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Hi there I'm pretty new to the hobby and just moved to Toronto (I used to love about 18 hours north of Toronto) and I have some eldar stuff from my army back in the day, now I've been out of it for about 4-5 years so first thing I picked up was the book and tried to make my army list best I could, about 1000pts. I show up to a local store and no on will play me and everyone just kept saying ""oh you play eldar, no thank you" like idk about anyone else but I think that's pretty dumb to refuse a game, what's wron with eldar.? I can't tell you since I don't get to play

Primarily because of that scatter laser special rule, and the addition of strength D weapons to a non-apocalypse codex.

They are a very powerful codex, with very powerful detachments and formations. When playing locally, pick up games will be hard to find until you are seen to not be ''Just another Scatbike spammer''.

Many, many people have had very unfun games against Eldar due to how ridiculously powerful Scatterlaser toting bikers, Wraithknights and Wraithspiders are. Those scars don't heal quickly, and while I know it's prejudice, it's going to have to be your job to alleviate the locals fears.

Take Banshee's, Vipers, Scorpions, Melee Autachs and Wraithblades. Don't take more then 2 units of anything. Play Nice. Then, once you've intragrated yourself into a group of people who know you are a Nice Guy people will offer you competitive games where you can bring out everything.

When the Eldar got a new codex it is apparently pretty good and relatively powerful, people shout top tier a lot but I don't play Eldar so can't really comment with any authority.

Do you use a lot of jetbikes with scatter lasers, vast amounts of warlocks? If so, that will probably get a few peoples knickers in a twist.

PacificRimJob wrote:
first thing I picked up was the book and tried to make my army list best I could, about 1000pts.

This is a problem. Your list might be too competive to others.

I have 10 bikes total 3 cannons 1 for every 3 dudes, 2 falcons a farseer and 30 guardians

Some people are under the misapprehension that points balance the game. GW did a poor job and some players insist on exploiting their mistakes.

If you accept players balance the game, Eldar is fine. Different attitude though as you can't claim you're playing too competitively if you handicap armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally your list sounds like a lot of fun. No worries.

Tho I went to a GW the other day in Toronto and saw a all bike army I there display case, it looked super cool. I'm sure it's hard to beat like you guys say, but I love the look, a lot more then my old ones :(

Sorry to hear that Toronto's developed that mentality. The quality of "pick up games" continues to go downhill it seems... because no one should be refused a game just because they play a specific faction. They should have the decency of looking at lists first.

Generally, Eldar hate occurred because they are very high-tier right now. They objectively have no truly "bad" units, with even their less-than-best units being rock solid options. That wouldn't be so bad if the Eldar didn't also have so many "best" units too! The crux of this comes to 2 units;

!#1 - The Wraith Knight. Didn't exist 4-5 years ago. It's a bigger-er Wraithlord that's a Gargantuan Creature. You'd have expected this thing to be in Apocalypse/Mega-Battles ages ago, but it's technically a part of standard play now. Lots of people dislike that fact as it is, but the Wraith Knight takes the cake for best Super Heavy in the game right now. It's a low cost compared to most Super Heavies, yet is able to win against most Super heavies.

#2 - The Scatter Bike. Good save, amaze-balls speed, TROOPS, and each carries a heavy weapon. They do everything, and do that well. Their only real weakness is a low leadership score.


This isn't a problem in tournament play of course, because most of the current meta makes Wraithknights and Scatterbikes not great choices (Grav weapons destroy Wraithknights, and Tau demolish Scatbikes). But in anything less than a super-powered tourney list, the Eldar are rather dominating and people find that to be an unfun game.

My suggestion, join some forums for people local to you, and set up games where you tell people you're limiting yourself to no Wraithknights and one heavy gun per 3 bikes. I myself play Eldar and haven't had any problems, but that may also be because I play primarily Harlequins with Eldar reinforcements.

Post you list here maybe so dakka can judge how rude or not rude you are XD

I am sorry you happen to start up during a dark time for Eldar players. I don't think anyone should refuse a game based on what army your opponent has, but people do.

Maybe you should change your approach to be one of "hey, I haven't played 40k in 5 years, would you mind doing a learning game with me?" and after that point, I think only the worst humans will refuse to play a game with you regardless of what army you have.

Cause when others get nerfs and sidegrades, eldar get scatbikes, free S: D and 295 GMC.
And than the rest of the codexes have to adjust to them. And once again, a painful power creep cycle begins. Some like sm get in in months, others like orks or dark eldar get it in 5-7 years. And than the new eldar book gets released.
It was in 6-th, it was in 7-th. There was basicaly 1 edition where eldar weren't broken - 5-th one.

Eldar were a reason 4-th was called an edition of god falcons. They, alongside tau, were a reason why 6-th lost tons of players and the player base hasn't recuperated yet...and probably never will. Eldar, gravguns and decurion are a reason 7-th gets bad rep.

PacificRimJob wrote:
I have 10 bikes total 3 cannons 1 for every 3 dudes, 2 falcons a farseer and 30 guardians

Eldar lists can be cheesy as all get out, your’s is not.

"I’ve got some bikes, but am sticking with the old 1-in-3 rule for the heavy weapons”
“No wraiths, no D. Heck, no aspect warriors!”
“I’m using Falcons, not Wave Serpents”
“I don’t have the stuff for the new broken formations, so I’m just building with a CAD”

It’s harder to make a “fun” list then a competitive/broken one with Eldar these days. Yours looks like it should be fine. You just have a lot of bias and hate from all the tools out there poisoning the water for you. But as with most prejudice, a little education and understanding should help clear things up. Get to know the locals, show them your list/models, let them know that you aren’t TFG. If they/you are willing, you might want to offer an army swap, and them them play your force.

 koooaei wrote:
Cause when others get nerfs and sidegrades, eldar get scatbikes, free S: D and 295 GMC.
And than the rest of the codexes have to adjust to them. And once again, a painful power creep cycle begins. Some like sm get in in months, others like orks or dark eldar get it in 5-7 years. And than the new eldar book gets released.
It was in 6-th, it was in 7-th. There was basicaly 1 edition where eldar weren't broken - 5-th one.

Eldar were a reason 4-th was called an edition of god falcons. They, alongside tau, were a reason why 6-th lost tons of players and the player base hasn't recuperated yet...and probably never will. Eldar, gravguns and decurion are a reason 7-th gets bad rep.

it's just a game tho, these guys at the local store make it sound like I'm some horrible person, I just want to move models around and roll dice. Who cares how strong something is.

PacificRimJob wrote:

it's just a game tho, these guys at the local store make it sound like I'm some horrible person, I just want to move models around and roll dice. Who cares how strong something is.

Playing Devils advocate here. Reverse the situation.

What if you're the guy at the local store and someone want's to play with you using their over-powered army. Would you *really* not care how strong their army is if you know you were going to lose 95% of the time?

Imagine it was a game of chess where you only had pawns and a king while the opponent had every piece available - would it be enjoyable?

PacificRimJob wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Cause when others get nerfs and sidegrades, eldar get scatbikes, free S: D and 295 GMC.
And than the rest of the codexes have to adjust to them. And once again, a painful power creep cycle begins. Some like sm get in in months, others like orks or dark eldar get it in 5-7 years. And than the new eldar book gets released.
It was in 6-th, it was in 7-th. There was basicaly 1 edition where eldar weren't broken - 5-th one.

Eldar were a reason 4-th was called an edition of god falcons. They, alongside tau, were a reason why 6-th lost tons of players and the player base hasn't recuperated yet...and probably never will. Eldar, gravguns and decurion are a reason 7-th gets bad rep.

it's just a game tho, these guys at the local store make it sound like I'm some horrible person, I just want to move models around and roll dice. Who cares how strong something is.

To an extent that's the point. People want to have a fun game not just move models off the table and that means cheesy Eldar lists are disliked. However because of how certain people act about Eldar there's the ridiculous view in some places that ALL Eldar are automatically some evil terrible army which is ridiculous. Your army seems fine for a fun game and there is no reason you shouldn't be allowed to play.

PacificRimJob wrote:
it's just a game tho, these guys at the local store make it sound like I'm some horrible person, I just want to move models around and roll dice. Who cares how strong something is.

This guy.



That's the guy who cares how strong something is.


But seriously; the issue is that not everyone plays the same game, despite it having the same name on the box. It's the whole idea of the social contract. The way you expect a game to go and the way others expect a game to go are not the same thing. I remember when I played just to push around toy soldiers and roll dice, and that was glorious! I've changed since then. I care a lot more about playing cinematic games now, but I also enjoy making smart plays. That's not at all the same, and if my current self played against my younger self, we'd probably both leave the game a little disappointed. This is another reason why it's important to find the right group that shares your values, or to have a clear communication with your opponent ahead of a game.

Apart from making me laugh with that glorious statement...




Yarium is on point and I agree whole heartedly with them.

Eldar are honestly pretty reasonable in ITC, maybe you should introduce your gaming group to it!

But really, they're strong, I think your opponents just need to understand that you're playing for fun and those happen to be the models you own.

 Nevelon wrote:

PacificRimJob wrote:
I have 10 bikes total 3 cannons 1 for every 3 dudes, 2 falcons a farseer and 30 guardians

Eldar lists can be cheesy as all get out, your’s is not.

"I’ve got some bikes, but am sticking with the old 1-in-3 rule for the heavy weapons”
“No wraiths, no D. Heck, no aspect warriors!”
“I’m using Falcons, not Wave Serpents”
“I don’t have the stuff for the new broken formations, so I’m just building with a CAD”

It’s harder to make a “fun” list then a competitive/broken one with Eldar these days. Yours looks like it should be fine. You just have a lot of bias and hate from all the tools out there poisoning the water for you. But as with most prejudice, a little education and understanding should help clear things up. Get to know the locals, show them your list/models, let them know that you aren’t TFG. If they/you are willing, you might want to offer an army swap, and them them play your force.

But his list still stomps BA. That's why Eldar hate.

What's ITC.? Sounds cool

It's the "Independent Tournament Circuit", which has its own set of consistent FAQs and modifications, votes on new issues that come up, and is one of the larger tournament groups around. It's run by Frontline Gaming here; https://www.frontlinegaming.org/

Good folks. Some people are very against ITC though, as they strongly disagree with some of the FAQs and modifications. For example, in ITC you are not making Snap Shots at an Invisible unit, but are instead brought down to BS1. This is a big difference, because now you can shoot Flamers at the invisible unit. They also restrict any reroll on a save to being a 4+ or worse, so you can't get 2+ Invulnerable, rerollable saves. Some people do not like these changes, as they go directly against the written rules. Others prefer them, because they provide balance and allow a greater diversity of lists to exist.

 Yarium wrote:
It's the "Independent Tournament Circuit", which has its own set of consistent FAQs and modifications, votes on new issues that come up, and is one of the larger tournament groups around. It's run by Frontline Gaming here; https://www.frontlinegaming.org/

Good folks. Some people are very against ITC though, as they strongly disagree with some of the FAQs and modifications. For example, in ITC you are not making Snap Shots at an Invisible unit, but are instead brought down to BS1. This is a big difference, because now you can shoot Flamers at the invisible unit. They also restrict any reroll on a save to being a 4+ or worse, so you can't get 2+ Invulnerable, rerollable saves. Some people do not like these changes, as they go directly against the written rules. Others prefer them, because they provide balance and allow a greater diversity of lists to exist.

Even with ITC, Eldar are crazy strong.

Martel732 wrote:But his list still stomps BA. That's why Eldar hate.

“Stomp” I think is a little bit of hyperbole. Even with BA you should be able to have a decent game against that. I’ll give that BA is towards the bottom of the competitive circle, but at the less competitive FLGS, they do fine.

PacificRimJob wrote:What's ITC.? Sounds cool

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

(I think that’s the up to date relevant link)

Community based restrictions/formats/FAQ to make some more balanced competitive play. Since GW is not big on that sort of thing these days. Not everyone plays by them, but they are one standard out there.

Ninja'd

The devil is in the details. That many bladestorming guardians at BS 4 are a serious problem. They have deceptive range with battle focus. Too many special rules that make even a basic unit very fearsome for lists that don't have their own special rules.

Another big part is meta. BA players don't bring weapons to kill guardians because they are too busy trying to survive against, Stormsurge, WK, and TWC. And mass IK.

They're fething OP my brother has eldar and i must agree that the''re just too OP for a fun match

Martel732 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
It's the "Independent Tournament Circuit", which has its own set of consistent FAQs and modifications, votes on new issues that come up, and is one of the larger tournament groups around. It's run by Frontline Gaming here; https://www.frontlinegaming.org/

Good folks. Some people are very against ITC though, as they strongly disagree with some of the FAQs and modifications. For example, in ITC you are not making Snap Shots at an Invisible unit, but are instead brought down to BS1. This is a big difference, because now you can shoot Flamers at the invisible unit. They also restrict any reroll on a save to being a 4+ or worse, so you can't get 2+ Invulnerable, rerollable saves. Some people do not like these changes, as they go directly against the written rules. Others prefer them, because they provide balance and allow a greater diversity of lists to exist.

Even with ITC, Eldar are crazy strong.

I always considering the Independent Tournament Circuit's changes something specific to tournaments, so I really never cared whether or not something was crazy strong. As strong as Eldar are, in the world of top-tier tournaments, they're pretty much average. Below Average even in some cases due to limitations on numbers of Lords of War.

 Yarium wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
It's the "Independent Tournament Circuit", which has its own set of consistent FAQs and modifications, votes on new issues that come up, and is one of the larger tournament groups around. It's run by Frontline Gaming here; https://www.frontlinegaming.org/

Good folks. Some people are very against ITC though, as they strongly disagree with some of the FAQs and modifications. For example, in ITC you are not making Snap Shots at an Invisible unit, but are instead brought down to BS1. This is a big difference, because now you can shoot Flamers at the invisible unit. They also restrict any reroll on a save to being a 4+ or worse, so you can't get 2+ Invulnerable, rerollable saves. Some people do not like these changes, as they go directly against the written rules. Others prefer them, because they provide balance and allow a greater diversity of lists to exist.

Even with ITC, Eldar are crazy strong.

I always considering the Independent Tournament Circuit's changes something specific to tournaments, so I really never cared whether or not something was crazy strong. As strong as Eldar are, in the world of top-tier tournaments, they're pretty much average. Below Average even in some cases due to limitations on numbers of Lords of War.

Perhaps. Although I can't see how a list with Windrider troops is anything worse than above average. They have the mobility to stay away from death stars. And can whittle away in the process.

Martel732 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I always considering the Independent Tournament Circuit's changes something specific to tournaments, so I really never cared whether or not something was crazy strong. As strong as Eldar are, in the world of top-tier tournaments, they're pretty much average. Below Average even in some cases due to limitations on numbers of Lords of War.

Perhaps. Although I can't see how a list with Windrider troops is anything worse than above average. They have the mobility to stay away from death stars. And can whittle away in the process.

That's what I mean . The lists out there, combined with the extremely high skill levels, are so insane-o that taking on Windriders ain't no thang.

I did just pick up 12 more bikes, they look super cool and after reading there rules finally there good! Can't wait to use then

PacificRimJob wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Cause when others get nerfs and sidegrades, eldar get scatbikes, free S: D and 295 GMC.
And than the rest of the codexes have to adjust to them. And once again, a painful power creep cycle begins. Some like sm get in in months, others like orks or dark eldar get it in 5-7 years. And than the new eldar book gets released.
It was in 6-th, it was in 7-th. There was basicaly 1 edition where eldar weren't broken - 5-th one.

Eldar were a reason 4-th was called an edition of god falcons. They, alongside tau, were a reason why 6-th lost tons of players and the player base hasn't recuperated yet...and probably never will. Eldar, gravguns and decurion are a reason 7-th gets bad rep.

it's just a game tho, these guys at the local store make it sound like I'm some horrible person, I just want to move models around and roll dice. Who cares how strong something is.

You asked why - i told you why

Not that you should be ashamed of playing eldar or something. If you like the faction, go for it. Imo, eldar are not the most broken stuff around atm. They're strong indeed and you can literally pick up any unit and make it work. Personally, i've tried playing strong eldar lists and they didn't prove to be fun. It's just that you have so many stuff going for you that you start to get overly relaxed, make slight mistakes here and there and they don't affect the performance so much cause your book does most of the job...and than back to playing orks and...oh, boy, every inch in the movement phase matters again.

I just feel sad that such a race like eldar is represented in a way you don't need to be really good to make them work. They're supposed to be an army that requires mastery in all fields. But nope, they're too fast, too shooty, too tough, don't have glaring ld problems, excel at maelstorm, are strong casters and don't cost much. There's nothing eldar aren't good at. And it spoils the fun.

I much prefer harlequins. Now that's an interesting army. That's the feeling eldar should provide when you play them. The army with subtle bonuses that relies strongly on tactical aspect and planning your moves ahead.

Once again, i'm not claiming that you're completely carried by the codex when you play eldar. If you make serious mistakes, even the best book won't help you. But eldar are just too easy atm.

That's a good idea to swap armies and make your own opinion. This way, you will start to see the problem. And the opponent will also start to see that eldar are not as op as he depicts them. Strong? Yes. Strong but manageable.