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If I fire and-cannon at a imperial knight is it to my understanding that it would get no save.?

This question is best answered by looking at the "Destroyer" rule in the rulebook. That rule explains the circumstance under which targets of the destroyer weapon do or do not get saves.

Pythius Primus wrote:
This question is best answered by looking at the "Destroyer" rule in the rulebook. That rule explains the circumstance under which targets of the destroyer weapon do or do not get saves.

well what I mean is since its barrage the blast counts as coming from the top, so there would be no cover save from the shot and also it says that it counts as hitting the side armour, now that brings me to another question. If let's say you place your Knights shield on the left side and I hit you with the d-cannon what side does it hit on.? The right side or left.? I dosent say. Like you could be like my shield is in the left and I say ok my d-cannon hit your right side.. Can't seem to find anywhere that states what happens, I would say that the knight doesn't get a save

For barrage and ion shields:
Barrage simply hits the side armor with no specific side, ion shields do not get a save.

Is there a specific weapon you're talking about here? A weapon with D strength is not automatically a Barrage weapon. A weapon must have the Barrage type to be a Barrage weapon. Blast is not Barrage either. If the weapon IS barrage, then whether or not the enemy model gets a cover save will be determined by the direction of the blast, and whether or not you roll a "6" for your destroyer hit (check the rulebook on Destroyer weapons).

As for what happens when a Barrage weapon hits a Knight who has chosen their "right" arc to have a shield? You'll need to discuss this with your opponent, because you're right in that the rulebook does not properly explain what happens. It simply says "strikes the side armour".

My personal opinion would be that you check to see whether or not you get a save based on the position the attack is coming from, and when you roll for armour penetration you substitute the side arc's armour value for whatever arc was actually hit. For whether or not you get a save, use the arc that was actually hit. However, there are people that will swear until they're blue in the face that this doesn't work.

So yeah, discuss ahead of time if this is a situation that could happen during your game.

There's two possible answers to this.

This is one of those rules (ion shields) that was written independently of this major rule it interacts with, giving no thought how they would work.


Anyhow your first solution. Talk it out with your opponent before the game.

The simple solution is. Barrage says it hits side armor. Not side arc/facing. Regardless if your template clips the front rear left side right side or rear it hits Side Armor.

So the simple way to play this is this what facing the shot comes from per the rules. IE if you're making "cover saves" from the center of the template, and it lands in front, ion shield is on the front, the knight gets its save for for the ion shields, if failed hit is resolved against model side armor. If it lands on the rear side of the knight, the shield is on the left side or front, no shield save and hit is resolved against side armor.

If it's a direct hit Dead center of the knight. Play it from the facing the shot came from, or roll for it.


Solution 2? Roll 6s and ignore the shield completely. :p

 Yarium wrote:
Is there a specific weapon you're talking about here? A weapon with D strength is not automatically a Barrage weapon. A weapon must have the Barrage type to be a Barrage weapon. Blast is not Barrage either. If the weapon IS barrage, then whether or not the enemy model gets a cover save will be determined by the direction of the blast, and whether or not you roll a "6" for your destroyer hit (check the rulebook on Destroyer weapons).

As for what happens when a Barrage weapon hits a Knight who has chosen their "right" arc to have a shield? You'll need to discuss this with your opponent, because you're right in that the rulebook does not properly explain what happens. It simply says "strikes the side armour".

My personal opinion would be that you check to see whether or not you get a save based on the position the attack is coming from, and when you roll for armour penetration you substitute the side arc's armour value for whatever arc was actually hit. For whether or not you get a save, use the arc that was actually hit. However, there are people that will swear until they're blue in the face that this doesn't work.

So yeah, discuss ahead of time if this is a situation that could happen during your game.

He is specifically talking about the Eldar weapon "D-cannon" or distort cannon. It is a barrage weapon.

FWIW the way my group plays is to use the facing the firing unit is in, regardless of which facing is used for damage.

So, a barrage weapon in the front facing could be saved, if the ion shield is in the front, regardless of where the blast marker ends up.

You pick a side and roll 50/50. It's just that simple.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You pick a side and roll 50/50. It's just that simple.

..and has no bass in the rules, of course. Please mark your post "hywpi" as per the tenets.

It makes the most sense if you stop to think about it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You pick a side and roll 50/50. It's just that simple.

..and has no bass in the rules, of course. Please mark your post "hywpi" as per the tenets.

Ok, so in a tourney, you shoot, hit, I've chosen a side, it has to hit a side, as per rules one weapon can't hit multiple sides.. Game breaks and we can't continue.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It makes the most sense if you stop to think about it.

And is a house rule so don't present it not as such

The rule interaction is technically broken. 2 rules need actual direction of where the shot is coming. 1 rule sets direction to unspecified side.

This is about as close as you can get to RAW . . .

1) To determine a cover save for the vehicle, you use the centre of the blast marker to determine where the shot is coming from, not the firing model.
2) To see if the ion shield offers a save, you use the centre of the blast marker to determine where the shot is coming from, not the firing model.
3) The hit is then resolved against the side armor value of the vehicle for purposes of armour penetration even if it did not in actual fact come from the side.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You pick a side and roll 50/50. It's just that simple.

..and has no bass in the rules, of course. Please mark your post "hywpi" as per the tenets.

There is no trout or tuna in it, either.

For a Barrage, uou only determine cover saves and wounding from the center of the marker. Vehicle use side armor. Ion Shields are set to cover the direction of an attack based on the location of the shooter. This all adds up to Ion Shields work based on where the shooter is, not where the marker lands, while Side AV is always used regardless of facing hit.

Its not that difficult to work out.

SJ

This is much like the Tau 'always hit your rear armour' rule.

Personally, I'd play it like Angelos. You will always hit the side armour value, but whilst barrages hit the side armour value, they must hit a specific facing of the vehicle, even if they don't use that facing's normal armour value (which in and of itself is no different to something like the Lance rule), because that's how you determine if the vehicle gets a cover save from the attack.

The barrage rules tell you how to determine what facing that is - if that facing is also the one protected by the ion shield, I don't see why you wouldn't get a save.

bc GW suk at writing rules.

Well, a knight does not have 'side' armour as most other vehicles do; they are left side, right side so a barrage could never damage a knight RAW. We play it the same way as Happy does though.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Well, a knight does not have 'side' armour as most other vehicles do; they are left side, right side so a barrage could never damage a knight RAW. We play it the same way as Happy does though.

Knights have side armour just like any other vehicle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You pick a side and roll 50/50. It's just that simple.

..and has no bass in the rules, of course. Please mark your post "hywpi" as per the tenets.

The basis is where GW says that, in the event of a rules confusion, you Forge the Narrative(tm) and roll off. It's stupid, but there is a basis for it.

See the tenets of this forum. TMIR just cannot work in a rules debate

 Happyjew wrote:
FWIW the way my group plays is to use the facing the firing unit is in, regardless of which facing is used for damage.

So, a barrage weapon in the front facing could be saved, if the ion shield is in the front, regardless of where the blast marker ends up.

This is not RAW how it works at all. It is the side it hits, NOT the side it is shot from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Well, a knight does not have 'side' armour as most other vehicles do; they are left side, right side so a barrage could never damage a knight RAW. We play it the same way as Happy does though.

lol Um no? Knights have side armor just like every other walker/heavy walker/ vehicles in the game.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
For a Barrage, uou only determine cover saves and wounding from the center of the marker. Vehicle use side armor. Ion Shields are set to cover the direction of an attack based on the location of the shooter. This all adds up to Ion Shields work based on where the shooter is, not where the marker lands, while Side AV is always used regardless of facing hit.

Its not that difficult to work out.

SJ

This is 100% incorrect and HYWPI. The rules for Ion shield CLEARLY say that the ion shield only works for HITS on the specified side. Nowhere is LoS or direction mentioned

Actually, outside of Barrage's funky rules, shooter position is used for determining the Facing of the Vehicle hit, and so used to determine the Ion Shield's availability to Save.

Barrage is a different story, though. All it states is that, "Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.". Not very informative if one side has different opportunities than the other.

Now, right before this, it states to use the center of the Blast Marker for determining Cover Saves. So, using it as a precedence, HRing it to also be used to determine the side of the Ion Shield doesn't take many steps to resolve in a simple manner.

Charistoph wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
For a Barrage, uou only determine cover saves and wounding from the center of the marker. Vehicle use side armor. Ion Shields are set to cover the direction of an attack based on the location of the shooter. This all adds up to Ion Shields work based on where the shooter is, not where the marker lands, while Side AV is always used regardless of facing hit.

Its not that difficult to work out.

SJ

This is 100% incorrect and HYWPI. The rules for Ion shield CLEARLY say that the ion shield only works for HITS on the specified side. Nowhere is LoS or direction mentioned

Actually, outside of Barrage's funky rules, shooter position is used for determining the Facing of the Vehicle hit, and so used to determine the Ion Shield's availability to Save.

Barrage is a different story, though. All it states is that, "Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armour.". Not very informative if one side has different opportunities than the other.

Now, right before this, it states to use the center of the Blast Marker for determining Cover Saves. So, using it as a precedence, HRing it to also be used to determine the side of the Ion Shield doesn't take many steps to resolve in a simple manner.

yes i understand that. I was getting at the point that it is not the LoS that determines if the Knight gets a save, its which side of it is hit, which is NORMALLY from LoS of the shooter, but not always the case (as with barrage)

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
FWIW the way my group plays is to use the facing the firing unit is in, regardless of which facing is used for damage.

So, a barrage weapon in the front facing could be saved, if the ion shield is in the front, regardless of where the blast marker ends up.

This is not RAW how it works at all. It is the side it hits, NOT the side it is shot from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Well, a knight does not have 'side' armour as most other vehicles do; they are left side, right side so a barrage could never damage a knight RAW. We play it the same way as Happy does though.

lol Um no? Knights have side armor just like every other walker/heavy walker/ vehicles in the game.

Huh, it's almost like both I and OIIIIIIO made a HIWPI claim, and not a RAW argument. Oh wait that's exactly what we did.