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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Don't be silly. ALL Eldar are the broken cheese armies. NOBODY uses anything else. Martel says so and Martel is a genius. Like Dman....

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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Eldar don't have to resort to FW psykers, formations or even special characters to table BA, Orks, DE, Nids.

Grav cents can be neutralized by return fire without the magic of invisibility. Marines trying to play the objective game will be tabled without the freeness of Gladius. Marines fielding grav devs will just have them murdered without the rules from Skyhammer.

Eldar don't need cheese combos; their units are that powerful to start with. Marines are completely reliant on formations and tricks like gravstar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"One is balanced or close to it. One is too powerful. That's what it tells me."

Who decides where the balance is set? If you look at the last four codices, it's not being set where you think it is. Grav cannons are NOT too powerful in a game with Riptides and Wraithknights. Lascannons are too weak. You can't dial back the power creep; it's too late for that. Hell, Imperial standard heavies aren't even good against a weak codex like BA. I have the victories to prove it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:23:56


 
   
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But I thought you only ever took the cheesiest thing? So therefore there AREN'T non Gladius marine armies.

I laughed at the Eldar bit. That's really not true. At all.

4 new codicies or 19 older ones. Pretty clear which one sets the standard there.

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pm713 wrote:
Don't be silly. ALL Eldar are the broken cheese armies. NOBODY uses anything else. Martel says so and Martel is a genius. Like Dman....



And you are completely ignoring Akaisura's post. You haven't addressed it at all. It's not just myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
But I thought you only ever took the cheesiest thing? So therefore there AREN'T non Gladius marine armies.

I laughed at the Eldar bit. That's really not true. At all.

4 new codicies or 19 older ones. Pretty clear which one sets the standard there.


So if you had an Ork list, you don't think Eldar can table you without a formation? You are really going to claim that?

And I was more talking to Scotsman on that one. lt's pretty clear you've tuned out. All the math is against you, so you resort to pettiness.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:29:39


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Seems more realistic than anything you say if I'm honest. No I don't think Eldar will automatically table Orks by virtue of being Eldar because that's ridiculous.


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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This whole thread is serving to make me feel guilty for starting Eldar, maybe I would have been better off with having DE as the primary and Eldar the ally...

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
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 War Kitten wrote:
This whole thread is serving to make me feel guilty for starting Eldar, maybe I would have been better off with having DE as the primary and Eldar the ally...


Bank on future codices being up at Eldar level. The marines, Tau, and DA (kind of) can all compete (kind of). Space Wolves can run you over with a Wolfstar. Everyone else pretty much dies a horrible death, though. Wait, I think demons can field some shenanigans that are problematic as well. I'm probably missing a build or two, but as I said, count on the competition coming down the pipe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Seems more realistic than anything you say if I'm honest. No I don't think Eldar will automatically table Orks by virtue of being Eldar because that's ridiculous.



I didn't say automatically. I said do it without the aid of a formation or special character or FW. The fact that they CAN do it, and marines basically can't is the difference I see between the power level of the two lists. .

Everything I've said about Imperial heavy weapons is completely backed up by math. You can't get MORE realistic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:39:36


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Akiasura wrote:
Take a lascannon against av 12 (pretty common) and bs 4 (again, common).
Hits and wounds on a 3+, so just under 50% (44?) to cause a single hp. That's not assuming cover or jink, which can drop it to about a third or worse.

So 2-3 lascannon shots to damage most tanks, and most tanks have 3hp. So 6-9 lascannons to destroy a single tank, and lascannons are very expensive.

This gets worse against flyers, since it becomes a 6 to hit, or mcs with invuls and Fnp with a ton of wounds and stacked saves. It takes lascannons ages to down a riptide that is trying to survive.

In addition, lascannons are usually on relatively slow platforms, so they have trouble if Los blocking terrain exists.

Plasma, Grav, melta, scats, haywire, and d weapons have replaced lascannons and lances as anti tank weapons. The latter really needs to cause 2 hp or wounds on a pen or something to be cost effective.

This is the Riptide that's considered extremely durable by most people? Is that with or without it boosting its invul save?

Or that's a tank on the brink of death and probably taken some damage from a penetrating hit as well. Again is it an amazing weapon of instant death? No. Is it way better than Martel claims? Yes.

I'm not going to disagree with the flyer part. Lascannons are not very good against Flyers to put it gently.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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pm713 wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Take a lascannon against av 12 (pretty common) and bs 4 (again, common).
Hits and wounds on a 3+, so just under 50% (44?) to cause a single hp. That's not assuming cover or jink, which can drop it to about a third or worse.

So 2-3 lascannon shots to damage most tanks, and most tanks have 3hp. So 6-9 lascannons to destroy a single tank, and lascannons are very expensive.

This gets worse against flyers, since it becomes a 6 to hit, or mcs with invuls and Fnp with a ton of wounds and stacked saves. It takes lascannons ages to down a riptide that is trying to survive.

In addition, lascannons are usually on relatively slow platforms, so they have trouble if Los blocking terrain exists.

Plasma, Grav, melta, scats, haywire, and d weapons have replaced lascannons and lances as anti tank weapons. The latter really needs to cause 2 hp or wounds on a pen or something to be cost effective.

This is the Riptide that's considered extremely durable by most people? Is that with or without it boosting its invul save?

Or that's a tank on the brink of death and probably taken some damage from a penetrating hit as well. Again is it an amazing weapon of instant death? No. Is it way better than Martel claims? Yes.

I'm not going to disagree with the flyer part. Lascannons are not very good against Flyers to put it gently.


It doesn't matter. It still takes an insane number of lascannon shots to kill even a base Riptide. Add in FNP, ruins (which are free) or the shield and it gets even worse. You'll never do it before it's slagged all your important units. The real kicker is that it fights at 100% effectiveness till the last wound is gone.

It's no better than I claim because I'm claiming it is what the math says it is. Do you dispute the math somehow? 7th ed has made it extremely unlikely to explode a vehicle with AP 2. This means the preferred anti-tank method is hp stripping. Which, as a ROF 1 weapon, the lascannon is extremely inefficient at. Because its ROF 1, it's also bad against MCs.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:46:06


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




You haven't given any maths at all. I can't dispute what isn't there. Akiasura's maths doesn't really support what you seem to say either.

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pm713 wrote:
You haven't given any maths at all. I can't dispute what isn't there. Akiasura's maths doesn't really support what you seem to say either.


Really? You think using 6-9 lascannon shots to take out a 3 hp vehicle with no cover or jink is a good use of points? I didn't think any other math was required. It takes around 12 BS 4 lascannon shots to kill a Riptide sporting only the 5+++. How are you going to get these 12 uncontested shots off, given the first thing it'll probably do is melt your dev squad? That's with no FNP , no ruins, and no super shield.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 20:52:04


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
You haven't given any maths at all. I can't dispute what isn't there. Akiasura's maths doesn't really support what you seem to say either.


Really? You think using 6-9 lascannon shots to take out a 3 hp vehicle with no cover or jink is a good use of points? I didn't think any other math was required.

Depends on the vehicle. I doubt maths will actually help considering how you're viewing things.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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Then post something and convince me. Just don't say "It's good!" without explaining how or why.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Honestly you won't be convinced by anything I say because you're too busy being irrationally bitter about a game. My point is not all these things are good. My point is that they're not as terrible as you think and that you're logic is incredibly flawed. Not being as good as the cheesiest combo's in the game does not make things bad just not OP.

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Honestly, part of th reason Imperial heavy weapons other than grav-cannons are bad is that they can't reliably deal with the really tough Monstrous and Gargantuan Creatures that are popping up everywhere. There just isn't the weight of fire required to kill something with cover or an invulnerable save with 4+ wounds and high T if you're not using grav weapons.

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pm713 wrote:
Honestly you won't be convinced by anything I say because you're too busy being irrationally bitter about a game. My point is not all these things are good. My point is that they're not as terrible as you think and that you're logic is incredibly flawed. Not being as good as the cheesiest combo's in the game does not make things bad just not OP.


You're arguing semantics. To me, the best stuff is adequate and the rest is junk. Consequently, I have a codex of junk from my point of view. Standard imperial heavy weapons are indeed just as terrible as I think in that they can't get the job done in a reasonable amount of game turns. That's a benchmark that is universally understandable because we are all targeting the same things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 21:23:36


 
   
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That doesn't seem wrong to you? That the BEST is your mediocre....

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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pm713 wrote:
That doesn't seem wrong to you? That the BEST is your mediocre....


Not given how often I go up against grav cannons, scatterlasers, HYMP, and D-cannons. Lascannons are the rarity because everyone knows they're bad in my group.
   
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So I'll be honest I stopped reading a lot of that back and forth.

Wanted to comment on lascannons tho. They are not meant to take out heavy armor like you guys are talking about.

Lasconnas are meant for MCs, light armor, and heavy infantry.

SMs have many better options to take out heavy armor.

Also.. heavy bolters are not meh... They are amazing anti troops s5 means your wounding xenos on 2s MEQs on 3s. And there are so many platforms to take them.

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 Grizzyzz wrote:
So I'll be honest I stopped reading a lot of that back and forth.

Wanted to comment on lascannons tho. They are not meant to take out heavy armor like you guys are talking about.

Lasconnas are meant for MCs, light armor, and heavy infantry.

SMs have many better options to take out heavy armor.

Also.. heavy bolters are not meh... They are amazing anti troops s5 means your wounding xenos on 2s MEQs on 3s. And there are so many platforms to take them.


But lascannons aren't good at those jobs, either.

Heavy bolters are bad because they are one STR short of the 7th ed sweet spot, S6. And they lack a shot compared to real high ROF weapons.
   
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What do you mean? Lascannons wound most MCs on 2s.. and insta glance av10.. and at 48"



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again. Most armies aside from eldar don't have s6 in mass.. s5 is very viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 21:53:22


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Lascannons are debatable against MC's because they're single shot so you need a few to do the job quickly. Personally I don't find them that bad.

I've never been disappointed by a Heavy Bolter against Xenos. We come again to the difference between not best and not good.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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 Grizzyzz wrote:
So I'll be honest I stopped reading a lot of that back and forth.

Wanted to comment on lascannons tho. They are not meant to take out heavy armor like you guys are talking about.

Lasconnas are meant for MCs, light armor, and heavy infantry.

I don't know what you mean by meant.
Do you mean according to the fluff? This is debatable, but I always see them being used against the heaviest of the heavy.
Do you mean being effective on the table top? Because in that case...no.

Again, for a simple Av 12 3HP tank, it takes over 6 lascannon shots to destroy one. If the tank is in cover, 5+, it goes up to about ~8-9. For 1 tank.
9 lascannons is absurd to remove 1 tank a turn. That's 2 devastator squads. Those will never make their points back, assuming the enemy doesn't remove them. 9 Meltas will do a lot better job, since they have a better AP and roll an additional dice if under a certain range. Not to mention that lascannons are on immobile platforms, or at the least extremely slow moving.
Most MCs don't have a T about 6 or 7, Str 9 ap 2 isn't needed. Spamming mid strength weapons is superior.
Against flyers this gets even worse, and if they have FnP or an invul, Lascannons look worse. Most of the good MCs can either fly, have FnP, or an invul, or a combination of the 3.

Against heavy infantry...I'm not sure what you mean by heavy. Most heavy infantry is terrible, but lascannons, at best, drop a 2+ save to a invul or cover save. That's good, but with only 1 shot and many units with 2+ now coming with more than one wound and being T5...it's not great.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

SMs have many better options to take out heavy armor.

Most armies have better options to take out armor. Haywire, Melta, Str 6-7 spam, melee, str D, and even plasma in the rear are a lot better than a single shot expensive lascannon.
All of the competitive armies do a lot better than lascannons, and chose to leave them at home. Most of the bad armies don't spam lascannons either, though a few of the worst ones do.
Lascannons and lances are some of the worst weapons in the game for most armored targets or MC's. It's hard to think of worst options unless the item is clearly not intended for that role. I can't think of any role where a lascannon is the best choice in the game, or even 2nd best for the points you have to spend.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Also.. heavy bolters are not meh... They are amazing anti troops s5 means your wounding xenos on 2s MEQs on 3s. And there are so many platforms to take them.

Heavy bolters are easily one of the worst weapons in the game.
You get +12 and 1 shot/str over a storm bolter but lose the ability to move, and the only unit that can take them in mass is the devastator squad. A marine squad will essentially be firing equal damage to 2.5 rapid fire bolters in exchange for 4 marines standing around.
Wounding xenos on 2's is...fine, but bolters do it on 3's and can be spammed. They rarely ignore armor, and when they do cover is only slightly worse if its worse at all, and 3 shots on a heavy weapon with such a weak punch is terrible.
Nobody spams h.bolters in tournaments. Heavy bolters haven't been good...well since 3rd at least. Maybe in earlier editions but not in the last decade.

Heavy bolters need 1 or 2 more shots and shred to be viable. As it is now, they are bad.

I remember someone hear posting an IG list that had a ton of h.bolters and the very first piece of advice given to them was "drop all the h.bolters and literally take anything else".


Edit,
For the people who say lascannons and heavy bolters are good but not great, what do you consider to be bad weapons? Lascannons and H bolters are near the bottom for me, if not THE bottom, so I'd be curious to hear what you think is a worst weapon.
For the record, I think the following are better;
Lascannon;
Grav, Plasma, Melta, Missile Launcher (cheaper usually, though not great), melee attacks, grenades, combi weapons

H.Bolter;
Mass bolters/storm bolters, plasma, flamer, autocannon, assault cannon, grav weapons, special issue bolters, combi weapons

I'm including platforms and point costs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 22:24:05


 
   
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 Grizzyzz wrote:
What do you mean? Lascannons wound most MCs on 2s.. and insta glance av10.. and at 48"



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again. Most armies aside from eldar don't have s6 in mass.. s5 is very viable.


I disagree. Vehemently. See the above post by Akiasura because he's already covered my points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Lascannons are debatable against MC's because they're single shot so you need a few to do the job quickly. Personally I don't find them that bad.

I've never been disappointed by a Heavy Bolter against Xenos. We come again to the difference between not best and not good.


I'm disappointed every time I fire one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 22:31:09


 
   
Made in gb
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That's because your standards are ridiculous rather than the weapon.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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pm713 wrote:
That's because your standards are ridiculous rather than the weapon.


I don't make the rules. GW does.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
That's because your standards are ridiculous rather than the weapon.


I don't make the rules. GW does.

They don't hold a gun to your head, beat you and force you to accept something as standard either. This is entirely on you not GW.

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pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
That's because your standards are ridiculous rather than the weapon.


I don't make the rules. GW does.

They don't hold a gun to your head, beat you and force you to accept something as standard either. This is entirely on you not GW.


No, you're gaming group does that when they decide how competitive they are going to be. If GW could write rules, then you wouldn't be in the situation where some guns (I.e Grav, scatterguns) are leagues ahead of their competition, and also infringe upon other weapons roles as well.

And before you respond with, but you're gaming group can house rule stuff, yes they can, some don't want to, either way a better set of rules would still be conducive to "creative" house ruling, rather than "this needs fixing" house ruling.

As to the topic, the answer is Eldar can do everything competently to amazingly, while other codices, trade one thing for another (I.e Speed, for durability).

Brb learning to play.

 
   
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pm713 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oh I'm sorry I forgot to clarify. I'm used to it just being Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

Scatter lasers and Grav cannons are pretty cheesy and I disagree about the D cannon killing "plenty of stuff" considering it kills 2 models at best.
The problem being that those two models ca be anything from a Stompa or a small Titan on down, potentially without any saves, and does so ignoring toughness, AV, etc.


Could also be 2 Termagants. Either way 2 is not many which is what I meant.
It doesn't need to be many, when they can very easily remove the opponent's strongest and most powerful units (of which they likely don't have very many of).

You're not going to be shooting at termagants with those weapons, you're going to be removing Trygons and the like with them.

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