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 Jancoran wrote:

Makumba wrote:

If they were selling like jetbikes for eldar, and were in almost every chaos list, then it would mean they are good. .

And you see the internetz at work, right here. Lol. Some sheeple's kids.

Too funny.

Statements like this are why it's hard to take you seriously. You don't have to insult people you disagree with.

Unless you are going to claim that the most popular unit in eldar competitive lists, the jetbike w/scat laser, is bad, I don't really see your point in insulting people here.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Makumba wrote:

If they were selling like jetbikes for eldar, and were in almost every chaos list, then it would mean they are good. .

And you see the internetz at work, right here. Lol. Some sheeple's kids.

Too funny.

Statements like this are why it's hard to take you seriously. You don't have to insult people you disagree with.

Unless you are going to claim that the most popular unit in eldar competitive lists, the jetbike w/scat laser, is bad, I don't really see your point in insulting people here.

The irony here is... Pretty ironic.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Makumba wrote:

If they were selling like jetbikes for eldar, and were in almost every chaos list, then it would mean they are good. .

And you see the internetz at work, right here. Lol. Some sheeple's kids.

Too funny.

Statements like this are why it's hard to take you seriously. You don't have to insult people you disagree with.

Unless you are going to claim that the most popular unit in eldar competitive lists, the jetbike w/scat laser, is bad, I don't really see your point in insulting people here.

The irony here is... Pretty ironic.

So...still nothing to contribute beyond insults then?

If you ever get around to writing a batrep that backs up what you're saying, or you have a workable strategy, be sure to let everyone know

Already wrote one. Already filmed one. You didnt like them

Meh.

 Jancoran wrote:
Already wrote one. Already filmed one. You didnt like them

Meh.

I did like the battle reports, quality of writing wise they are fine.

The problem is your opponents write very casual lists and seem to not be the greatest at the game, and we are discussing competitiveness of a unit.
So I'm looking for batreps of mutilators being used to good effect in a 7th edition meta. I think we can agree the power level of many of the newer codexes have escalated, leaving CSM further behind. A 6th edition game against a pretty casual list against a mediocre, at best, player doesn't benefit or back up anything that you're claiming mutilators are capable of.

If you do write one, I'd be interested in reading it. Especially if the opponent is up to par.

I could write one in 2-3 weeks, but it won't be nearly as quality writing as the ones on your blog. Mine tend to read like lab reports.
I have a feeling my chaos will get steam rolled against my friends fists though.

They SHOULD read like lab reports.

I see a thread with Jancoran arguing that a 6" move assault unit isn't bad hasn't disappointed.

I note Jancoran ignored this post from Akiasura (who's posts in this thread have been excellent), so I though i'd repost it.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those weren't games. That was people messing around with "games".

3 Serpents is NOT Mechdar. If you're going to make "unorthodox" battle reports, at least get your bloody facts straight.

Your sad refusal to accept any reason nor any proof nor any anything is what I find the most odd.

It's not proof though. You merely state that they can catch enemies (they being the muties) but aren't really showing how one of the slowest units in the game is able to do so, besides claiming you've done it.

 Jancoran wrote:

Also: I have no idea what you're talking about. Again. Who said a word about Serpents?

This is in regards to one of your battle reports where you faced off against a 6th edition eldar opponent who you claimed was running mechdar.
It's from another thread, and not really relevant to the discussion at hand.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

The problem is people in Jancorans camp just go "Well I made it work in my super competitive meta! I don't have a battle report, or strategy...

Except I did have batreps, did present the strategies and so you are entirely misrepresenting me. As usual. And i suppose that will be the way of it.

Where are the batreps of you using mutilators against 7th edition codexes? The stronger ones, if possible?
I've asked you for batreps constantly, for any of your unorthodox tactics and how they fare against competiive lists, and you have always been unable to provide any. Always.

I've asked how you are going to get the mutilators into combat, since their only effective range is melee and they are incredibly slow, and lack accurate deepstrike. Your response has been...lacking.
You mentioned they draw the fire of 200-300 point units, despite me showing that a ~150 point marine squad can kill one pretty reliably. What 300 point unit that you see on the table is dedicating firepower to this thing, rather than just moving away?

 Jancoran wrote:

You not liking what I have to say doesnt mean I didn't tell you how to do it. And you not appreciating the way to do it is your call. But you were told, you were shown and you choose to reject it. I'm fine with that last part. Just don't go telling people this tripe about not offering any proof or any strategies. I did.

Was this when you mentioned deploying all of them (somehow at the same time) and surrounding the enemy (despite not having accurate deep strike) and chasing them off the board (despite being extremely slow and not that tough)?
Or was it when you mentioned anyone who can't get the above to work lacks intestinal fortitude?

Nothing else I mentioned about previous discussions is false either. Those all happened.



EDIT;
I had a friend design my muties so they match my maulerfiends. They both look like hydras, with several dragon heads coming out of their arms and necks, and the armor looks like its bursting apart.
I would love to field them. My eldar/sm armies look quite boring.

I can't believe that a question about Mutilators being any good went for 6 pages.
They're a strictly assault unit that can never move than 6" in a players whole turn (not counting the charge)... They're the worst unit in the codex.
I could understand someone fielding them just to switch it up in a casual game and doing something different. I could even believe someone saying "I just love the model" (as amazed as I would be that someone actually liked those ugly things!)....

But someone saying that they are a good unit to take on competetive lists from the newer codices ?? Hahahahahahaha

There was a LOT of people talking past each other.

Bartali wrote:
I see a thread with Jancoran arguing that a 6" move assault unit isn't bad hasn't disappointed.

I note Jancoran ignored this post from Akiasura (who's posts in this thread have been excellent), so I though i'd repost it.

Except I responded. So.

What happens here is simple. I say X. someone says "Nuh uh" and demands to know when and how. I already told them when and how. They just are playing obtuse and pretending that I did not. Which leaves YOU thinking I didn't answer a question. If you read the entire thread, as odious as you may find it, you will learn this pattern.

The trouble for me is that I don't particularly care to repeat myself ad nauseum if it can be helped (and sometimes it cant). Akiasura here likes to do this circle thing with me, and I've just not played along anymore. If he wants to discuss this with me, or if anyone does, the first step is listening to what I already said.

The geometry isn't complicated either. There is this thing called a corner. it represents the meeting point of two board edges. When you form a fence around this, the enemy has nowhere to run. Sometimes the units themselves form the corner. In other cases, the corner is literally a board edge. Either way the enemy has nowhere to go.

When that happens, the Mutilators speed becomes a non issue because it doesn't NEED to go very far to start flipping peoples tables over. It couldn't be easier to explain.

The Mutilator is also, if the enemy calls for it, useful as a sync. You flood the enemy with units and they have to choose who to kill. No matter the unit they use to TRY and kill the T5 Mutilator with its 2+ save, the Mutilator will almost never cost more. So if the enemy spends a apir of available units trying, then its death has certainly saved some squishier units some trouble. And this is a win for the Chaos player. Heres why: its a given that those same units the enemy just fuired would have fired at SOMETHING. Given that fairly obvious fact, I think you should be agreeing with me that the inevitable shots they release are far more affordable to the Chaos player if they are into the Mutilator. thus my comment that I really do hope they try and kill him. it's literally no downside for the Chaos player, as the Chaos player would have taken casualties somewhere ANYWAYS. But in this way you absolutely limit the damage.

The Mutilator itself is, if left alive (because shooting wasn't successful) dangerous. It will end tanks. it will end softer units. Its Slow and Purposeful rule gives it the rare ability to push marine units off the board instead of letting them cling to combat. It has some very nice bonus's. The enemy is in a corner so it isn't a question of whether the Mutilator will charge. It is what it will charge.

The Mutilators also hide well and can hang around hidden to take objectives. as the game wears on, the enemy ability to do anything about them diminishes as you'd expect. Such a ploy could force an enemy to have to go track down the lone Mutilator and spend its shooting on the run. Those are all positive outcomes.

The Mutilator is not a superstar so much as it is an extremely affordable ablation tool and its an extremely affordable way to kill a tank. Possibly more than one since squadrons are a thing.

The Mutilator is so few points that its hardly an imposition to any fast list to take.

I happened to use them in an army that can push 11 units into the enemies face all at once. For that reason, the Mutilator does its job admirably. shoot the Mutilator or... the Dirge Caster Rhino? Hmmm... Shoot the Mutilator or the 3+ save Raptors... Hmmm... Shoot the Mutilator o the Obliterators which are probably a lot more of a problem? hmm...

and best of all, it takes an elite slot (currently) so its not like they cost you another unit that was "so much better" for the same points!

I dunno. I've laid it out pretty well.

Yet the only thought anyone here has is that it looks like a paperweight on paper. My question is: Even if that were true it wouldn't erase the virtue I just shared, would it? So dare the enemy not to kill it. If he chooses not to, in it goes to smash something its got cornered. If he does, the Chaos players remaining forces are better off for the distraction.

Out of curiosity, what's the most cost-effective counter to a 61pt Nurgle Mutilator?

Let's say it DS'd successfully, and you have 1 turn to kill it before getting charged.

A splitfiring Centurion should kill it reliably.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Out of curiosity, what's the most cost-effective counter to a 61pt Nurgle Mutilator?

Let's say it DS'd successfully, and you have 1 turn to kill it before getting charged.

Two attack bikes with plasma? They have to hit, not overheat and get through cover/Invuls though. So probably not in one turn. But maybe? And would they be there when the time came?

Skitarii have some 3 shot Plasma weapons but I don't know how small the unit has to be.

An IG command Squad can sport 2 Plasma for like 95 points minimum I think.

Almost all the options are realistically double its points, really, but it can be done.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
A splitfiring Centurion should kill it reliably.

But you have to buy a whole unit. But sure. I don't think we can characterize a unit of Centurions as they would normally be fielded as any kind of cheap solution though. hehehe.

The main unit can fire at something else, while the splitfiring Centurion costs what, 85 points? Looks like an adequate solution to me.

Keep in mind that units that kill their own value in enemy units in one shooting phase are typically considered 'utterly broken'. After all, if your entire army could you'd table your enemy turn 1.

As a comparison, 140 points of Tactical Marines rapid firing at Guardsmen outside of cover (an ideal target in an ideal situation) will kill 40 points of Guardsmen.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The main unit can fire at something else, while the splitfiring Centurion costs what, 85 points? Looks like an adequate solution to me.

It could work. I'm pretty okay with that. Same Centurion would probably kill 3-4 wounds in another unit. So I suppose if push comes to shove, I'd be okay with it. Again assuming he hits, and I fail the saves.

Naturally, the Centurion could roll poorly and the Mutilator survives. Meanwhile the Centurion's two squadmates roll well and delete one of your Raptor squads. Luck goes both ways and shouldn't be relied on to keep your units alive.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Keep in mind that units that kill their own value in enemy units in one shooting phase are typically considered 'utterly broken'.
As a comparison, 140 points of Tactical Marines rapid firing at Guardsmen outside of cover (an ideal target in an ideal situation) will kill 40 points of Guardsmen.

I don't know about utterly broken. Its just a mismatch. Centurion Unit has the right weapon. Yet against Gaunts... not so much. Mismatches happen and you have to look for them where you can.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Naturally, the Centurion could roll poorly and the Mutilator survives. Meanwhile the Centurion's two squadmates roll well and delete one of your Raptor squads. Luck goes both ways and shouldn't be relied on to keep your units alive.

I'm stating fact, not arguing. I agree that it's not a terrible solution at all.

As for the others killing Raptors: irrelevant to the Mutilator.

It is relevant for the Mutilator, because his job is to protect the others as a distraction, no? If the ones he is distracting for die, he becomes a lot less useful.

Centurions are great against just about anything other than light infantry and believe me, SM have lots of other things to deal with light infantry.

The Hurricane Bolters will suffice against Gaunts just fine.

 Jancoran wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I see a thread with Jancoran arguing that a 6" move assault unit isn't bad hasn't disappointed.

I note Jancoran ignored this post from Akiasura (who's posts in this thread have been excellent), so I though i'd repost it.

Except I responded. So.

Not with being on topic, I believe the conversation devolved into vague insults involving questions of fortitude competency.

 Jancoran wrote:

What happens here is simple. I say X. someone says "Nuh uh" and demands to know when and how. I already told them when and how. They just are playing obtuse and pretending that I did not. Which leaves YOU thinking I didn't answer a question. If you read the entire thread, as odious as you may find it, you will learn this pattern.

Actually, you had not.
You were asked how mutilators reach a unit when they are about as slow as it gets in this game. There was no response.
You were asked how mutilators can absorb the firepower of 200-300 point units, when less than 150 seems enough for most armies to kill them. There was no response.
You were asked how you managed to use them effectively against the more competent armies. There was no response.

 Jancoran wrote:

The trouble for me is that I don't particularly care to repeat myself ad nauseum if it can be helped (and sometimes it cant). Akiasura here likes to do this circle thing with me, and I've just not played along anymore. If he wants to discuss this with me, or if anyone does, the first step is listening to what I already said.

I directly quote you and respond piece by piece.
It would be very hard for me to fail to listen to you, and other posters would be quick to point out that what I'm quoting and saying doesn't match up. It would also be very easy for you to do the same.

 Jancoran wrote:

The geometry isn't complicated either. There is this thing called a corner. it represents the meeting point of two board edges. When you form a fence around this, the enemy has nowhere to run. Sometimes the units themselves form the corner. In other cases, the corner is literally a board edge. Either way the enemy has nowhere to go.

So, you are relying on the enemy castling up? The better armies don't really castle (Necrons, Eldar, SM, Tau) save occasionally Tau if they go MC heavy (and they have interceptor, so the mutilators are awful against them). Most of the good armies want to get closer than that, since their guns are relatively close range, or they have excellent assault units.
As for a board edge, that could work, but considering how slow you are the enemy has to be hugging the edge before they have no where to go.
Keep in mind the earliest you can arrive is turn 2, so the earliest you'll assault is turn 3-4. That's half the game where your distraction unit has not been very distracting at all.

 Jancoran wrote:

When that happens, the Mutilators speed becomes a non issue because it doesn't NEED to go very far to start flipping peoples tables over. It couldn't be easier to explain.

It is easy to explain, but that doesn't make it a good strategy.
You rely on the following to make the mutilators work;

1) Enemies are castling up or deploying near a board edge. Given the lack of deepstrike in the chaos army, and the lack of speed on most units, there is little reason to do this. Most armies castle to avoid rear shots on their armor from deepstrikers, or because their enemy is absurdly fast and hard hitting in melee, and every turn is precious. Chaos isn't really like that either, although it can be moderately quick and hard hitting (still loses out to the true stars of melee in this game sadly).

2) Your enemy has no interceptor. You have very little deepstrike, even a little interceptor is enough to obliterate the units that fall

3) Your enemy has big units only that cost 200-300 that the mutilator can threaten effectively so it can serve as a distraction. Considering the better armies run MSU or large deathstars (or worse, both), I don't see this happening.

4) The enemy does not have a unit that can delete the mutilators either through melee or assault that costs 150 points nearby. This one is possible depending on how your enemy places his troops.

5) You manage to deploy enough mutilators on the same turn or the rest of your army is fast enough to threaten the enemy by the time the mutilators arrive to force a fence on the opponent. Chaos is slow and overcosted, so I don't see this as a good strategy against the better armies. YMMV though.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Mutilator is also, if the enemy calls for it, useful as a sync. You flood the enemy with units and they have to choose who to kill. No matter the unit they use to TRY and kill the T5 Mutilator with its 2+ save, the Mutilator will almost never cost more. So if the enemy spends a apir of available units trying, then its death has certainly saved some squishier units some trouble. And this is a win for the Chaos player. Heres why: its a given that those same units the enemy just fuired would have fired at SOMETHING. Given that fairly obvious fact, I think you should be agreeing with me that the inevitable shots they release are far more affordable to the Chaos player if they are into the Mutilator. thus my comment that I really do hope they try and kill him. it's literally no downside for the Chaos player, as the Chaos player would have taken casualties somewhere ANYWAYS. But in this way you absolutely limit the damage.

Well, the downside is that you spent points on the mutilator, and it's dead. I don't know why you consider this dead model better than that dead model, unless they would have caused drastically more wounds if they fired at something else.
The mutilator doesn't have to cost more than the squad doing the killing. Very few squads in the game can remove their points per turn after all, unless they are melee (and will only have a few turns to do so anyway, as compared to ranged). 1/2 to 1/3 is fine, with 1/4 being average, and 1/5 being bad.
So if a unit costs less than 150, firing on the mutilator is a fine use of points. It's the 225 and over where the mutilator starts being cost effective as a distraction, but this is rarely required to remove them.

Take a 10 man marine squad with 2 pgs. This will delete the mutilator.
If firing at regular marines in 5+ cover, they do 1.48 wounds from plasma and 1.78 from the bolters, assuming rapid fire range. This is 3.25 wounds which is actually less points than the mutilator. You save points if they shoot the marines instead.
Outside of cover, it's equal to the mutilators points pretty much.
But it's not better, and certainly not significantly better.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Mutilator itself is, if left alive (because shooting wasn't successful) dangerous. It will end tanks. it will end softer units. Its Slow and Purposeful rule gives it the rare ability to push marine units off the board instead of letting them cling to combat. It has some very nice bonus's. The enemy is in a corner so it isn't a question of whether the Mutilator will charge. It is what it will charge.

So you just assume the shooting wasn't successful, despite the fact marines armed with pgs can do it pretty reliably?
And the enemy is just in a corner why?
And it'll charge anything within 6+2d6 inches of it's deepstriking position one turn later. Because that's all it can reach...which is about as slow as it gets in the game. If for some reason the enemy can't move out of the way, or charge it, or kill it....lot of ifs.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Mutilators also hide well and can hang around hidden to take objectives. as the game wears on, the enemy ability to do anything about them diminishes as you'd expect. Such a ploy could force an enemy to have to go track down the lone Mutilator and spend its shooting on the run. Those are all positive outcomes.

Sure, if they were realistic it would be a lot better.
Mutilators don't hide well, being extremely slow they have issues reaching cover that allows them to hide effectively and are easily one of the worst objective grabbers in the game.
Mutilators don't benefit from cover much, since they have a invul save stock. They really only want to move towards the enemy, since melee is their effective range and they are so slow. They can't waste a turn going any direction but forward.
The enemy's ability to deal with every unit (hopefully) weakens as the game continues. This is not unique to the mutilator, and can't be considered a strength. We'd have to list it for literally every unit in the game.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Mutilator is not a superstar so much as it is an extremely affordable ablation tool and its an extremely affordable way to kill a tank. Possibly more than one since squadrons are a thing.

Squadrons make them more vulnerable, although it does help them work together. It's hard to say what the better way to run them is.

The Mutilator is so few points that its hardly an imposition to any fast list to take.

Akiasura wrote:

So, you are relying on the enemy castling up?

Did I say I was? No. I'm explaining what you wanted me to explain. Corners. Someone does not have to castle up strictly speaking for you to build one for them. All you need is the corner. You can create the corners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

2) Your enemy has no interceptor. You have very little deepstrike, even a little interceptor is enough to obliterate the units that fall

You forgot, apparently, that this means they arent firing at anything else next turn? This is bad for me? I don't think that it is. I think it's exactly why a Mutilator is making its points up. Absorbing it, with or without interceptor, is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


You were asked how mutilators reach a unit when they are about as slow as it gets in this game. There was no response.

That, again, is because i already told you why. You didn't like the answer. You thought asking why again was going to illicit a different answer for some reason. I would suggest that if I tell you that it is excellent for acheiving unit saturation on the enemy's front, that you dont need much imagination to understand what I am saying and why their "lack of speed" you put so much stock in becomes effectively irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

3) Your enemy has big units only that cost 200-300 that the mutilator can threaten effectively so it can serve as a distraction. Considering the better armies run MSU or large deathstars (or worse, both), I don't see this happening.

Just to be clear... You "Dont see" an enemy firing anything over 60 points at it? And those units that are not over 60 points... are going to kill it reliably? All three of them?

That's why you "dont see it happening"? because you think all those little units they have are going to have the complete freedom to target the easy to hide Mutilator and the (lets say) Land Raider or Storm Lord it alighted next to will be disinclined to try and kill it?

Kay.

Let me counter propose this idea: NOT all enemies are MSU. Further, few if any have less expensive units than this one. Almost none of those less expensive units can do it on their own. If several are committed to killing just one Mutilator, how big a sad face do you think I'll be wearing? probably not a very big one, right?

So theres a few isolated units that if given the opportunity could pop him and while that's true and we already know they would be firing at "something", then I am fine with it being the Mutilator.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

5) You manage to deploy enough mutilators on the same turn or the rest of your army is fast enough to threaten the enemy by the time the mutilators arrive to force a fence on the opponent. Chaos is slow and overcosted, so I don't see this as a good strategy against the better armies. YMMV though.

You say that. Yet I'm on top of the enemy in round 2. Thats about as soon as it get in 40K terms, literally. So not slow.

That players don't tend to play faster Chaos armies is another matter. that has nothing to do with Mutilators and everything to do with players making choices. And maybe they want a Chaos army that does different things than mine. Nothing wrong with that. But if they want to find a use for Mutilators: no problem. I've described how. You absolutely can threaten the enemy by the time the Mutilators start dropping. Absolutely done it more times than I need to to show that.

If a two wound t5, 2+ armor is is tough to kill in you meta, then your not playing competitive 40k. Scat bikes, WR, Grav anything, plasma anything will kill that in one turn no problem. Even concentrated bolter or pulse fire will drop that in a turn. Not to mention they are a very slow assault unit, who if they scatter poorly will probably take two turns to get an assault off. They are a bad unit.

Akiasura wrote:


Well, the downside is that you spent points on the mutilator, and it's dead. I don't know why you consider this dead model better than that dead model,

You're probably right, You don't know. And I find that odd.

There is no need to be snide.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Scat bikes, WR, Grav anything, plasma anything will kill that in one turn no problem. Even concentrated bolter or pulse fire will drop that in a turn. Not to mention they are a very slow assault unit, who if they scatter poorly will probably take two turns to get an assault off. They are a bad unit.

Sure. So do it. Fire all those things at the Mutilator.

9 Scatterbikes (3x3) will do the trick like you boast. Reliably kills it. So fire your 243 points in Scatterbikes at the Mutilator and show me how good a general you are. Did you add Warlocks? if so... Well... Better make it 318 or more. But who would do that?

Fire your "concentrated bolters" at it. In your meta you play with what, 5 man Squads? Akiasura here says MSU is all the rage competitively. So you got like 4 shots plus a Plasma. Shouldn't take more than 3 of those to do him in, assuming they can all see him (and hey why wouldn't you be able to?). Whats that in points? 200? 300 if luck doesnt go your way? I dunno. Last time i checked you need more than two Plasma guns to do it. Bolters might tip it over the edge at short range. Not at long range.

Pulse fire? You bet. Takes 50 shots to do it. Assume Rapidfire, that's what? 225 points in Fire Warriors? if they are all close enough and have line of sight? Now we can add markerlights in but then we'd have to include their cost also... So...

Show me the great general you are by expending these amounts of troops to kill the singular Mutilator. These are your examples, not mine. I think they are miraculously good ideas and you should totally do it.

Mutilator value isnt in being unkillable. When was the last thing you saw that was unkillable? Good answer.

Their value is in exhausting your resources and being strong ENOUGH of a threat that you really cant just ignore him lest you want to lose some tanks et al. but if you don't ignore him it costs you more than me and potentially saves more points than he cost in made saves! The economics of war.

Don't use Mutilators. Do use Mutilators. I guess it doesnt matter that much to me. This to me is just an academic thing. I know how to use them. I'm sharing that with you. You don't have to absorb it. But its there.

For the record, the split-fire Centurion will kill a Mutilator, inflicting 2.3 wounds. That is with MoN. MoT shows 2.06 wounds inflicted.

If you honestly thought that the 90 point Centurion cared THAT much about the lost fire power, the other two (assuming minimum size) will kill 7.6 MoN Raptors, and if there's THREE there will be 11 dead.

Tell me what Sun Tzu does to counter THAT, please.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For the record, the split-fire Centurion will kill a Mutilator, inflicting 2.3 wounds. That is with MoN. MoT shows 2.06 wounds inflicted.

If you honestly thought that the 90 point Centurion cared THAT much about the lost fire power, the other two (assuming minimum size) will kill 7.6 MoN Raptors, and if there's THREE there will be 11 dead.

Tell me what Sun Tzu does to counter THAT, please.

Im pretty sure...Slayer-Fan... That i already said...twice... that the Centurion might do it. So. I have no idea why you're ranting.

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Scat bikes, WR, Grav anything, plasma anything will kill that in one turn no problem. Even concentrated bolter or pulse fire will drop that in a turn. Not to mention they are a very slow assault unit, who if they scatter poorly will probably take two turns to get an assault off. They are a bad unit.

Sure. So do it. Fire all those things at the Mutilator.

9 Scatterbikes (3x3) will do the trick like you boast. Reliably kills it. So fire your 243 points in Scatterbikes at the Mutilator and show me how good a general you are. Did you add Warlocks? if so... Well... Better make it 318 or more. But who would do that?

Fire your "concentrated bolters" at it. In your meta you play with what, 5 man Squads? Akiasura here says MSU is all the rage competitively. So you got like 4 shots plus a Plasma. Shouldn't take more than 3 of those to do him in, assuming they can all see him (and hey why wouldn't you be able to?). Whats that in points? 200? 300 if luck doesnt go your way? I dunno. Last time i checked you need more than two Plasma guns to do it. Bolters might tip it over the edge at short range. Not at long range.

Pulse fire? You bet. Takes 50 shots to do it. Assume Rapidfire, that's what? 225 points in Fire Warriors? if they are all close enough and have line of sight? Now we can add markerlights in but then we'd have to include their cost also... So...

Show me the great general you are by expending these amounts of troops to kill the singular Mutilator. These are your examples, not mine. I think they are miraculously good ideas and you should totally do it.

Mutilator value isnt in being unkillable. When was the last thing you saw that was unkillable? Good answer.

Their value is in exhausting your resources and being strong ENOUGH of a threat that you really cant just ignore him lest you want to lose some tanks et al. but if you don't ignore him it costs you more than me and potentially saves more points than he cost in made saves! The economics of war.

Don't use Mutilators. Do use Mutilators. I guess it doesnt matter that much to me. This to me is just an academic thing. I know how to use them. I'm sharing that with you. You don't have to absorb it. But its there.

Assuming it's close enough to charge, then yes lets assume rapid fire range. Again even a tac squad with a grav gun will kill this thing in one turn. A 5 man squad with a plasma and combi plasma will also kill it.
A tac squad with a grav gun isn't the best unit but between the rapid fire bolters and grav it will die. Again that's assuming it lands near anything worth charging due to it having to deep strike. Yes, they are cheap but that's all they have going for it.

I will agree with you on one point, scat bikes won't bother shooting, they will just avoid it since it's painfully slow after deepstrike.

HoundsofDemos wrote:


A tac squad with a grav gun isn't the best unit but between the rapid fire bolters and grav it will die. Again that's assuming it lands near anything worth charging due to it having to deep strike. Yes, they are cheap but that's all they have going for it.

Cheap

Deep Strike

Kill tanks with abandon (4 attacks, Armourbane!)

easy to hide line breakers

Cost way more to kill than they cost.

Wounds saved against other targets due to better toughness and saves.

Overkill wounds are "wasted"

Mutilators use up an underused slot.

So also those things.

and cheap. Yes that too.

If it every catches a tank i'd be amazed, it can only move 6 inches a turn. The only interesting thing it does is a bit of area denial. That might be useful if it wasn't a unit in a meh codex.