be interested in miniatures, and if they walk into a GW its because they thought there would be video or board games. Which is why even a well located store simply isn't very helpful. Their sign is meaningless and deceiving as they're not a "games workshop," they're a model shop that sells models for only two games (3 if your store still bothers to stock hobbit I suppose). GW's complete failure to pursue intelligent advertising means they have to rely on brand recognition with a brand name that is almost irrelevant to their product line. Switching it to "Warhammer" won't really help either, because if you're not already a customer you don't know what that means.

Relying on people walking into your store at random in the hope they'll be interested in your product is about as brain dead a business philosophy as I've ever known. If GW dropped every store they had and instead invested that money with some intelligent marketing firms (although there's no reason for it to be an either / or), they'd get far better bang for their buck in my opinion, and they'd still be able to sell their products online and in FLGs.

I agree the stores provide a lot of other value, but the fact that they provide a tiny marketing benefit is only important because GW fails to market its products otherwise.

**Yodhrin**

Talys wrote:
Toofast wrote:In regard to the bit about hiring people who are passionate about the hobby, I have an interesting anecdote. I spoke to a former GW manager regarding the possibility of getting a job there when he left. He gave me some advice about what to write in my interest letter and how to approach interview questions. He told me to downplay my experience with the hobby and just tell them I love sales. According to him, they have gone away from hiring long time GW fans because of the wide array of negative opinions of the company and games they have most likely been exposed to. GW is afraid someone might get the job that knows about their "spots the space marine" fiasco or the chapterhouse case. The last thing they want is a red shirt accidentally saying something negative about GW. If they hire someone who doesn't know anything about the company or the hobby, they don't have to worry about that.

I applied for the job, wrote a fantastic letter, nailed both interviews (IMO) and was passed over for a middle aged fellow that had never built or painted a model, played a game or read a black library book, and whose most recent jobs included an electronics store and a used car dealership. Myself and the other long time veteran that were passed over for the GW job both acquired upper management jobs for multi million dollar companies within 1 year of being turned down to run a one man GW store. The first manager that left and coached us through the process has a high level IT job now.

Perhaps this is why they're having trouble finding and keeping the right people, they prefer used car salesmen over 15+ year veterans with 10+ years of retail management/sales experience because they've received so much negative publicity over the last 10 years.

If true, it would be really sad that GW is passing over real fans over for essentially professional salespeople. I don't have a ton of experience with GW store employees, because almost all of my model purchases are from independents, but I've yet to meet an GW retail employee who was unenthusiastic about the product or totally unknowledgeable. -snip-

Hate to break it to you Talys, but in most cases that's not passion, it's patter. When I worked at GAME a few years back(very similar attitude to staff to GW's, ie salespeople first and actual knowledge & experience of gaming could count against you if the lumbering oaf of a Regional Manager decided you were too much like the great unwashed masses) I hadn't even touched a Nintendo product since the SNES I had as a wee kid, indeed I'd been a PC-exclusive gamer most of my life, and most of the staff I had were uni students with only a passing interest in gaming if any at all, but it wasn't difficult to BS people into believing we knew what we were on about. It wasn't work I enjoyed, mind you, but it was hardly difficult between the training and marketing briefs from HQ and an hour a week spent skimming console gaming news websites. Feigning enthusiasm for the product is pretty much page one, paragraph one, word one of the "How to be a Low-paid Retail-Salesperson" handbook.

**Toofast**

Yodhrin wrote:
Talys wrote:
Toofast wrote:In regard to the bit about hiring people who are passionate about the hobby, I have an interesting anecdote. I spoke to a former GW manager regarding the possibility of getting a job there when he left. He gave me some advice about what to write in my interest letter and how to approach interview questions. He told me to downplay my experience with the hobby and just tell them I love sales. According to him, they have gone away from hiring long time GW fans because of the wide array of negative opinions of the company and games they have most likely been exposed to. GW is afraid someone might get the job that knows about their "spots the space marine" fiasco or the chapterhouse case. The last thing they want is a red shirt accidentally saying something negative about GW. If they hire someone who doesn't know anything about the company or the hobby, they don't have to worry about that.

I applied for the job, wrote a fantastic letter, nailed both interviews (IMO) and was passed over for a middle aged fellow that had never built or painted a model, played a game or read a black library book, and whose most recent jobs included an electronics store and a used car dealership. Myself and the other long time veteran that were passed over for the GW job both acquired upper management jobs for multi million dollar companies within 1 year of being turned down to run a one man GW store. The first manager that left and coached us through the process has a high level IT job now.

Perhaps this is why they're having trouble finding and keeping the right people, they prefer used car salesmen over 15+ year veterans with 10+ years of retail management/sales experience because they've received so much negative publicity over the last 10 years.

If true, it would be really sad that GW is passing over real fans over for essentially professional salespeople. I don't have a ton of experience with GW store employees, because almost all of my model purchases are from independents, but I've yet to meet an GW retail employee who was unenthusiastic about the product or totally unknowledgeable. -snip-

Hate to break it to you Talys, but in most cases that's not passion, it's patter. When I worked at GAME a few years back(very similar attitude to staff to GW's, ie salespeople first and actual knowledge & experience of gaming could count against you if the lumbering oaf of a Regional Manager decided you were too much like the great unwashed masses) I hadn't even touched a Nintendo product since the SNES I had as a wee kid, indeed I'd been a PC-exclusive gamer most of my life, and most of the staff I had were uni students with only a passing interest in gaming if any at all, but it wasn't difficult to BS people into believing we knew what we were on about. It wasn't work I enjoyed, mind you, but it was hardly difficult between the training and marketing briefs from HQ and an hour a week spent skimming console gaming news websites. Feigning enthusiasm for the product is pretty much page one, paragraph one, word one of the "How to be a Low-paid Retail-Salesperson" handbook.

This. The guy I was passed over for was definitely passionate. The problem came when he tried to run events with custom scenarios he made for example. His lack of knowledge about the rules led to scenarios with bigger holes than the rulebook itself. It also makes it tougher to do an add on sale if you aren't as familiar with the product. Someone who knows all the formations might remind a space marine player they can take a free rhino in that formation so they might as well buy one with that tac squad. Or suggesting the proper washes for a certain paint job. Telling someone how awesome everything in the store is doesn't have quite the same effect.

**Talys**

Yodhrin wrote:
Hate to break it to you Talys, but in most cases that's not passion, it's patter. When I worked at GAME a few years back(very similar attitude to staff to GW's, ie salespeople first and actual knowledge & experience of gaming could count against you if the lumbering oaf of a Regional Manager decided you were too much like the great unwashed masses) I hadn't even touched a Nintendo product since the SNES I had as a wee kid, indeed I'd been a PC-exclusive gamer most of my life, and most of the staff I had were uni students with only a passing interest in gaming if any at all, but it wasn't difficult to BS people into believing we knew what we were on about. It wasn't work I enjoyed, mind you, but it was hardly difficult between the training and marketing briefs from HQ and an hour a week spent skimming console gaming news websites. Feigning enthusiasm for the product is pretty much page one, paragraph one, word one of the "How to be a Low-paid Retail-Salesperson" handbook.

I'm not denying that you could be correct that being overly passionate could work against you. However, I'm not exactly sure what the difference between genuine passion and feigned enthusiasm (by a good salesperson) is. I mean, it just sounds like one person really likes the stuff, and the other person is faking it -- and the regional manager prefers the one that's faking it? Is it possible that the person faking just presents as a better salesperson, and it's not possible to tell that he's faking it?

I would think, by the way, that a GW one-man-shop guy would be considered more than a low-paid retail salesperson -- even though they, by most accounts, aren't going to be considered highly-paid. If you're the only guy there, you'll probably have administrative duties, do restocking, merchandising, and that sort of thing.

The other thing is that every GW store I've been to has had painted models in it. Now, I have no idea where those models come from... I always assumed the staff. Most really aren't super spectacular, but are certainly of a reasonable tabletop quality. But if the guy can't paint models... does corporate supply a cabinet full of painted models? hehehehe

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:
This. The guy I was passed over for was definitely passionate. The problem came when he tried to run events with custom scenarios he made for example. His lack of knowledge about the rules led to scenarios with bigger holes than the rulebook itself. It also makes it tougher to do an add on sale if you aren't as familiar with the product. Someone who knows all the formations might remind a space marine player they can take a free rhino in that formation so they might as well buy one with that tac squad. Or suggesting the proper washes for a certain paint job. Telling someone how awesome everything in the store is doesn't have quite the same effect.

Totally agree with that. Someone without genuine knowledge of the product will be less able to sell gaming stuff. Plus, giving solid advice gets you good, repeat, loyal customers.

**Grumblewartz**

Talys wrote:
Joyboozer wrote:
Oh, this thread is so long, I don't have time to read it all, so instead I'll just read one of your posts Talys, I'm sure your views contain no bias and will give me a balanced opinion.
Ah, everything GW is doing is great, nothing is broken! Great news!

Hardly

But you know, it's possible to have a favorable opinion of Games Workshop (and that they are not going out of business anytime soon), while believing that there's ample room for improvement and people who are disaffected, and discussing that.

Thank you. It is like a breath of fresh air.

**Joyboozer**

Grumblewartz wrote:
Talys wrote:
Joyboozer wrote:
Oh, this thread is so long, I don't have time to read it all, so instead I'll just read one of your posts Talys, I'm sure your views contain no bias and will give me a balanced opinion.
Ah, everything GW is doing is great, nothing is broken! Great news!

Hardly

But you know, it's possible to have a favorable opinion of Games Workshop (and that they are not going out of business anytime soon), while believing that there's ample room for improvement and people who are disaffected, and discussing that.

Thank you. It is like a breath of fresh air.

Reading a report that GW continue to just scrape by doesn't leave me with a favourable opinion of them. I still believe their universe and history to be second to none, but that it's being ruined by poor business decisions. I guess in your world, I just farted.

**jonolikespie**

Toofast wrote:

This. The guy I was passed over for was definitely passionate. The problem came when he tried to run events with custom scenarios he made for example. His lack of knowledge about the rules led to scenarios with bigger holes than the rulebook itself. It also makes it tougher to do an add on sale if you aren't as familiar with the product. Someone who knows all the formations might remind a space marine player they can take a free rhino in that formation so they might as well buy one with that tac squad. Or suggesting the proper washes for a certain paint job. Telling someone how awesome everything in the store is doesn't have quite the same effect.

This right here is my absolute most hated type of GW employee. Everything you ask him about is the best model GW have ever made, if there is something awful you dislike (like the old Nagash), you're just crazy, it's a great model!
Taking it one step further he would tell you how he has played any non-GW game you happen to mention, every edition of it, and he thinks it is a much worse game. (He also might not actually know how many editions of it there were, or gets some of the core mechanics wrong..)
And of course he is happy how to show you to paint like a master... when his own models have clearly been sloppily done following the tutorials straight out of a GW book. It's great and all to teach new people to paint, but don't insist on teaching me anything until you fix the streak marks all over the store's starter models.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Yodhrin wrote:
Talys wrote:
Toofast wrote:In regard to the bit about hiring people who are passionate about the hobby, I have an interesting anecdote. I spoke to a former GW manager regarding the possibility of getting a job there when he left. He gave me some advice about what to write in my interest letter and how to approach interview questions. He told me to downplay my experience with the hobby and just tell them I love sales. According to him, they have gone away from hiring long time GW fans because of the wide array of negative opinions of the company and games they have most likely been exposed to. GW is afraid someone might get the job that knows about their "spots the space marine" fiasco or the chapterhouse case. The last thing they want is a red shirt accidentally saying something negative about GW. If they hire someone who doesn't know anything about the company or the hobby, they don't have to worry about that.

I applied for the job, wrote a fantastic letter, nailed both interviews (IMO) and was passed over for a middle aged fellow that had never built or painted a model, played a game or read a black library book, and whose most recent jobs included an electronics store and a used car dealership. Myself and the other long time veteran that were passed over for the GW job both acquired upper management jobs for multi million dollar companies within 1 year of being turned down to run a one man GW store. The first manager that left and coached us through the process has a high level IT job now.

Perhaps this is why they're having trouble finding and keeping the right people, they prefer used car salesmen over 15+ year veterans with 10+ years of retail management/sales experience because they've received so much negative publicity over the last 10 years.

If true, it would be really sad that GW is passing over real fans over for essentially professional salespeople. I don't have a ton of experience with GW store employees, because almost all of my model purchases are from independents, but I've yet to meet an GW retail employee who was unenthusiastic about the product or totally unknowledgeable. -snip-

Hate to break it to you Talys, but in most cases that's not passion, it's patter. When I worked at GAME a few years back(very similar attitude to staff to GW's, ie salespeople first and actual knowledge & experience of gaming could count against you if the lumbering oaf of a Regional Manager decided you were too much like the great unwashed masses) I hadn't even touched a Nintendo product since the SNES I had as a wee kid, indeed I'd been a PC-exclusive gamer most of my life, and most of the staff I had were uni students with only a passing interest in gaming if any at all, but it wasn't difficult to BS people into believing we knew what we were on about. It wasn't work I enjoyed, mind you, but it was hardly difficult between the training and marketing briefs from HQ and an hour a week spent skimming console gaming news websites. Feigning enthusiasm for the product is pretty much page one, paragraph one, word one of the "How to be a Low-paid Retail-Salesperson" handbook.

I've gotten to the point now where I just assume everyone in retail is BS'ing me

These days I just walk in to a shop and I just be polite to the salesperson who's obviously BS'ing me "hmm, yes, oh, that's interesting, yes, that sounds like a good feature, yes, that sounds like this product would be better than that product" while actually thinking "please go away, you have no idea what you're talking about, I either know more than you about the product I'm looking for and even if I don't, there's no way I'm going to trust you".

I wonder how many sales people are fooled in to thinking their BSing is working when the customer is just being polite

But then I guess there's plenty of customers who are ignorant enough to trust the BSing salesperson.

I love it when I walk in to a shop and the person behind the counter actually knows what they're talking about. Even if I don't know the product I can usually figure out pretty fast if the sales person does. There's several stores I frequent for the specific reason that the staff know what they're talking about instead of just pretending they know what they're talking about and will honestly tell you if they're unsure.

The number of stories... staff telling me one product is better because of a certain feature it has even though both products have that feature

the guy who was confidently trying to sell me an acrylic thinner to mix with a lacquer paint because they weren't labelled as such but they were next to each other in the catalog

The salesperson confidently telling me one product is faster than another when they obviously have no fething idea

I'm sure that's part of why online sales has become so popular, people like me who would rather not deal with ignorant staff selling me on features they only just read on the box 5 seconds earlier

**Herzlos**

pox wrote:
Hell, if working a second guy 20 hours a week is too much, then just open the other two days a week, that's only 14 hours.

I think their main rationale is that the customers are going to buy the stuff anyway, so if they only open 5 days, the customers that would visit on the 2 days its closed will just come in another day. Just like how they thought that killing specialist games would just move the money into 40K.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:

Looking at retail, walk into a shopping center or strip mall, and you'll see *tons* of stores with one employee, often the owner-operator or relative. It's just the nature of retail; not every business is profitable enough or busy enough to justify 2 employees, even at minimum wage.

In the UK at least, the only single employee places I've seen tend to be fleamarkets, kiosks or booths, and even then they tend to be in clusters to cover for each other.
I honestly can't think of any real "retail store" that has less than 2 employees. Even the little corner newsagents here tend to have 2 staff.

On the stores themselves, I think in correct location and the correct size, they could be an asset. But they are currently opening up stores that are too small, in locations that are too hidden, and further obfuscating them by changing the name.

The most prominent store here is in Edinburgh, on the main corner of one of the busiest streets in the city (between the train station and the castle), it's been there for about 20 years (I was at the opening) and is practically unmissable, but it recently renamed to "Warhammer" with the most generic sign writing possible, and I (a 20 year veteran) walked right past it trying to find it one day. They opened another one in a mall where my wife works. In an alley outside that's mostly pubs, again bland sign, and again, despite knowing it was there and actively looking for it, I managed to walk past it.

The other problem is the stock; they barely have anything in stock these days, so I hit a point years ago where all the stuff I wanted was web only, so there was pretty much no reason to visit. What they need to do is have a much fuller inventory available in store (even if the manager needs to go to the stock room for it), and to stock anything tangentially related to GW - the FFG games, vouchers for the mobile phone games. Make it a place that always has something new to tempt me in, or at least make it big enough for me to go for some gaming.

Compared to my FLGS 1 which has a wall of blisters (mostly Reaper), the GW store is a barren wasteland, compared to my FLGS 2 which has 3x as many permanent tables, and a cafe, it's a hole in the wall closet. Even ignoring the 10% discounts, there's literally no reason for me to visit the GW over the FLGS, since they all carry identical GW stock.

**Kilkrazy**

GW's Cost of Goods (which basically is the same as Cost of Sales) is about 20%. GW has stated this specifically in their reports because a few years ago they stated it as about 25% and it's a major achievement to get it down such a lot. This reduction is an important cause of their profitability.

In regards to shop locations, I think GW in the UK are benefiting from word of mouth to inform potential players about the games, then people look up their local GW shop to go and look at stuff. It isn't a matter of people wandering by at random. However, the shops need to be close to transport facilities and schools to allow youngsters to get there easily. Most shops I am familiar with fit this profile, though they tend to be fairly small and contain three tables and a basic selection of stock.

The managers need to be familiar with the stock, with the rules to run demo games, and also with painting techniques to help youngsters to assemble and paint figures. This is all necessary for selling the goods. They need to be elder brothers or uncles, to the young lads, and also mates to the older studenty types, and capable of being pleasant to the old codgers like me.

This is a fairly difficult set of skills and knowledge on top of basic retail operations.

**Herzlos**

Kilkrazy wrote:
GW's Cost of Goods (which basically is the same as Cost of Sales) is about 20%. GW has stated this specifically in their reports because a few years ago they stated it as about 25% and it's a major achievement to get it down such a lot. This reduction is an important cause of their profitability.

Can't they just do that by boosting prices by about 20%? Which they've easily done on new releases since 2014.

**Talys**

Kilkrazy wrote:
GW's Cost of Goods (which basically is the same as Cost of Sales) is about 20%. GW has stated this specifically in their reports because a few years ago they stated it as about 25% and it's a major achievement to get it down such a lot. This reduction is an important cause of their profitability.

In the 29 Nov 2015 statements, the stated Revenue is 55.3k, and cost of sales is 16.8k for a gross profit of 38.5k. That's 30.4%, and the previous full year is 31% (37k / 119k).

While cost of sales and cost of goods are often used interchangeably, and *neither* is defined in GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles), most financial and management accountants expect companies that sell physical products to state cost of goods as raw materials, manufacturing, storage, transportation, and direct labor. On the other hand, cost of sales is generally expected to be seen on financial statements of service-based companies. The types of inputs often include direct selling costs like commissions, which in some industries can be very significant.

Being unfamiliar with UK financials, I'm happy to concede that I'm unfamiliar with regional nuances. On the other hand, looking at the "consolidated income statement", it's broken down in an EXTREMELY condensed form:

Revenue - Cost of Sales = Gross Profit + Operating Expenses + Other Income Operating = Operating Profit.

Even though the cost of sales is 30.4%, because the financials are so ambiguous, the traditional CoGS, where we're measuring the cost to manufacture goods, could actually be closer to 20%. To further complicate things, the Cost of Sales blends GW store sales and channel sales; in the latter, there's presumably a greater cost to the sale as a line item. That is, sales reps' commissions that are probably captured as direct selling, where as regional managers of GW stores are probably paid on a structure that has more of a fixed salary with some kind of performance bonus scheme.

In any case, we can probably assume that each additional dollar GW makes will cost them not more than 30.4%, which gives GW, at least another 25% to play with, versus traditional stores, which must remain profitable based on a 45% discount (or 55% cost of goods).

You are entirely correct that it's possible that the cost of goods for GW stores is closer to 20% (probably not quite, because freight is probably still significant, and there are variable selling costs at the store level too, such as performance bonuses, I assume), giving them even more leeway.

Edit: errors, ty to Ashitaka for pointing out

**Kilkrazy**

I am going by GW's own financial statements of their COGS figures.

Herzlos wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
GW's Cost of Goods (which basically is the same as Cost of Sales) is about 20%. GW has stated this specifically in their reports because a few years ago they stated it as about 25% and it's a major achievement to get it down such a lot. This reduction is an important cause of their profitability.

Can't they just do that by boosting prices by about 20%? Which they've easily done on new releases since 2014.

That's not how it is calculated. The Cost of Goods is to do with the manufacturing costs and amount of inventory. GW are saying they have reduced their manufacturing costs and/or amount of inventory held. We know GW have more or less given up on metal, have reduced the amount of stock held in shops, have manufactured more stuff in China (printing and terrain kits), and we also know that polystyrene moulding technology is a lot cheaper now than 10 years ago.

**Baragash**

There's a very simple reason why 1-man stores don't work, it's partially the fault of GW's BS internal culture, and partially the fault of the trial store managers.

When they started trialing it, it didn't work. Unfortunately, the trial managers didn't suck it up and suffer during the trial - which is what you want to happen, they took the initiative and worked out among themselves how to make it work. When they had the end-of-trial review and tried to feed back on how the initial model didn't work they were told "not to be negative and be team players" to quote the trial manager I know, and the defective model is the one that got implemented.

EDIT: cost of goods, yes, what KK said.

Also though, if sales volume has fallen significantly to the point where they can use the cheaper aluminium moulds instead of steel ones then that's not necessarily a desirable saving.