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Martel732 wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that trick. However, Tau, Eldar, and others have the firepower to address that trick. Two DC getting into CC won't win the day.

Note that using pods to cut a force up also by definition is making yourself surrounded. That sounds like a really poor plan. Especially against say, another BA list or other assaulty list.

I've run dual CADs before. And the fleshtearer thing. I've had 8 obj sec units. I've had zero. I've had fliers, I've not had fliers. (Marine fliers are weak, imo) It all comes down to mathematical efficacy, and the BA have virtually none of that.

A huge problem is that quite literally nothing in the BA codex is durable. Yes, T4 3+ FNP is no longer durable in the face of grav cannons, Tau, Eldar, and DA lists. The BA codex forces non-choices on opponents because we have no Wraith or TWC equivalent. Opponents can kill 30 power armor bodies in a single shooting phase if pressed. The survivors don't have enough CC punch to get it done. Also, the fliers you listed as completely ignorable, as they don't have enough firepower to justify their cost. Welcome to 7th.


That's more a Necron problem. BA were in line with the 2014 7th Codexes.
e

As for TWC, well they've always been good. They should cost more for what they do. Nob Bikers cost 5 pts more and for that they -1 WS (SW detachment gives WS5 to TWC), -1S -2 BS, 4+ (and Jink), no rending, S9 max, no invulnerable, etc etc.

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True though nob bikers do get the ability to turbo boost and Jink (not saying they're on par with TWC obviously)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 15:42:21


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 Frozocrone wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that trick. However, Tau, Eldar, and others have the firepower to address that trick. Two DC getting into CC won't win the day.

Note that using pods to cut a force up also by definition is making yourself surrounded. That sounds like a really poor plan. Especially against say, another BA list or other assaulty list.

I've run dual CADs before. And the fleshtearer thing. I've had 8 obj sec units. I've had zero. I've had fliers, I've not had fliers. (Marine fliers are weak, imo) It all comes down to mathematical efficacy, and the BA have virtually none of that.

A huge problem is that quite literally nothing in the BA codex is durable. Yes, T4 3+ FNP is no longer durable in the face of grav cannons, Tau, Eldar, and DA lists. The BA codex forces non-choices on opponents because we have no Wraith or TWC equivalent. Opponents can kill 30 power armor bodies in a single shooting phase if pressed. The survivors don't have enough CC punch to get it done. Also, the fliers you listed as completely ignorable, as they don't have enough firepower to justify their cost. Welcome to 7th.


That's more a Necron problem. BA were in line with the 2014 7th Codexes.
e

As for TWC, well they've always been good. They should cost more for what they do. Nob Bikers cost 5 pts more and for that they -1 WS (SW detachment gives WS5 to TWC), -1S -2 BS, 4+ (and Jink), no rending, S9 max, no invulnerable, etc etc.


It's not a necron problem. It's a firepower problem. Tau and eldar can just sandpaper through T4 3+ FNP like its nothing. Or just instavaporize them with a Riptide/WK.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

Martel732 wrote:
 Frozocrone wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that trick. However, Tau, Eldar, and others have the firepower to address that trick. Two DC getting into CC won't win the day.

Note that using pods to cut a force up also by definition is making yourself surrounded. That sounds like a really poor plan. Especially against say, another BA list or other assaulty list.

I've run dual CADs before. And the fleshtearer thing. I've had 8 obj sec units. I've had zero. I've had fliers, I've not had fliers. (Marine fliers are weak, imo) It all comes down to mathematical efficacy, and the BA have virtually none of that.

A huge problem is that quite literally nothing in the BA codex is durable. Yes, T4 3+ FNP is no longer durable in the face of grav cannons, Tau, Eldar, and DA lists. The BA codex forces non-choices on opponents because we have no Wraith or TWC equivalent. Opponents can kill 30 power armor bodies in a single shooting phase if pressed. The survivors don't have enough CC punch to get it done. Also, the fliers you listed as completely ignorable, as they don't have enough firepower to justify their cost. Welcome to 7th.


That's more a Necron problem. BA were in line with the 2014 7th Codexes.
e

As for TWC, well they've always been good. They should cost more for what they do. Nob Bikers cost 5 pts more and for that they -1 WS (SW detachment gives WS5 to TWC), -1S -2 BS, 4+ (and Jink), no rending, S9 max, no invulnerable, etc etc.


It's not a necron problem. It's a firepower problem. Tau and eldar can just sandpaper through T4 3+ FNP like its nothing. Or just instavaporize them with a Riptide/WK.


Its not a recent problem either. I remember Eldar having some ridiculous long range, high strength low AP fire power en masse back in 4th as well.
Tau back then weren't as bad, as whilst they had a lot of shots at long range, not many of them ignored armor (unless you were an ork player or nids. But Orks had bodies and vehicles, and nids had MCs and Bloodlords).
Eldar could just hide on their table edge and throw out S6 AP3 or S5 AP3 shots all day from a distance.
If you don't shoot you to death, they'll send in Harlequins and rend your squad into nothing, and jump to another squad.
Phil Kelly really has a thing for Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 16:16:08


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I just never thought BA would be back where they were in 2nd ed. I guess they're a bit better, as I was winless in 2nd ed. 2nd ed was VERY lopsided.

Unsurprisingly, the Eldar list you described was able to win more matches in 5th than many care to remember. I still remember a SW player throwing his drop pod against a wall after losing to Eldar. He thought his victory was assured by the new shiny codex. Wrong. Firepower always works.

" BA were in line with the 2014 7th Codexes. "

That's little comfort at this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 16:25:24


 
   
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Have you thought about looking into some FW stuff Martel? Things like Sicaran Battle Tanks and Typhon's are a great boon to Marine players, including BA.

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 War Kitten wrote:
Have you thought about looking into some FW stuff Martel? Things like Sicaran Battle Tanks and Typhon's are a great boon to Marine players, including BA.


Sicarans are weak in my meta. There's a guy who uses them, and they just get dusted by D weapons or stepped on by IK or WK. The Sicaran's damage output isn't that great in the 7th ed meta, imo. It was more boss in 6th. The Typhon? Maybe. Overall options for BA in FW are rather poor though, which is why I rank CSM ahead of them in the power hierarchy.
   
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Fair enough. FW does offer some nice things for Marines though and most of the Marine players I know (which includes DA and BA) swear by things like Fire Raptors.

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Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
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 War Kitten wrote:
Fair enough. FW does offer some nice things for Marines though and most of the Marine players I know (which includes DA and BA) swear by things like Fire Raptors.


There's a guy who uses Fire Raptors. I beat him most of the time because fliers just don't cut it in 7th. I see FW as just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for the BA. I can pay zero additional money and keep losing, or pay more money and keep losing. I'm in a very weird niche I realize because I don't have multiple armies. I'm the complete opposite of whom GW wants to cater to.
   
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 War Kitten wrote:
Fair enough. FW does offer some nice things for Marines though and most of the Marine players I know (which includes DA and BA) swear by things like Fire Raptors.


To be fair, you're wasting your time. Martel only sees Scatter Lasers and WKs now, there is no other option

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 jreilly89 wrote:
 War Kitten wrote:
Fair enough. FW does offer some nice things for Marines though and most of the Marine players I know (which includes DA and BA) swear by things like Fire Raptors.


To be fair, you're wasting your time. Martel only sees Scatter Lasers and WKs now, there is no other option


I just said I beat Fire Raptors. So if I can beat them, why would I think I can beat any decent list with them? They are an expensive unit that can be ignored. Now if Fire Raptors could actually damage Riptides or WK on a meaningful time scale, I'd be more impressed. There's a reason I say that the only Imperial heavy weapon worth a damn is the grav cannon. It can remove the targets I care about. All the garbage weapons on Stormravens and Fire Raptors don't matter in the scheme of 7th.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:05:35


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
 War Kitten wrote:
Fair enough. FW does offer some nice things for Marines though and most of the Marine players I know (which includes DA and BA) swear by things like Fire Raptors.


To be fair, you're wasting your time. Martel only sees Scatter Lasers and WKs now, there is no other option


I just said I beat Fire Raptors. So if I can beat them, why would I think I can beat any decent list with them? They are an expensive unit that can be ignored. Now if Fire Raptors could actually damage Riptides or WK on a meaningful time scale, I'd be more impressed. There's a reason I say that the only Imperial heavy weapon worth a damn is the grav cannon. It can remove the targets I care about. All the garbage weapons on Stormravens and Fire Raptors don't matter in the scheme of 7th.

Someone should talk about the difference between 7th and 'Martel's personal hell of bitterness and cheese'.

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You act like there's going to be a functional difference. Yes, in theory, players could field lists on par with BA. But why would they, given the option not to?

If you disagree with my assessment of Imperial heavy weapons, explain why you disagree.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
You act like there's going to be a functional difference. Yes, in theory, players could field lists on par with BA. But why would they, given the option not to?

If you disagree with my assessment of Imperial heavy weapons, explain why you disagree.

Legend tells of things called 'games' these were once played for fun and entertainment by many. Legend also says 40k was a game and people would make armies for fun rather than whatever your meta does.

I disagree because you assume your meta is the standard for everyone which I find difficult to believe.

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pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You act like there's going to be a functional difference. Yes, in theory, players could field lists on par with BA. But why would they, given the option not to?

If you disagree with my assessment of Imperial heavy weapons, explain why you disagree.

Legend tells of things called 'games' these were once played for fun and entertainment by many. Legend also says 40k was a game and people would make armies for fun rather than whatever your meta does.

I disagree because you assume your meta is the standard for everyone which I find difficult to believe.


Maybe not to the same extent, but the math is all the same. Imperial heavy weapons, when combined with the platforms you find them on and their cost are hilariously poor. The shift on the vehicle damage table really tilted anti-tank work towards things like the scatter laser and HYMP, which were already superior at anti-infantry. Most imperial heavy weapons literally have no nice anymore. The big winner of the group, the multilaser, can't be fielded in sufficient numbers.

It's just not fun to have a weapon like the lascannon be mostly useless now because of MCs and hull points.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You act like there's going to be a functional difference. Yes, in theory, players could field lists on par with BA. But why would they, given the option not to?

If you disagree with my assessment of Imperial heavy weapons, explain why you disagree.

Legend tells of things called 'games' these were once played for fun and entertainment by many. Legend also says 40k was a game and people would make armies for fun rather than whatever your meta does.

I disagree because you assume your meta is the standard for everyone which I find difficult to believe.


Maybe not to the same extent, but the math is all the same. Imperial heavy weapons, when combined with the platforms you find them on and their cost are hilariously poor. The shift on the vehicle damage table really tilted anti-tank work towards things like the scatter laser and HYMP, which were already superior at anti-infantry. Most imperial heavy weapons literally have no nice anymore. The big winner of the group, the multilaser, can't be fielded in sufficient numbers.

It's just not fun to have a weapon like the lascannon be mostly useless now because of MCs and hull points.

I've not really found lascannons to be THAT bad. They're not some awesome anti tank gun but they aren't as bad as you make out.

Care to explain how most of the heavy weapons have no niche? My experience is that they do.

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You shoot things with them, and nothing meaningful dies. I'd call that losing their niche.

5 X scatterlasers fire, plenty of stuff dies.
4 X grav cannons fire, plenty of stuff dies.
2 X heavy d-cannons fire, plenty of stuff dies.

4 X ML? Meh
4 X Lascannon? Meh
4 X Heavy bolter? please
4 X Plasma cannon? maybe the worst on the list after the get hots hot and miss (scatter) dice

Also consider the top list can all be put on move and shoot platforms, where as the bottom list is restricted to devastators. Yeah, you can get tanks, but then you cut your firepower down quite a bit.

There's the assault cannon, but imperials pay 20 pts a pop, it has inferior range and can't mass it. Useless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 19:14:28


 
   
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Take a lascannon against av 12 (pretty common) and bs 4 (again, common).
Hits and wounds on a 3+, so just under 50% (44?) to cause a single hp. That's not assuming cover or jink, which can drop it to about a third or worse.

So 2-3 lascannon shots to damage most tanks, and most tanks have 3hp. So 6-9 lascannons to destroy a single tank, and lascannons are very expensive.

This gets worse against flyers, since it becomes a 6 to hit, or mcs with invuls and Fnp with a ton of wounds and stacked saves. It takes lascannons ages to down a riptide that is trying to survive.

In addition, lascannons are usually on relatively slow platforms, so they have trouble if Los blocking terrain exists.

Plasma, Grav, melta, scats, haywire, and d weapons have replaced lascannons and lances as anti tank weapons. The latter really needs to cause 2 hp or wounds on a pen or something to be cost effective.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
You shoot things with them, and nothing meaningful dies. I'd call that losing their niche.

5 X scatterlasers fire, plenty of stuff dies.
4 X grav cannons fire, plenty of stuff dies.
2 X heavy d-cannons fire, plenty of stuff dies.

4 X ML? Meh
4 X Lascannon? Meh
4 X Heavy bolter? please
4 X Plasma cannon? maybe the worst on the list after the get hots hot and miss (scatter) dice

Also consider the top list can all be put on move and shoot platforms, where as the bottom list is restricted to devastators. Yeah, you can get tanks, but then you cut your firepower down quite a bit.

There's the assault cannon, but imperials pay 20 pts a pop, it has inferior range and can't mass it. Useless.

So it's not as good as one of the most OP things in the game. Therefore is terrible. Gotcha.

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Which one? I offered three weapon systems that are all far superior. I didn't even include the HYMP. How many superior weapon systems have to be introduced before they stop being OP and your old equipment becomes underpowered? I'd argue it's already happened.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 19:56:16


 
   
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Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.

I'd argue the Imperial ones still work. Off the top of my head the only one I'd say is as bad as you make out is a multi melta.

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pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.

I'd argue the Imperial ones still work. Off the top of my head the only one I'd say is as bad as you make out is a multi melta.


But the math on the Imperial heavy weapons argues back. The other poster above showed it quite clearly. And again, I left off HYMP. I can also tell you how my BA will fare against another marine list based solely on number of grav cannons with a pretty good degree of accuracy. Why? Because the other Imperial heavy weapons can't stop me from getting into assault. They can't kill enough. BA start looking good again when you can't make me scoop up 20-30 models a turn. And regular imperial heavy weapons can't do that. Maybe if the Imperium could field more multilasers; ROF mid STR is king now unless you are STR D.

The D cannon can easily down LRs and IKs. That qualifies as "plenty of stuff" to me. Especially when the weapons you are talking about can barely scratch those vehicles.

Do you also consider HYMP pretty cheesy? How many "cheesy" weapons does there need to be before you start to understand that they are the new standard and these old weapons are outdated junk?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:09:41


 
   
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And I can tell you I stopped listening at BA because everything after was probably just bitterness and complaining.

So what you're saying is an army with good armour can survive heavy weapons? Shocking. How do they start doing against things like Eldar for example.

Frankly if you think I need to kill 20 models for a turn to be considered good then there's no point talking further as I doubt we'll agree on much.

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pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.

I'd argue the Imperial ones still work. Off the top of my head the only one I'd say is as bad as you make out is a multi melta.


I think the multi-melta is pretty reasonable considering it's one of the cheapest heavy weapons. if I'm going to have non-grav heavy weapons doing very little with the occasional good shot, they might as well be cheap so I can put more bodies down elsewhere!

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pm713 wrote:
And I can tell you I stopped listening at BA because everything after was probably just bitterness and complaining.

So what you're saying is an army with good armour can survive heavy weapons? Shocking. How do they start doing against things like Eldar for example.

Frankly if you think I need to kill 20 models for a turn to be considered good then there's no point talking further as I doubt we'll agree on much.


You stopped listening by your own admission, even though I was doing the exact reverse of what you assumed.

What I'm saying is that standard imperial heavy weapons can't cause enough casualties to a standard BA list to prevent being run over. I'm saying specifically that BA can survive against standard Imperial heavy weapons, but not Eldar or Tau. What does that tell you about Imperial heavies vs Xeno heavies?

There's more than one way to be good, but tabling your opponent is the surest way to victory. Something the Eldar and Tau can do to BA rather easily. Again, why can they do it easily, but it's virtually impossible for SM who aren't using grav cannons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.

I'd argue the Imperial ones still work. Off the top of my head the only one I'd say is as bad as you make out is a multi melta.


I think the multi-melta is pretty reasonable considering it's one of the cheapest heavy weapons. if I'm going to have non-grav heavy weapons doing very little with the occasional good shot, they might as well be cheap so I can put more bodies down elsewhere!


MM to me is an improved krak launcher.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:14:53


 
   
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pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.
The problem being that those two models ca be anything from a Stompa or a small Titan on down, potentially without any saves, and does so ignoring toughness, AV, etc.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.
The problem being that those two models ca be anything from a Stompa or a small Titan on down, potentially without any saves, and does so ignoring toughness, AV, etc.


Could also be 2 Termagants. Either way 2 is not many which is what I meant.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.
The problem being that those two models ca be anything from a Stompa or a small Titan on down, potentially without any saves, and does so ignoring toughness, AV, etc.



That was my thinking when I listed the heavy D-cannon as a modern heavy capable of inflicting the damage I would expect from a heavy weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.
The problem being that those two models ca be anything from a Stompa or a small Titan on down, potentially without any saves, and does so ignoring toughness, AV, etc.


Could also be 2 Termagants. Either way 2 is not many which is what I meant.


But ranged attacks choose their target, unlike assault lists who have their targets chosen for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:16:38


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
And I can tell you I stopped listening at BA because everything after was probably just bitterness and complaining.

So what you're saying is an army with good armour can survive heavy weapons? Shocking. How do they start doing against things like Eldar for example.

Frankly if you think I need to kill 20 models for a turn to be considered good then there's no point talking further as I doubt we'll agree on much.


You stopped listening by your own admission, even though I was doing the exact reverse of what you assumed.

What I'm saying is that standard imperial heavy weapons can't cause enough casualties to a standard BA list to prevent being run over. I'm saying specifically that BA can survive against standard Imperial heavy weapons, but not Eldar or Tau. What does that tell you about Imperial heavies vs Xeno heavies?

There's more than one way to be good, but tabling your opponent is the surest way to victory. Something the Eldar and Tau can do to BA rather easily. Again, why can they do it easily, but it's virtually impossible for SM who aren't using grav cannons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.

I'd argue the Imperial ones still work. Off the top of my head the only one I'd say is as bad as you make out is a multi melta.


I think the multi-melta is pretty reasonable considering it's one of the cheapest heavy weapons. if I'm going to have non-grav heavy weapons doing very little with the occasional good shot, they might as well be cheap so I can put more bodies down elsewhere!


MM to me is an improved krak launcher.

You need to check what opposite means.

One is balanced or close to it. One is too powerful. That's what it tells me.

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I'm really not seeing where you're spotting all these crazy powerful Eldar builds outside of "a few broken cheese combos" like marines have.

Here-don't use transported scythe guard, windriders, or wraithknights.

What are you seeing that's so nuts here? Maybe a dire avenger shrine in serpents, with warp spiders and Farseers? Or maybe are you going to bust out the footslogging Eldar melee powerhouse?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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