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 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't even know the password to my old Skype account.

I've gotten old.

Create a new one. Its free.

Might as well. Eventually. My computer overheats 15 minutes into running a call though haha!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't even know the password to my old Skype account.

I've gotten old.

Create a new one. Its free.

Might as well. Eventually. My computer overheats 15 minutes into running a call though haha!

Have you tried opening the case and clearing the fans and vents of dust/debris? Often older computers work perfectly much better once their cooling systems are cleared out a bit. It's an easy piece of maintenance and there are surely lots of simple guides on the webs you can use.

Had another game today, now against forgeworld Raukaan with a lot of vehicles.



My warlord trait is nightfight once again, i decide to go biomancy now and get iron arm, endurance and haemorrhage on my warlord and iron arm, speed and summoning (daemo) on the 2-d lock.

I win 1-st turn, deploy a bunker in the middle, warlord sorc+spawns on the left flank, other spawns on the right, cultists in ruins, rhino and a chariot up front.

He deploys a knight on my left flank, demolishers a bit left from the center (left from my pov), VSG with a dread on top (didn't know you can do that btw) a bit right of the center, land raiders on each flank - the left one in ruins, the right one near other ruins and infiltrates his scout bikes forward on my right flank for...no particular reason i guess.

CSM Turn 1:
I move aggressively on my right flank and move towards the center with my left spawns as i don't want to get engaged with a knight but want to block it off if needed. Rhino and chariot move forward staying within cover.
Some horrors get spawned, the summoner goes superman rolling a 6. Cast endurance on warlord spawns. Havoks + chariot down void shields and glance a land-raider once.
I perform an amazing 10" charge and murderize scouts.

SM Turn 1:
He moves his knight forward and burns some spawns but endurance helps out. Demolishers kills 2 spawns on the right flank, Mortis dread immobilizes and shakes a rhino - i make a lot of 4+ cover saves thx to nightfight. Landraiders put a wound here and there but cover helps again.

Knight doesn't make a 11" charge.

CSM Turn 2:
I didn't get daemonettes with an icon in turn 2 even with a re-roll, got 3 out of 7 mutilators in and decide to not rush the others. All 3 landed successfully - 2 on the left flank close to a landraider with a techmarine and 3-d near vindicators. Masque that doesn't have targets in this game, deepstrikes close to cultists in a ruin but scatters a lot ending up just about 12" from them - good enough. Right flank spawns push forward towards his demolishers, other spawns and cultists leg it from a knight.
Trying to summon daemonettes with pink horrors but i fail 7 out of 8 4+ rolls, peril and get stripped off their witchfire to boot.
I kill a few scouts with havoks and forget to shoot a chariot. Dance the scouts to 1BS but than forget to run Masque to get closer. I forget a lot of things this turn.
Spawns wreck a vindi and sorc explodes a 2-d one with his melta bomb.

SM Turn 2:
LoTD deepstrike close to a chariot and rhino but get scattered rather far away but get very lucky and end up exactly 1.5" away from my fortification on one side and 1.5" away from spawns on the other. Still within multi-melta range of a chariot.
Knight moves forward trying to threaten spawns and cultists at my backlines.
He had to respond to the threat on the right flank, so he shot at a lone mutilator that landed close to them - it took him shooting from a landraider and a mortis dread to do so. He also kills a few spawns there. Chariot gets exploded by LoTD. I'm fine with it cause he had to choose between a rhino and LoTD and rhino was in a pretty good position to disembark marines to score even though it got immobilized by a dread turn 1. Knight does a few wounds to spawns and kills a bunch of cultists but they pass ld.
He fails a 9" charge towards spawns with his knight.

CSM Turn 3:
I deepstrike daemonettes and 3 more mutilators - forgot about instrument, though - it'd be all 4 otherwise. 1 mutilator mishaps and gets delayed, however the other 3 land in a great position near his VSG and dread just behind a knight that got blocked out by daemonettes so that he couldn't reach mutilators. My left flank spawns rush towards the knight and block it - he's completely surrounded with spawns and daemonettes and there are 2 mutilators within charge reach and 2 other mutilators within a turn of movement towards him if needed be. Warlord sorc doesn't follow them and instead joins cultists to try to kill LoTD.
I summon plague beareres to threaten a right flank landraider. Shoot a few LoTD down.
Mutilators explode a left flank landraider and techmarine+scouts get pinned. Spawns finish off a vindi.

He gets completely surrounded with little hope of turning the tide of battle. Yep, knights can do crazy stuff sometimes but i think that was not the case. We were pretty even on maelstorm for the first 2 turns but i controlled the field on the 3-d. So, he concedes.

I'm pretty sure it's clear that mutilators are good against not very mobile forces. Cause all 3 of my games with them were against non-biker lists. I don't pick matches - that's what i just get so far. Interesting to see how they fare against very mobile stuff.

Akiasura wrote:
Koooaie,
I'd rate warp talons as the worst and possessed as second but it's minor. I'd be surprised to see either accomplish anything.

I've found that Warptalons are decent enough when allied to Daemons.
I use a small unit of 5-6 in my mono-Tzeentch list to help take some of the pressure off the likes of the Lord of Chage & Screamers when it comes to assaults.

Admittedly I play entirely non-"Tournament" competitive, so it's not like I'm taking them up against the likes of Eldar cheese, Decurion/Gladius, Centstar, Tau formations, etc...

Still, they've done decently even against the likes of MSU Marine biker spam, as within a Daemons army, they get all the psychic supports and synergies they could ever want. (and entirely lack within their own book!)
- Instruments + Cursed Earth/Icons gives them the accurate DS they want.
- Divination/Malefic/Grimoire give them the survivability boost and added hitting power through Prescience.
- Typically opponents are far more concerned with the Boomstick LoC (god forbid he gets Precog!) and Screamers soaking up the majority of the enemy's shooting.
- Shread gives the Talons the niche of taking out non-2+ unit with T5 or better, while the LoC + Screamers can munch any 2+ saves well enough.

Sure they should be leagues better than their current rules, but just like the Mutilator, they do have a limited role to play, and I do enjoy using them within the confines of my Tzeenchian legions.

Marine tanks are awful. Vindicators and landraiders are begging to have this exact scenario happen to them. That being said, I could see this working against other lists, but not as consistently.

Well, once again, i don't cherry pick my opponents. That's just what i got.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, once again, i don't pick up my opponents. That's just what i get.

I understand. I'm mostly a bit jealous. I haven't seen a land raider to pick on in so long. Also, I think CSM box-in is something BA would be actually good against. Trying to box in BA doesn't seem like the healthiest move.

Depends on what you're running, really. Ba still require long-range support. I mostly play orks and i know the main weakness of a mediocre assault army. It's not the assault component itself - although, if you're not careful with your assault, it's weak too - it's the backline actually. You can't simultaniously push and protect your backlines. And every time something dangerous lands behind your main front - you got two choices: either send something back and risk not getting into combat with it again, or rush forward and hope that what's left behind will at least take down some of the foes together with them.

I think that that'd be the main purpose of mutilators. Yep, no way you're gona win a fight against a dedicated melee foe unless you're in a very good position with muties. And it really requires the enemy to not have Hit and run. In this case, just try to block their way with spawns or summoned daemonnettes. They'll even kill something in the process. If they don't have hit and run you could tarpit them with spawns and than charge from the side with muties and kill a couple marines.

Anywayz, needs testing. I'm all for it.

 koooaei wrote:
Depends on what you're running, really. Ba still require long-range support. I mostly play orks and i know the main weakness of a mediocre assault army. It's not the assault component itself - although, if you're not careful with your assault, it's weak too - it's the backline actually. You can't simultaniously push and protect your backlines. And every time something dangerous lands behind your main front - you got two choices: either send something back and risk not getting into combat with it again, or rush forward and hope that what's left behind will at least take down some of the foes together with them.

I think that that'd be the main purpose of mutilators. Yep, no way you're gona win a fight against a dedicated melee foe unless you're in a very good position with muties. And it really requires the enemy to not have Hit and run. In this case, just try to block their way with spawns or summoned daemonnettes. They'll even kill something in the process. If they don't have hit and run you could tarpit them with spawns and than charge from the side with muties and kill a couple marines.

Anywayz, needs testing. I'm all for it.

I've stopped using any range support at all. Because those units for BA are bad. It's all plasma guns, grav guns, melta guns, flamers, DC, fragnoughts, and/or archangel sanguine wing. Sometimes I use whirlwinds, but those move with the army. There is no back line for BA.

Than it'd be an interesting test Wana play it out?

 koooaei wrote:
Than it'd be an interesting test Wana play it out?

Sure, let me know how.

Vassal. I can do it now if we make it in 2-3 hours time

 koooaei wrote:
Vassal. I can do it now if we make it in 2-3 hours time

I'm at work; I'd have to do this much later today.

I'll be sleeping much later - you'll need to find another opponent in the mutilator camp.

 koooaei wrote:
I'll be sleeping much later - you'll need to find another opponent in the mutilator camp.

Saturdays?

Might be possible to catch up but can be busy too. Will know only on saturday - will see than.

Got a match planned irl with Chaos orkmarines against sm with new fancy ravenwing strike out of reserves.

 koooaei wrote:
Had another game today, now against forgeworld Raukaan with a lot of vehicles.

Spoiler:

Lists in short.
CSM:
2 biker sorcs, 2x5 Nurgle spawns, melta csm in rhino, cultists, autocannon havoks, 7 solo Nurgle mutilators, Masque of Slaanesh, daemonettes with icon and instrument, Tzeench chariot and Bunker with comms relay and void shield.

Raukaan list:
Master of the forge, 2 min bolter scoust, 3 scout bikes with grenade launchers, melta LoTD, 2 forgeworld land-raiders that are cheaper but not assault, 3 demolishers in a squadron, mortis dread with 12-shot assault cannon, Imperial knight with a hellstorm s7 ap3 flamer and a VSG with 2 shields.

My warlord trait is nightfight once again, i decide to go biomancy now and get iron arm, endurance and haemorrhage on my warlord and iron arm, speed and summoning (daemo) on the 2-d lock.

I win 1-st turn, deploy a bunker in the middle, warlord sorc+spawns on the left flank, other spawns on the right, cultists in ruins, rhino and a chariot up front.

He deploys a knight on my left flank, demolishers a bit left from the center (left from my pov), VSG with a dread on top (didn't know you can do that btw) a bit right of the center, land raiders on each flank - the left one in ruins, the right one near other ruins and infiltrates his scout bikes forward on my right flank for...no particular reason i guess.

CSM Turn 1:
I move aggressively on my right flank and move towards the center with my left spawns as i don't want to get engaged with a knight but want to block it off if needed. Rhino and chariot move forward staying within cover.
Some horrors get spawned, the summoner goes superman rolling a 6. Cast endurance on warlord spawns. Havoks + chariot down void shields and glance a land-raider once.
I perform an amazing 10" charge and murderize scouts.

SM Turn 1:
He moves his knight forward and burns some spawns but endurance helps out. Demolishers kills 2 spawns on the right flank, Mortis dread immobilizes and shakes a rhino - i make a lot of 4+ cover saves thx to nightfight. Landraiders put a wound here and there but cover helps again.

Knight doesn't make a 11" charge.

CSM Turn 2:
I didn't get daemonettes with an icon in turn 2 even with a re-roll, got 3 out of 7 mutilators in and decide to not rush the others. All 3 landed successfully - 2 on the left flank close to a landraider with a techmarine and 3-d near vindicators. Masque that doesn't have targets in this game, deepstrikes close to cultists in a ruin but scatters a lot ending up just about 12" from them - good enough. Right flank spawns push forward towards his demolishers, other spawns and cultists leg it from a knight.
Trying to summon daemonettes with pink horrors but i fail 7 out of 8 4+ rolls, peril and get stripped off their witchfire to boot.
I kill a few scouts with havoks and forget to shoot a chariot. Dance the scouts to 1BS but than forget to run Masque to get closer. I forget a lot of things this turn.
Spawns wreck a vindi and sorc explodes a 2-d one with his melta bomb.

SM Turn 2:
LoTD deepstrike close to a chariot and rhino but get scattered rather far away but get very lucky and end up exactly 1.5" away from my fortification on one side and 1.5" away from spawns on the other. Still within multi-melta range of a chariot.
Knight moves forward trying to threaten spawns and cultists at my backlines.
He had to respond to the threat on the right flank, so he shot at a lone mutilator that landed close to them - it took him shooting from a landraider and a mortis dread to do so. He also kills a few spawns there. Chariot gets exploded by LoTD. I'm fine with it cause he had to choose between a rhino and LoTD and rhino was in a pretty good position to disembark marines to score even though it got immobilized by a dread turn 1. Knight does a few wounds to spawns and kills a bunch of cultists but they pass ld.
He fails a 9" charge towards spawns with his knight.

CSM Turn 3:
I deepstrike daemonettes and 3 more mutilators - forgot about instrument, though - it'd be all 4 otherwise. 1 mutilator mishaps and gets delayed, however the other 3 land in a great position near his VSG and dread just behind a knight that got blocked out by daemonettes so that he couldn't reach mutilators. My left flank spawns rush towards the knight and block it - he's completely surrounded with spawns and daemonettes and there are 2 mutilators within charge reach and 2 other mutilators within a turn of movement towards him if needed be. Warlord sorc doesn't follow them and instead joins cultists to try to kill LoTD.
I summon plague beareres to threaten a right flank landraider. Shoot a few LoTD down.
Mutilators explode a left flank landraider and techmarine+scouts get pinned. Spawns finish off a vindi.

He gets completely surrounded with little hope of turning the tide of battle. Yep, knights can do crazy stuff sometimes but i think that was not the case. We were pretty even on maelstorm for the first 2 turns but i controlled the field on the 3-d. So, he concedes.

I'm pretty sure it's clear that mutilators are good against not very mobile forces. Cause all 3 of my games with them were against non-biker lists. I don't pick matches - that's what i just get so far. Interesting to see how they fare against very mobile stuff.

And it continues. I have a game planned soon against ldar, who will be quite mobile. We shall see what happens. Perhaps I willdo a battle Report.

Please do. I'd like to see how mutilators perform against a more mobile/competitive list.

These reports are interesting, but they aren't telling us anything new. I do love reports in general though

Akiasura wrote:
Please do. I'd like to see how mutilators perform against a more mobile/competitive list.

These reports are interesting, but they aren't telling us anything new. I do love reports in general though

BA are mobile, but not competitive. A useful match up, actually. Does mobility alone ruin the mutilator scheme?

Maybe I'll try Archangel sanguine wing. I recently beat a Necron list to death with that formation. Literally to death. As it turns out, Necron CAD lists can't easily stop 20 FNP marines with power weapons.

No.

The main thing is that if an Eldar Jet bike wants to, it can trek 48" in a turn. So it is pretty much the penultimate in not getting boxed in. It also ignores intervening models, which helps even more compared to normal bike armies.

The disadvantage of actually using that ability is they are..obviously... not firing. So the question for them is, will there be a safe haven to go to and if so will it be safe enough long enough to fire the following turn.

So you predict that the mutilators wreck ba as well?

Martel732 wrote:
So you predict that the mutilators wreck ba as well?

The General matters. the army matters. The terrain matters. So who can tell?

If the enemy army is hell bent on getting into assault with me, then I suppose i'll do okay. if they play to objectives, then who knows? I certainly dont have the shooting in my particular force to scare the Blood Angels (assuming Sanguinary Priests) so a crafty player might realize that and use it to their advantage. I know I would.

Too much of your question relies on a codex and not enough on the strategy. So what does your list do?

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So you predict that the mutilators wreck ba as well?

The General matters. the army matters. The terrain matters. So who can tell?

If the enemy army is hell bent on getting into assault with me, then I suppose i'll do okay. if they play to objectives, then who knows? I certainly dont have the shooting in my particular force to scare the Blood Angels (assuming Sanguinary Priests) so a crafty player might realize that and use it to their advantage. I know I would.

Too much of your question relies on a codex and not enough on the strategy. So what does your list do?

Usually get shot and killed. But if I'm facing a CSM list that can't table me with shooting, then things change a lot. I have multiple lists; some focus on mobile shooting, while my archangels sanguine wing list tries to maximize murder with VV squads that have the free power weapons. Murdering in particular things that threaten my obj sec tac squads. The Stormraven full of combi-melta sternguards has been unpleasant so far as well. That list has enough stuff on the table that I can consider the raven a throw away unit.

Eldar in general are tough for mutilators. Their list is, naturally, the fastest in the game between jet bikes, skimmers, and battle focus. This makes them difficult to pin down for the slow mutilators.

Eldar competitive lists usually feature msu as well. Msu doesn't favor mutilators, since more units are capable of firing and wiping the mutilators. Msu weakens the target saturation strategy while utilizing it as well. It's been around for a very long time because of that. Usually special weapons being tied to squad size reigned this in, but with Eldar that isn't a problem.

Mutilators want slow, expensive, stationary vehicles so they can box them in and punch way above their point value on a good charge. Eldar, for the most part, don't do that (there are reapers and heavy weapon team like units but they aren't seen as the competitive choices). Tbh, stationary expensive tanks aren't seen as competitive in most lists because of their weaknesses, which is one of the reasons mutilators are most likely not seen as strong.

If ig with LRBT were the strongest list in the game, mutilators would be everywhere. Instead, targets that mutilators perform poorly against are the strongest units in the game.

This is why 5 man plague marines with 2 pgs were seen as the competitive options for many editions. If chaos marines could take 2 pgs in a 5 man, you would rarely see cult troops taken.

Akiasura wrote:
Eldar in general are tough for mutilators. Their list is, naturally, the fastest in the game between jet bikes, skimmers, and battle focus. This makes them difficult to pin down for the slow mutilators.

Eldar competitive lists usually feature msu as well. Msu doesn't favor mutilators, since more units are capable of firing and wiping the mutilators. Msu weakens the target saturation strategy while utilizing it as well. It's been around for a very long time because of that. Usually special weapons being tied to squad size reigned this in, but with Eldar that isn't a problem.

Mutilators want slow, expensive, stationary vehicles so they can box them in and punch way above their point value on a good charge. Eldar, for the most part, don't do that (there are reapers and heavy weapon team like units but they aren't seen as the competitive choices). Tbh, stationary expensive tanks aren't seen as competitive in most lists because of their weaknesses, which is one of the reasons mutilators are most likely not seen as strong.

If ig with LRBT were the strongest list in the game, mutilators would be everywhere. Instead, targets that mutilators perform poorly against are the strongest units in the game.

This is why 5 man plague marines with 2 pgs were seen as the competitive options for many editions. If chaos marines could take 2 pgs in a 5 man, you would rarely see cult troops taken.

Plague marines would still be popular because they are hard as nails. Their FNP is hard to deny and poison melee weapons are very useful in MC-40K.

My BA lists have nothing stationary, nothing slow, and nothing expensive. This should be interesting. I wonder if this is gonna be like GK games where I'm running away shooting grav and MM.

I disagree. For their points, PMs are only slightly tougher than marines in regards to shooting. They are much better at shooting however, point for point.

I could take 3 squads of marines with rhinos/pgs for every 2 plague marines. It'd be much easier to saturate the board with with plasma, havok launchers, and armor opening up a lot of possibilities.

This is largely pointless since chaos will never get the ability to take 5 man troops with 2 special weapons.

Akiasura wrote:
I disagree. For their points, PMs are only slightly tougher than marines in regards to shooting. They are much better at shooting however, point for point.

I could take 3 squads of marines with rhinos/pgs for every 2 plague marines. It'd be much easier to saturate the board with with plasma, havok launchers, and armor opening up a lot of possibilities.

This is largely pointless since chaos will never get the ability to take 5 man troops with 2 special weapons.

I didn't realize the point gap was that large. I'd probably do that too, then.

Another problem with plague marinesis that they require a lord to unlock. Lords are good but i generally prefer sorcs for the possibilities they open with psy powers. Fearless and poisoned knifes are great though.

Fearless is a BIG reason why I went away from Sorcerers. A fearless lord made an enormous difference in the Raptor squads I use. While expensive, their job isn't to "win" every combat (although they win some obviously). Their purpose is just to kleep the enemy where I want it. Board control more or less.

I'm running them with spawns atm, so fearless is not a problem. Raptors look cool though.