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Sorry I was just doing a quick search just to see some eldar lists and threads. All I see is unbeatable this, eldar are the best, and then some guy dman137 or something..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I was just doing a quick search just to see some eldar lists and threads. All I see is unbeatable this, eldar are the best, and then some guy dman137 or something..

PacificRimJob wrote:
I did just pick up 12 more bikes, they look super cool and after reading there rules finally there good! Can't wait to use then

It's perfectly fine to really like Jetbikes. My suggestion would be to pick up some rare earth magnets and magnetise the guns. This way, you can safely shift between playing much softer 1-per-3 upgraded guns as the old rules used to be, right up to being able to take a high level tourney level list of all min/maxed Scatbikes in games where it's appropriate to do so.

What grinds peoples' gears most of all and thus will earn you a reputation as a flaming donkeycave, is the type of person who only builds their stuff in the most optimised fashion, and insists on never playing anything but the filthiest & creamiest cheddar that Codex: Kraftworld Smeldar can provide!

In open LGS's, you need to remember to be flexible. The vast majority of people who play are not looking for nut-crushing, hard core 'Prohammer 40k' style games.
When the vast majority of the group plays for example a much more friendly/non-competitive style game, then the onus is on the very few who enjoy a much different style of gaming to act accordingly and tone down, (or indeed in some cases, turn-up!), the power level of their lists.

Otherwise, if for example only using the 'best of the best' and only playing hyper competitive style games is what you want, then obviously it sounds like you need to find a new group that enjoys that style of gaming.
The local shop sounds like it's made up predominantly of non-competitive/friendly narrative types. Hence why there's such a hate-on for Eldar, as they're so far above the level of most other armies. (basically, anyone not playing Vanilla Marines, Tau & Decurion Necrons)

It is not your fault for picking Eldar. It is Games Workshop's fault for breaking them. 40k right now is in a pretty awful state balance wise. If you had picked Necrons or Tau you would still be in a similar situation. If you had picked Blood Angels or Chaos instead you would find yourself virtually unable to win a game no matter what you took.

Bottom line here, Eldar are good.

If you pair up Eldar against other new codecs (tau, necrons, SM parking lots) then I feel you find some balance to it all.

But the issue is not everyone plays these newer armies, and their is always a power creep.

Eldar matched against the majority of older codexs have a higher win percentage because they just are.... as unfortunate that may be.

As I said before.. your best bet is to market yourself as a new to 7th player and try some low point learning games. ~500 points or so. then after you play these guys and they see your a cool dude, it shouldn't matter what army you play.

I am about to take my Eldar off the shelf again myself My club is anxious to kill some space elves (as i am one of 2 eldar players in our group)

I think it's easy. 40k has always had a dominant army and all you gotta do is play what you want to play and eventually something else will come in. Back in the day Rhino rush Blood Angels were king gak. You had Serpent spam, Grey Knights were crazy good. Nid Carnifex spam was awesome.Tau Buffmander combos were brutal. Arguably Daemons are even better than Eldar (2015 Da Boyz). Necron Decurion is still pretty awesome.

Almost every army has had its day (however brief) and the cycle continues.

A lot of it is just folks have what they have because it was either good at some point or they just like it and the game has moved on. I used to run foot eldar guardian spam with an Avatar in 4th but I don't cry that the Avatar gets no play these days because i know the game has moved on a lot since then. If they can't handle that the meta is changing then it is on them for being unrealistic to this game.

I play a fluff oriented space marine list and I dont think the Eldar are that bad. Sure the bikes are pretty good but at the end of the day they are only 3 marines!

I wish more people in my area played Eldar, the models look so cool!

Zoner wrote:
I think it's easy. 40k has always had a dominant army and all you gotta do is play what you want to play and eventually something else will come in. Back in the day Rhino rush Blood Angels were king gak. You had Serpent spam, Grey Knights were crazy good. Nid Carnifex spam was awesome.Tau Buffmander combos were brutal. Arguably Daemons are even better than Eldar (2015 Da Boyz). Necron Decurion is still pretty awesome.

Almost every army has had its day (however brief) and the cycle continues.

A lot of it is just folks have what they have because it was either good at some point or they just like it and the game has moved on. I used to run foot eldar guardian spam with an Avatar in 4th but I don't cry that the Avatar gets no play these days because i know the game has moved on a lot since then. If they can't handle that the meta is changing then it is on them for being unrealistic to this game.

Play it now mate! Avatar got better, and the Guardian warhost with auto 6" runs is deceptively FAST!

It's a really old army right. Like if you look at my old posts I called my original army the "Iron Donut" where basically I had fearless guardians and a fortuned Avatar shooting a million s6 shots.

I will look into the warhost. The Avatar though, my sense is that he is still too pricey. Back then he was DIRT cheap. Realistically, I run a more Dark Eldar/Eldar these days. But I will consider it.

Zoner wrote:
It's a really old army right. Like if you look at my old posts I called my original army the "Iron Donut" where basically I had fearless guardians and a fortuned Avatar shooting a million s6 shots.

I will look into the warhost. The Avatar though, my sense is that he is still too pricey. Back then he was DIRT cheap. Realistically, I run a more Dark Eldar/Eldar these days. But I will consider it.

I think he is fairly balanced now for his points. he has melta in shooting and armorbane in CC which is a bump. He also gives a furious charge and possibly a rage bubble which i think would be hilarious with storm guardians!

PacificRimJob wrote:
Sorry I was just doing a quick search just to see some eldar lists and threads. All I see is unbeatable this, eldar are the best, and then some guy dman137 or something..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I was just doing a quick search just to see some eldar lists and threads. All I see is unbeatable this, eldar are the best, and then some guy dman137 or something..

Careful, if you say his name 3 times then he'll make a thread posing a question that he really didn't need an answer to and was instead just trying to spark another debate about hate against Eldar and 'fluffy players'.

Ahh yes, Dman1337. He has a particular thing about Eldar and insists that they are not OP, despite all the evidence contrary.

I think the problem isn't so much Eldar as a whole, but the (slightly) irrational fear that you are running some horrible "spam list o'doom" that they have read about on the internet and assume all Eldar players must be using. As long as you try to stick to a list with a bit of everything and talk to people about what you are using first to try and assuage their fears, you should be able to talk your way into a game.

I would suggest that at anything under 2000pts, you probably want to avoid Wraithknights, more than 1 unit of wraithguard or more than 1 unit of predominantly scatter laser jetbikes, especially if you are trying to pick up games with people you haven't played before with any regularity.

With what you posted above, I wouldn't have thought any reasonable person would object to a game as there isn't anything particularly "OP".

Maybe you should lead with "I don't have a wraithknight/D-Spam/Scatterbike spam/Aspect Host Spam, will you play against my Eldar?"

Which gaming store did you go to?

Is PacificRimJob an acceptable alias on this forum? Seriously?

I will admit I am an Eldar hater and it comes down to a list of reasons, starting with more fluff reasons and then going into more of the crunch. That being said let me make this point very clear I do not hate Eldar PLAYERS. My hatred is for the 40k faction.

1. Elves are arrogant d bags in basically every fantasy lore. 40K elves are no exception and honestly tend to come off as more arrogant than most.
2. I like Orks which generally dislike Elves.
3. Eldar just reek of hypocrisy. Their hedonism reached such a critical state that they birthed a chaos god and it resulted in the deaths of the vast majority of their species. Eldar continue to be arrogant d bags despite what should be a very humbling experience but now they are incredibly stuck up and puritan in nature.
4. They modify, bend, or ignore game mechanics in a multitude of ways. No scatter deep strike with WWP, run and shoot, reroll saves with fortune, invisibility, ignore perils with minimum effort, wave serpent shield, etc. Its very irritating to play against so many mechanics that bend the rules to their advantage. (Tau mechanics are often guilty of this as well and I get why people get frustrated with Tau).
5. Str D coming out of the squig hole on non Lord of War units. Who though that making the distort mechanic Str D was an acceptable change without really adjusting the points costs. In general I hate Str D in non Apoc games as it just ignores AV on vehicles which makes a Monolith just as durable as a Trukk.
6. Some incredibly undercosted units like scatter bikes and wraithknights. This results in them being very powerful if not overpowered.

Call it petty or childish but I just do not like Eldar at all. Dark Eldar get a little bit of sympathy from me if only for the fact that they live in the same gutter as the Orks in terms of codex power.

Sounds like a Dman alias

1000 pt game would be no problem. But the norm for my area is 2000. Lots of cheese builds. Scatbike Wraith knight spam, Armored Company AM, Triple tide (and now stormsurge) Tau, Nidzilla Flyrant spam, Imperial and Chaos Knights, 30k armies, and Forgeworld pieces (with no rules to back up). I've seen baneblades, Thunder hawks, and ork Stompas regularly....

When I see those things on the table I have to ask if it's worth even the time and patience to play a game. Also note I am a CSM and Ork player, so "If ya can't beat em, Join em" is kinda out of the question....

OP, check your pm box. Don't let that experience colour your view of TO40k. We are not all mouth breathing gremlins.

 Vankraken wrote:
I will admit I am an Eldar hater and it comes down to a list of reasons, starting with more fluff reasons and then going into more of the crunch. That being said let me make this point very clear I do not hate Eldar PLAYERS. My hatred is for the 40k faction.

1. Elves are arrogant d bags in basically every fantasy lore. 40K elves are no exception and honestly tend to come off as more arrogant than most.
2. I like Orks which generally dislike Elves.
3. Eldar just reek of hypocrisy. Their hedonism reached such a critical state that they birthed a chaos god and it resulted in the deaths of the vast majority of their species. Eldar continue to be arrogant d bags despite what should be a very humbling experience but now they are incredibly stuck up and puritan in nature.
4. They modify, bend, or ignore game mechanics in a multitude of ways. No scatter deep strike with WWP, run and shoot, reroll saves with fortune, invisibility, ignore perils with minimum effort, wave serpent shield, etc. Its very irritating to play against so many mechanics that bend the rules to their advantage. (Tau mechanics are often guilty of this as well and I get why people get frustrated with Tau).
5. Str D coming out of the squig hole on non Lord of War units. Who though that making the distort mechanic Str D was an acceptable change without really adjusting the points costs. In general I hate Str D in non Apoc games as it just ignores AV on vehicles which makes a Monolith just as durable as a Trukk.
6. Some incredibly undercosted units like scatter bikes and wraithknights. This results in them being very powerful if not overpowered.

Call it petty or childish but I just do not like Eldar at all. Dark Eldar get a little bit of sympathy from me if only for the fact that they live in the same gutter as the Orks in terms of codex power.

At least you're polite about your hatred. Most other Eldar haters I've met aren't quite so polite about it. Have to give you props for that (even if I'm an Eldar player myself)

 Vankraken wrote:
I will admit I am an Eldar hater and it comes down to a list of reasons, starting with more fluff reasons and then going into more of the crunch. That being said let me make this point very clear I do not hate Eldar PLAYERS. My hatred is for the 40k faction.

1. Elves are arrogant d bags in basically every fantasy lore. 40K elves are no exception and honestly tend to come off as more arrogant than most.
2. I like Orks which generally dislike Elves.
3. Eldar just reek of hypocrisy. Their hedonism reached such a critical state that they birthed a chaos god and it resulted in the deaths of the vast majority of their species. Eldar continue to be arrogant d bags despite what should be a very humbling experience but now they are incredibly stuck up and puritan in nature.
4. They modify, bend, or ignore game mechanics in a multitude of ways. No scatter deep strike with WWP, run and shoot, reroll saves with fortune, invisibility, ignore perils with minimum effort, wave serpent shield, etc. Its very irritating to play against so many mechanics that bend the rules to their advantage. (Tau mechanics are often guilty of this as well and I get why people get frustrated with Tau).
5. Str D coming out of the squig hole on non Lord of War units. Who though that making the distort mechanic Str D was an acceptable change without really adjusting the points costs. In general I hate Str D in non Apoc games as it just ignores AV on vehicles which makes a Monolith just as durable as a Trukk.
6. Some incredibly undercosted units like scatter bikes and wraithknights. This results in them being very powerful if not overpowered.

Call it petty or childish but I just do not like Eldar at all. Dark Eldar get a little bit of sympathy from me if only for the fact that they live in the same gutter as the Orks in terms of codex power.

Vankraken, as an Eldar player, I can't really argue with most of your points, but 4 & 6 are questionable.

1. Yes, arrogance from a long running rein of supremacy, but can't argue with that, it's lore!
2. Fair enough
3. True in some regards, but not the whole truth. I suspect they are slightly less arrogant than before, but the fall is more or less within living memory for some Eldar, so old habits die hard. This has plenty of corollaries in the real world (obviously not the birth of a god in a literal sense) where a great calamity hasn't diminished the spirit of a people/nation.
4, Space Marine Drop Pods, Tyranid Mawlocs/Trygons also get scatter without mishap on terrain/units off the top of my head and had it around/before Eldar.
They are meant to be one of the fastest species, so running and shooting is probably the easiest(laziest) way of representing that in the current game mechanics (imperial guard have a rule to do the same through orders or did at least?) but they aren't entirely unique. It was easier when difference races moved different distances back in the olden days.
Wave Serpent shield got nerfed in 7th, 1 shot now and you lose the defensive aspect when you shoot it. No twin-linking it with scatter lasers either. Both good changes in my opinion. In Epic, it was shoot, go an entire turn without it, then have it back from the start of the following turn (So shoot turn 2, miss turn 3, have back turn 4). It didn't cause damage, but it completely disabled the targeted enemy unit for 1 turn, enabling easy assaults for the aspect warrior cargo.
Invisibility and save douchebaggery isn't a uniquely Eldar problem (re-animation protocols/feel no pain/[insert deathstar here] shenanigans amongst many others)
5. Yup, completely with you here, Str D in non-apocalypse is un-necessary, they were Str 10 before, which was frankly overkill in many cases, but I think this is a move back towards 2nd edition distort/vortex mechanics.
6. I don't think scatterbikes are undercosted, I do think the heavy option should have stayed at 1/3. Apart from the newly D'd wraith units, I don't think any of the individual units are under/overcosted, I think they are bang on given the general trend for unit costs to decrease from 1 edition to the next. (GW sells more by making everything cheaper so you can fit more in!)
I'm with you on wraithknights though, more points, less Gargantuan/Destroyerness and/or harder to take in armies, but this seems to be the way 40k is going (Epic scaled up to 25mm scale).
Overall, I think we can expect to see more armies following suit over the course of 7th edition (Tau being another prime example, as you pointed out).

As been said elsewhere in this thread and the countless others since C;Craftworlds came out, it's up to the players to seek balance whilst they are re-releasing codices after a core edition change. People with the money and who want to exploit the most powerful combo's out of a codex/rules update will do so, no matter what codex it is, only the people using it can choose to make it a fun game by not being a WAAC player.

Even in 4/5th without using the "indestructible DAVU falcon" I found Eldar were top tier. I've always been a fan of Vypers, Support Platforms, Shining Spears, Howling Banshees and Swooping Hawks amongst many other units everyone else hated or believed were "useless" and had a great degree of success. I'm just glad to see most of them given a more prominent role.

@War Kitten. Thanks, I know the feeling of being hated for playing or liking a faction (Tau) and it really sucks. People can hate my blue anime space commie goats all day long but please don't direct that hate to me

@Ace Rimmer. Most of my dislikes of Eldar are from my perception of them. In the case of #4 its just how often they can alter game mechanics to their favor. Its basically Eldar's M.O. but honestly its just not a style that I'm not very fond of. Individually each one of those mechanics aren't what a directly dislike (except fortune, rerolling saves start to get ugly when you get down to 3+ and 2+ rerollable) but its the sum total of all of them that rub me the wrong way. The issue with the Serpent Shield was that 5/6 of the time it down graded a pen to a glance. Shooting the shield is definitely annoying (glad 6th edition style serpent spam is "dead") in its own right but that mechanic of ignoring pens goes along with the whole Eldar bending the rules theme that I am not fond of.
With #6 its the combination of points cost and codex rules that makes them seem incredibly power. Scatter bikes combine decent durability, good firepower, crazy mobility, and being troops that feels like they are above average at most things but without any premium for that versatility. Ork Tankbustas are guilty of this as well with stupidly dirt cheap assault krak missile spam and melta bombs all with tankhunter. If Orks had good army wide rules then Tankbustas would be brokenly OP but given the glaring weaknesses of the Ork codex Tankbustas aren't as unbearable to go up against (and often times have to carry the Ork codex on their back).

Eldar have been a very powerful army in just about every edition, in fact in every edition they've had a codex printed (all except 5th), they've been at least one of the top 3 armies of that edition if not *the* top army.

They're an army that, in theory, is built around mutually supporting specialist elements having to work together in perfect sync with excellent generalship needed to get the most out of them. In practice however, they just end up being able to min max incredibly effectively and able to do everything anyone else can do, but better. They're an army that, initially, looks like a glass cannon in many respects, but often ends up being one of the most resilient armies in the game, while retaining probably the best mobility and nearly unmatched offensive output.

The exact nature of this has changed every edition (Warp Spiders & psychic powers &move-shoot-move skimmers in 2nd, starcannon spam & alaitoc tables in 3rd, invinciskimmers in 4th, Wave Serpents in 6th, and just about *everything* in 7th), but, ultimately, it's pretty much been a constant.

To top it off, you have a large number of Eldar players that insist that they're not and have never been overpowered, or, on the opposite end, that they simply "deserve" to be overpowered because "Well...Space Elves".

And I say this as someone who owns about 5000pts of Eldar

So, that's my take at least on why you'll see a whole lot of Eldar hate out there.

 Vankraken wrote:
@War Kitten. Thanks, I know the feeling of being hated for playing or liking a faction (Tau) and it really sucks. People can hate my blue anime space commie goats all day long but please don't direct that hate to me

@Ace Rimmer. Most of my dislikes of Eldar are from my perception of them. In the case of #4 its just how often they can alter game mechanics to their favor. Its basically Eldar's M.O. but honestly its just not a style that I'm not very fond of. Individually each one of those mechanics aren't what a directly dislike (except fortune, rerolling saves start to get ugly when you get down to 3+ and 2+ rerollable) but its the sum total of all of them that rub me the wrong way. The issue with the Serpent Shield was that 5/6 of the time it down graded a pen to a glance. Shooting the shield is definitely annoying (glad 6th edition style serpent spam is "dead") in its own right but that mechanic of ignoring pens goes along with the whole Eldar bending the rules theme that I am not fond of.
With #6 its the combination of points cost and codex rules that makes them seem incredibly power. Scatter bikes combine decent durability, good firepower, crazy mobility, and being troops that feels like they are above average at most things but without any premium for that versatility. Ork Tankbustas are guilty of this as well with stupidly dirt cheap assault krak missile spam and melta bombs all with tankhunter. If Orks had good army wide rules then Tankbustas would be brokenly OP but given the glaring weaknesses of the Ork codex Tankbustas aren't as unbearable to go up against (and often times have to carry the Ork codex on their back).

What, you mean like how my imperial guard can choose to ignore:

-running and shooting in the same phase
-Cover
-All units must fire at the same target
-going to ground then still getting to act

My choice, at will, on any unit?

Or how space marines can, for 35 points, deep strike literally anything that's allowed to be in transports with practically no risk of mishap?

The reason people hate Eldar is that their codex is currently the best, and the reason nobody cares for the most part about all the bs rules SMs get (want to talk about ignoring huge swathes of the game rules? ATSKNF.) is because practically everyone plays space marines of some flavor or another, so they're familiar.

The main issue is that every unit in the eldar codex is at least decent. Even without going for full cheese, an eldar army is inherently strong because everything in the book is good. Few codex's can claim that honor, the closest probably being Necrons or normal Space Marines. Many codex's have half or more of the book being bad.

Atsknf doesnt table other lists in two turns.

And scatterbikes are the poster child for undercosted. For all their rules, they should be 35 pts easy.

Martel732 wrote:
Atsknf doesnt table other lists in two turns.

This is a good point. Morale isn't entirely important I've found this edition.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
@War Kitten. Thanks, I know the feeling of being hated for playing or liking a faction (Tau) and it really sucks. People can hate my blue anime space commie goats all day long but please don't direct that hate to me

@Ace Rimmer. Most of my dislikes of Eldar are from my perception of them. In the case of #4 its just how often they can alter game mechanics to their favor. Its basically Eldar's M.O. but honestly its just not a style that I'm not very fond of. Individually each one of those mechanics aren't what a directly dislike (except fortune, rerolling saves start to get ugly when you get down to 3+ and 2+ rerollable) but its the sum total of all of them that rub me the wrong way. The issue with the Serpent Shield was that 5/6 of the time it down graded a pen to a glance. Shooting the shield is definitely annoying (glad 6th edition style serpent spam is "dead") in its own right but that mechanic of ignoring pens goes along with the whole Eldar bending the rules theme that I am not fond of.
With #6 its the combination of points cost and codex rules that makes them seem incredibly power. Scatter bikes combine decent durability, good firepower, crazy mobility, and being troops that feels like they are above average at most things but without any premium for that versatility. Ork Tankbustas are guilty of this as well with stupidly dirt cheap assault krak missile spam and melta bombs all with tankhunter. If Orks had good army wide rules then Tankbustas would be brokenly OP but given the glaring weaknesses of the Ork codex Tankbustas aren't as unbearable to go up against (and often times have to carry the Ork codex on their back).

What, you mean like how my imperial guard can choose to ignore:

-running and shooting in the same phase
-Cover
-All units must fire at the same target
-going to ground then still getting to act

My choice, at will, on any unit?

*IF* you have an officer (that isn't locked in combat or falling back), within range, and pass an Ld test (for the army that pretty much has the universally worst Ld in the game besides Orks), and only as long as you're wanting to do one of those things on an unembarked infantry unit (which are pretty much the worst units in the army), or a tank in an HQ slot where the orders pretty much just exist to overcome the hamper of being hamfisted into a squadron in the first place...

The huge number conditionals in there means often, with my IG, I'll never issue a single order in an entire game, or, even if I do, they may not function right.

Or how space marines can, for 35 points, deep strike literally anything that's allowed to be in transports with practically no risk of mishap?

The reason people hate Eldar is that their codex is currently the best, and the reason nobody cares for the most part about all the bs rules SMs get (want to talk about ignoring huge swathes of the game rules? ATSKNF.) is because practically everyone plays space marines of some flavor or another, so they're familiar.

People have called "bs" on SM stuff. There have been many threads about Drop Pods, and ATSKNF has been widely criticized, while Grav spam is bemoaned nearly as much as Eldar.

Either you haven't been looking around, or you're actively ignoring it

 Vaktathi wrote:
There have been many threads about Drop Pods, and ATSKNF has been widely criticized, while Grav spam is bemoaned nearly as much as Eldar.

Either you haven't been looking around, or you're actively ignoring it

They probably forgot amongst all the untalented Marine players complaining about how everything in their codex is underpowered.

And yet, Sisters get a single thread maybe every two weeks or so and people complain about it... marine-centric bags of soggy squigs.

People just don't like a Codex where the other guy has to purposefully gimp himself just so there can be an actual game (IE both parties standing a chance of winning). Unlike Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Daemons, etc where you have to try to be that guy, you're automatically "that guy" as an Eldar or Necron player simply by fielding some vanilla formations in the book.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Eldar have been a very powerful army in just about every edition, in fact in every edition they've had a codex printed (all except 5th), they've been at least one of the top 3 armies of that edition if not *the* top army.

They're an army that, in theory, is built around mutually supporting specialist elements having to work together in perfect sync with excellent generalship needed to get the most out of them. In practice however, they just end up being able to min max incredibly effectively and able to do everything anyone else can do, but better. They're an army that, initially, looks like a glass cannon in many respects, but often ends up being one of the most resilient armies in the game, while retaining probably the best mobility and nearly unmatched offensive output.

The exact nature of this has changed every edition (Warp Spiders & psychic powers &move-shoot-move skimmers in 2nd, starcannon spam & alaitoc tables in 3rd, invinciskimmers in 4th, Wave Serpents in 6th, and just about *everything* in 7th), but, ultimately, it's pretty much been a constant.

To top it off, you have a large number of Eldar players that insist that they're not and have never been overpowered, or, on the opposite end, that they simply "deserve" to be overpowered because "Well...Space Elves".

And I say this as someone who owns about 5000pts of Eldar

So, that's my take at least on why you'll see a whole lot of Eldar hate out there.

Well said.

I'll run Orkdar with a lot of footslogging guardians (shootaboyz), stormguardians (choppaboyz), banshees ('eavy armored choppaboyz?), striking scorpions (kommandoes?) and an Avatar (helbrute, suddenly) one day.