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Still waiting for a list of weapons that are worse than the lascannon and heavy bolter at their intended roles so we can have an actual discussion about their relative ranking rather than he says she says nonsense.

Akiasura wrote:
Still waiting for a list of weapons that are worse than the lascannon and heavy bolter at their intended roles so we can have an actual discussion about their relative ranking rather than he says she says nonsense.

I tend to think that Reaper Autocannons are worse personally. We pay what? A 150% or so mark-up for, get this, Twin-linked!!
For something that's supposedly meant to be just a step below the Assault Cannon, (as Reapers were the early proto-type), that's a pretty special level of steaming monkey poo...

It sucks, because the Reapers look awesomesauce on our Termies, but they're so laughably overcosted for what they're meant to do, that I feel like the dumbest idiot on the planet every time I play pts for the things.
If they were 4 shots + shread they'd be totally worth it.

Alas, they suffer from the traditional "Chaos can't have nice things" design philosophy.

Don't forget having less range too!

Are we comparing it to lascannons or heavy bolters?

I agree with you that the reaperauto cannon isn't a great weapon, though it is extremely rare since it can only be delivered on one platform.

I still think it'd better than a h bolter though. By a lot. Lascannon...eh you can deep strike the unit taking the reaper in though you'll get more mileage out of the combi weapons than the reaper. Still, it'll cause hp against rear armor faster than a lascannon will.

Heavy bolters can be easily taken in mass whether it be through free razerback in gladious. Or land speeders... Centurians.. Devastators..

The problem is everyone compares everything to a scatter laser. Last I checked that's an eldar thing and well put simply marines and every other army are out of luck on that note.

HB is 22 points which is better then 17 for a marine with storm bolter.. yes it has limited movement but it has range to compensate as well as being ap4




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What is meant to take out heavy armor from marines... Grav, and melta which is hugely accessible.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Heavy bolters can be easily taken in mass whether it be through free razerback in gladious. Or land speeders... Centurians.. Devastators..

Out of all these, only the free razorback is considered good...because it's free. Any weapon is good when it's free.
Land speeders are usually seen with the melta or flamer. The flamer, in one volley, can cause more hits than a h bolter can see over three rounds, and the speeder can get in good positions to deliver the template.
Centurions are never seen with h bolters...the bolter and Grav cannon with amps is so far above every build its not worth discussing.
Devastators lack movement, but outside of the free transport formation, are the only viable way to mass h bolters.

Devastators themselves are not what I would consider a strong choice, but let's see how they do against a geq in cover.
2/3 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/3 through cover. 20/54. So a h bolter will kill one geq per round. If this is guard, it can take 4 rounds of shooting to pay for itself. Against Eldar or tau, it's about 2.
Let's look at meq.
2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 armor. 4/27. It takes two h bolters to cause a single wound per turn. A dev squad can expect to be killing 2-3 marines per turn per squad, which is pretty fragile.
Against Mc or tanks, the h bolter does pretty terrible since it lacks str 6 or 7.

So there is one target type it does well against, Eldar or tau troops lacking 3+ saves and buffs, and a host of targets it's bad against. None of those targets are very important in the armies they are in either.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

The problem is everyone compares everything to a scatter laser. Last I checked that's an eldar thing and well put simply marines and every other army are out of luck on that note.

This isn't true at all, most of the weapons I am comparing them to come from the imperial army. Plasma guns and Grav weapons being the biggest offenders, but special issue bolters are quite strong as well. Flamers are also a lot better. The large blast weapons can do more in a turn then what h bolters manage all game.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

HB is 22 points which is better then 17 for a marine with storm bolter.. yes it has limited movement but it has range to compensate as well as being ap4

Hm, not a heavy weapon but they are about equally effective. The 36" range is pretty bad, and you can't pod them in or keep them in transports. Devastators are the only place you'll put a h bolter, so to me its worse than a storm bolter, but neither are good. The fact it's a debate is pretty damning.

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What is meant to take out heavy armor from marines... Grav, and melta which is hugely accessible.

 Melissia wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Sisters would get more complaints

That statement wasn't about Sisters players complaining. It was people saying Sisters players complain too much, even though Marine players do almost nothing BUT complain, and we don't actually have many threads where Sisters players complain.

The only person complaining about marines here is you, ironically complaining that they complain too much. Haven't seen anyone say that sisters players complain too much, but I'd say you complain about stupid things a lot


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Back on topic, if you want games, you should only run rangers and guardians plus 1 aspect squad. If you think your rejection for games is bad, the 2 gaming clubs around here has flat out banned Eldar, and I'm sure you can find many more instances online. If you want to play Eldar, go ahead, just don't come crying when your entire army becomes invalidated. Not many people want to waste 3 hours giving Eldar players the satisfaction of auto-stomping them.

Also, don't spew that stuff about collecting them earlier. They've been the definitive overpowered army 7 editions straight.

Good luck on getting games with your 20 new fancy jetbikes. You might be the straw that gets Eldar banned in your area.

And the people who don't walk away from 40k due to the crap GW keeps pulling, end up being chased off by people like kburn instead. Not hard to see why 40k is fething dying.

Akiasura wrote:

If we start mathhammering we will be here all day. A squad of bolter marines in rapid fire range kills 7 guard. Outside about 3.. the devestator squad takes out 4 and out of threat range.

This is off the OP topic so I will stop here. I guess in my meta heavy bolters seem to do really well. I would imagine against WK spam meta it wouldnt (for example). Huge success with HB, Missle centurians out of Imperial fists. You will shred light armor.

Think op left long time ago

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

If we start mathhammering we will be here all day.

Not really? There are only 2 relevant target types that you'll fire them again. Meqs and Geqs, with the latter, if they are expensive enough, being the only target worth firing at.
It literally took me 2 minutes to run those numbers, it's extremely easy math. Standard deviations would help, but that's more complicated.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

A squad of bolter marines in rapid fire range kills 7 guard. Outside about 3.. the devestator squad takes out 4 and out of threat range.

Let's be clear, if you are coming up equal or lower to bolter marines at any point, and are more expensive, stop. Tacticals, offensively, are extremely weak. You do not see competitive lists take them at all, or at most, a small min squad to pod in to claim an objective or remove a tank.
To me, 1/3 of your points per turn is the minimum of acceptable for a unit that is about firepower. There are few targets where devs armed with heavy bolters manage that, and many more common (and relevant) ones where they do not manage that. Maybe your bar for success is different than mine, and that's fine. That seems to be the litmus test if a unit is competitive or not, but that's strictly imo.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

This is off the OP topic so I will stop here. I guess in my meta heavy bolters seem to do really well. I would imagine against WK spam meta it wouldnt (for example). Huge success with HB, Missle centurians out of Imperial fists. You will shred light armor.

If your meta features eldar troops, tau troops, and nid swarms, I can see bolters doing well. Those units are not powerful, mostly (some aspect warriors are but they have 3+ saves or fly or have stealth rules) so claiming HBs are great isn't true. With tank hunter, they do okay against light armor (shred is a bit much, it still isn't great and you're better off with the other options marines have for armor) but missile cents are downright awful and inferior to grav cents in nearly everyway.

But I'm not trying to change your mind, I just wouldn't go around saying H. Bolters are amazing if you can't back it up. Also, don't assume everyone is comparing it to a scat laser. I don't appreciate strawmans.

I made a list of weapons from the start.

Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

SM devs can't get autocannons. Because they are losers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

Which doesn't make any sense from a balance perspective

Heavy Bolter - 36" range, S5 AP4, Heavy 3

Autocannon - 48" range, S7 AP4, Heavy 2

The autocannon trades 1 shot for 12" range and +2 strength, and its the same price as the HB.
There is no reason to not take an autocannon over the HB. Yeah, you'll kill 1 less guy, but thanks to the long range you'll get another chance or two to fire, and the high strength not only increases the chances of wounding, but it also
gives light AT capability.


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Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

SM devs can't get autocannons. Because they are losers.

Havocs get reaper autocannons. I guess that's one good thing about CSM

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

Which doesn't make any sense from a balance perspective

Heavy Bolter - 36" range, S5 AP4, Heavy 3

Autocannon - 48" range, S7 AP4, Heavy 2

The autocannon trades 1 shot for 12" range and +2 strength, and its the same price as the HB.
Their is no reason to not take a autocannon over the HB. Yeah, you'll kill 1 less guy, but thanks to the long range you'll get another chance or two to fire, and the high strength not only increases the chances of wounding, but it also
gives light AT capability.


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Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

SM devs can't get autocannons. Because they are losers.

Havocs get reaper autocannons. I guess that's one good thing about CSM

Add it to the list.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

Which doesn't make any sense from a balance perspective

Heavy Bolter - 36" range, S5 AP4, Heavy 3

Autocannon - 48" range, S7 AP4, Heavy 2

The autocannon trades 1 shot for 12" range and +2 strength, and its the same price as the HB.
There is no reason to not take an autocannon over the HB. Yeah, you'll kill 1 less guy, but thanks to the long range you'll get another chance or two to fire, and the high strength not only increases the chances of wounding, but it also
gives light AT capability.


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Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: a Heavy Bolter is the same price as an Autocannon. What are you REALLY going to buy?

SM devs can't get autocannons. Because they are losers.

Havocs get reaper autocannons. I guess that's one good thing about CSM

Except that only BA's for the moments are even remotely jealous about that...
Vanilla's & DA's get Grav Cannons w/amps, while Wolves have Long Fangs that get Split Fire. Besides, odds are that BA's will get a codex update at some point next year that'll give them access to all the basic Marine changes.

You know what Chaos isn't getting next year? Any kind of attention from GW.

And besides, when the badly outclassed Autocannon is considered your crowning glory, you know your army is only 3+ entire editions behind the rest of the game.

Are eldar anything like fantasy's 8th edition wood elves where you pretty much had to cater your army against wood elves to win even when making an 'all-comers' list in your own time?

The sheer range of scatterbikes and the idea jetbikes can move in assault even if they shoot in the shooting phase just sounds pretty ridiculous considering the scatter-bikes range. I'm not totally aware of all the stuff but I know a guy that was getting into eldar after playing space wolves and went for probably a complete scatter-bikes list. Should I have hit this guy for being such a cheese-monger? I wasn't playing him but from what I've heard about eldar he probably should've been taken out back and been beaten by everybody in the store.

To be fair, it is the cheapness of the Autocannon that appeals to me. 115 points gets you plenty of shots and you simply camp in cover. If they were any more expensive, I'd say I'd never take them.

So also to be fair, Grav Cannons are only good with that formation, but they're still ridiculous. When you take a full squad and Combat them into 2 Cannons a Squad, you're pinning and killing lots of targets.

Akiasura wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

If we start mathhammering we will be here all day.

Not really? There are only 2 relevant target types that you'll fire them again. Meqs and Geqs, with the latter, if they are expensive enough, being the only target worth firing at.
It literally took me 2 minutes to run those numbers, it's extremely easy math. Standard deviations would help, but that's more complicated.

My point being. We can sit here and draw numbers for countless weapons in the game that can be better or worse in numerous scenerios.

Akiasura wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

A squad of bolter marines in rapid fire range kills 7 guard. Outside about 3.. the devestator squad takes out 4 and out of threat range.

Let's be clear, if you are coming up equal or lower to bolter marines at any point, and are more expensive, stop.

If you can remove cover (through psychic) or catch troops in the open the HBs suddenly become much better then that of a marine bolter. And they are out of range of most threats. Where a bolter marine crew won't kill their target and is left in the open nearby.

Akiasura wrote:
claiming HBs are great isn't true. With tank hunter, they do okay against light armor (shred is a bit much, it still isn't great and you're better off with the other options marines have for armor) but missile cents are downright awful and inferior to grav cents in nearly everyway.

Again it comes down to scenerio. Fire them into MEQs meh results but better then some other choices. Fire them at geqs, decent results. Additionally I find them very useful against cron warriors who tend to March across the table.

Akiasura wrote:
But I'm not trying to change your mind, I just wouldn't go around saying H. Bolters are amazing if you can't back it up. Also, don't assume everyone is comparing it to a scat laser. I don't appreciate strawmans.

Not sure how me supplying scenerios where I have had success with a weapon that's fairly costed and available on multiple platforms is strawman ing.. I assume comparison to scatter lasers because of the track record of this entire thread comparing everything to mass s6.

Centurians dev squad with tank hunter effectively at 36" will cause 3 glances and 2 pens on av10 armor. On an average cover of 5+ your going to wreck most vehicles. I'm not saying your going to take out land raiders with the things, but against many light vehicles or rear armor targets your going to do some work. Again.. my experience though. My DE and ork friends hated me when I ran sentinals of terra, as some examples for good matchups.

Being at a safer distance means you can build up your points return over the course of the game rather then trying to get your points back in one go.

I'm still amazed that PacificRimJob is an allowable alias, when the word that would be donkey cave is banned. Do people not know what that means?

Alcibiades wrote:
I'm still amazed that PacificRimJob is an allowable alias, when the word that would be donkey cave is banned. Do people not know what that means?

Idk what the Pacific version is.. maybe it's fine

It makes me chuckle


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 Grizzyzz wrote:
[
Idk what the Pacific version is.. maybe it's fine

Sone kind of Thai massage thing.

Sidstyler wrote:And the people who don't walk away from 40k due to the crap GW keeps pulling, end up being chased off by people like kburn instead. Not hard to see why 40k is fething dying.

Exalted. I also get the distinct feeling that he has never played against properly supported Guardian squads either. Heavy Weapon plus eighteen Bladestorm shots that can potentially re-roll to-hit and to-wound will put the hurt on virtually anything.

As far as the discussion of weapons goes, the problem is not with the Scatter Laser itself. It is basically a Multilaser with one more shot and an extra point of AP. The loss of Laser Lock has also dramatically reduced its efficiency on vehicles as a primary weapon. By themselves, Scatter Lasers on Wave Serpents/Falcons, Vypers, War Walkers, and certain Wraith units are not the problem. The problem lies in Eldar having one supremely undercosted platform for the Scatter Laser, namely the Windrider Jetbike. In short, the problem with Scatbikers is their nature as a platform, not the weapons they can carry.

I'm sorry Grizyzz, but what gakky Necron player isn't using cover for the Warriors or running them in Ghost Arks?

Over in the Tau HRR Tactica thread, HRRs are bad because over 36" range is worthless. Here, autocannons are way better than HBs because of the extra range.

Alcibiades wrote:
Over in the Tau HRR Tactica thread, HRRs are bad because over 36" range is worthless. Here, autocannons are way better than HBs because of the extra range.

Aren't HRR rifles bad because they are outperformed in most cases by HYMPs, which have a drastically higher rate of fire, and within the glance-to-death sweet spot?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry Grizyzz, but what gakky Necron player isn't using cover for the Warriors or running them in Ghost Arks?

Easy.. blow up the ark. Now the guys are out in the open. Maybe it's maelstrom and he had to grab objectives not in cover . It's too situational to answer your remark. All I said was HB I again have had success with against crons because of their ap4 and range.




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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Over in the Tau HRR Tactica thread, HRRs are bad because over 36" range is worthless. Here, autocannons are way better than HBs because of the extra range.

Aren't HRR rifles bad because they are outperformed in most cases by HYMPs, which have a drastically higher rate of fire, and within the glance-to-death sweet spot?

In general yes. HRR surprisingly outperform against 3+ MCs.


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At least the wraithknight

LOL'd at "Easy. Blow up the Ark".

AV13 that can Jink to anything dangerous isn't something you just "blow up".

Exactly, AV13 with a 4+ save and 4HP's (for god knows what reason) is not exactly the easiest thing in the world to "just blow up"...