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sirlynchmob wrote:

Relapse wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Illiegal gun owned by a drug dealer with a record? No surprises how this turned out.

how does the legality of the gun influence the outcome? We both know there are hundreds of cases where legally owned firearms are used to defend the castle while shooting the family that lives there.

I heard a noise, I shot them, oh gak it was my wife/kid/dog.

We also know there are literally tens of thousands of cases yearly where alcohol contributes to someone getting killed when they're out for a drive, yet the media loses no chance to broadcast gun related deaths while pretty much ignoring those caused by alcohol. The media goes on to glorify alcohol use, in fact, even though far more people die because of it and 2 out of 3 domestic abuse cases are alcohol related. This is why I get jaded about "guns iz evil" threads.

but the alcohol problem is well addressed, we have many organizations that platform against drunk driving. MADD, DADD, SADD, ETC. they also show commercials about DUI checkpoints and how they can ruin your life. And we actually passed laws and regulations holding bar owners accountable, setting lower BAC levels, and having DUI checkpoints. laws and regulations are saving lives.

Some fun facts for you:
the reason 2 out of 3 people die in domestic abuse cases is because there are guns in the house.
this year in america more people will die from gun violence than from all car fatalities.

the war against alcohol is winning, while the blind eye is turned towards gun violence.

Sources?

Relapse wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Relapse wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Illiegal gun owned by a drug dealer with a record? No surprises how this turned out.

how does the legality of the gun influence the outcome? We both know there are hundreds of cases where legally owned firearms are used to defend the castle while shooting the family that lives there.

I heard a noise, I shot them, oh gak it was my wife/kid/dog.

We also know there are literally tens of thousands of cases yearly where alcohol contributes to someone getting killed when they're out for a drive, yet the media loses no chance to broadcast gun related deaths while pretty much ignoring those caused by alcohol. The media goes on to glorify alcohol use, in fact, even though far more people die because of it and 2 out of 3 domestic abuse cases are alcohol related. This is why I get jaded about "guns iz evil" threads.

but the alcohol problem is well addressed, we have many organizations that platform against drunk driving. MADD, DADD, SADD, ETC. they also show commercials about DUI checkpoints and how they can ruin your life. And we actually passed laws and regulations holding bar owners accountable, setting lower BAC levels, and having DUI checkpoints. laws and regulations are saving lives.

Some fun facts for you:
the reason 2 out of 3 people die in domestic abuse cases is because there are guns in the house.
this year in america more people will die from gun violence than from all car fatalities.

the war against alcohol is winning, while the blind eye is turned towards gun violence.

Sources?

http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0023655/m0023655.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-19/american-gun-deaths-to-exceed-traffic-fatalities-by-2015

and

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm

Pretty wild. Seems odd Meiko wasn't hurt while killing the intruder who was firing at him, his brother, and his friend. Plus whatever happened to the possible second intruder.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Even though this guy was pretty much a criminal, does that mean he doesn't have the right to defend himself?

He absolutely has a right to defend himself. He just does not have the right to own a gun

But the other, badder guys have guns. Shouldn't he need a gun to defend himself against them?

Ah, Bloomberg and Wikipedia, those bastions of truth.

It's on the internet so it must be true

is any source in america not biased? but anyways, glad to see you guys won't even look at the cdc numbers.

About 60% or more of gun deaths are suicides, though. If you are talking strictly homicides, then it's pretty much the same numbers the same as drunk drivers killing people.
The fact remains, as I say, that the media promotes the use of alcohol. Pretty ironic, considering 88,000 people a year die from alcohol related causes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
is any source in america not biased? but anyways, glad to see you guys won't even look at the cdc numbers.

You mean like this one that cites 21,000 firearm deaths as suicide?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

Relapse wrote:
About 60% or more of gun deaths are suicides, though. If you are talking strictly homicides, then it's pretty much the same numbers the same as drunk drivers killing people.
The fact remains, as I say, that the media promotes the use of alcohol. Pretty ironic, considering 88,000 people a year die from alcohol related causes.

and the media promotes guns as well. did you have a point there?

the fact remains, there are many organizations working to reduce alcohol related deaths, whereas the NRA is actively advocating more guns and the great lie that more guns makes you safer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:

You mean like this one that cites 21,000 firearm deaths as suicide?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

yes, like I said before, you should give up your guns. easy access to guns makes killing people easier, yourself included.

If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.
How about this statistic of emergency room visits by minors?
Close to 190, 000 yearly:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm

Deaths and other nastiness from alcohol:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Relapse wrote:
If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.
How about this statistic of emergency room visits by minors?
Close to 190, 000 yearly:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm

so 21,000 deaths by gun

4,300 deaths from alcohol poisoning.

It's like your proving my point

sirlynchmob wrote:

Relapse wrote:
If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.
How about this statistic of emergency room visits by minors?
Close to 190, 000 yearly:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm

so 21,000 deaths by gun

4,300 deaths from alcohol poisoning.

It's like your proving my point

Not really, since you skipped the 88,000 alcohol related deaths part and are ignoring the fact that those deaths were all suicides.


Homicides, a little over 11,000:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Relapse wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Relapse wrote:
If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.
How about this statistic of emergency room visits by minors?
Close to 190, 000 yearly:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm

so 21,000 deaths by gun

4,300 deaths from alcohol poisoning.

It's like your proving my point

Not really, since you skipped the 88,000 alcohol related deaths part and are ignoring the fact that those deaths were all suicides.

edit faster , but the fact still remains were taking action against the alcohol related deaths part, yet doing nothing against gun violence. how about a guns anonymous group? or a add campaign, this is a gun, this is your brains after using a gun? or a hotline, do you feel like shooting people, call this hotline.

Watching any sports event is a great example of the hypocracy of the media. includes seeing multiple advertisements telling us how great, fun, or glamorous it is to be drinking one brand or another of alcohol. I don't believe I have seen any advertisements for guns on network television sports.

Relapse wrote:
Watching any sports event is a great example of the hypocracy of the media. includes seeing multiple advertisements telling us how great, fun, or glamorous it is to be drinking one brand or another of alcohol. I don't believe I have seen any advertisements for guns on network television sports.

why pay to advertise guns, when the news does that for you daily for free. bring on the experts "more guns" bring on the politicians "more guns" check out black friday, yeah we sold more guns

And you never will. Because to people that no nothing about guns they are evil.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Allegedly engaged in criminal activity.

So the gun wasn't really in his possession? I understand that a person is innocent until proven guilty, but you are giving the impression of being contrary for the its own sake

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
And really, he sounds like an entrepreneur that was defending his home and the benefits of his hard work from someone that was seeking to rob him.

You are stretching the word "entrepreneur" beyond any reasonable definition.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Some fun facts for you:
the reason 2 out of 3 people die in domestic abuse cases is because there are guns in the house.
this year in america more people will die from gun violence than from all car fatalities.

Your first CDC source is over a decade old.
Firearms barely beats motor vehicle deaths because suicide with firearm is included, which distorts the statistics
And the VPC is an activist organization, whose article you linked to is hopelessly out of date. Their most recent source is from 2001.

Relapse wrote:
About 60% or more of gun deaths are suicides, though. If you are talking strictly homicides, then it's pretty much the same numbers the same as drunk drivers killing people.
The fact remains, as I say, that the media promotes the use of alcohol. Pretty ironic, considering 88,000 people a year die from alcohol related causes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
is any source in america not biased? but anyways, glad to see you guys won't even look at the cdc numbers.

You mean like this one that cites 21,000 firearm deaths as suicide?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

And 35% are homicides.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/
A little over 1/3 of Americans own guns.
There are about 300 million guns in circulation; that means an average of about 3 guns for every gun owner.
100 million gun owners.
About 69% of all murders are committed with a firearm (FBI)
8,855 murders committed with a firearm. (FBI)
Chance to be murdered by a gun: 2.95%

Alcohol:
About 87% of Americans 18 and over drink, have drunk. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/
I'll estimate that about 60% of the population is 18 and over (66% is 14 and over so I'll fudge). So, about 209,880,000 people drink
88,000 people die each year from alcohol related deaths.
Chance to die from alcohol: 4.19%

Yep, alcohol is more dangerous than firearms.

sirlynchmob wrote:
the fact remains, there are many organizations working to reduce alcohol related deaths, whereas the NRA is actively advocating more guns and the great lie that more guns makes you safer.

There are groups looking to infringe on the right to bear arms;
- Mayors Against Illegal Guns
- Moms Demand Action
- Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
- Brady Campaign


But I'm sure that you can show that more guns make us less safe; and that increasing levels of gun ownership with decreasing accidental deaths, suicides, etc. is not the reality

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So the gun wasn't really in his possession?

Sure, allegedly.

I understand that a person is innocent until proven guilty, but you are giving the impression of being contrary for the its own sake.

No, it's called actually abiding by rule of law. Something you claim to understand but clearly don't give a gak about because reasons.

You are stretching the word "entrepreneur" beyond any reasonable definition.

Do you know any drug dealers? I do (or did, he doesn't deal drugs any more), and it's pretty hard work.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So the gun wasn't really in his possession?

Sure, allegedly.

I understand that a person is innocent until proven guilty, but you are giving the impression of being contrary for the its own sake.

No, it's called actually abiding by rule of law. Something you claim to understand but clearly don't give a gak about because reasons.

You are stretching the word "entrepreneur" beyond any reasonable definition.

Do you know any drug dealers? I do (or did, he doesn't deal drugs any more), and it's pretty hard work.

You know drug dealers? What have you done about it?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Some fun facts for you:
the reason 2 out of 3 people die in domestic abuse cases is because there are guns in the house.
this year in america more people will die from gun violence than from all car fatalities.

Your first CDC source is over a decade old.
Firearms barely beats motor vehicle deaths because suicide with firearm is included, which distorts the statistics
And the VPC is an activist organization, whose article you linked to is hopelessly out of date. Their most recent source is from 2001.

I'm comparing vehicles to guns here, and this year there is more gun deaths than vehicle deaths. Due to traffic laws and regulations vehicle related deaths have been dropping steadily, like my first link showed. the projected gun deaths didn't scale up but plateaued hence it took another 10 years til guns passed cars. Why have vehicle deaths been on the decline since the 1950's yet have a drastic rise in ownership? good laws & regulations.

here's 2014:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 33,804

All firearm deaths
Number of deaths: 33,636


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
the fact remains, there are many organizations working to reduce alcohol related deaths, whereas the NRA is actively advocating more guns and the great lie that more guns makes you safer.

There are groups looking to infringe on the right to bear arms;
- Mayors Against Illegal Guns
- Moms Demand Action
- Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
- Brady Campaign


But I'm sure that you can show that more guns make us less safe; and that increasing levels of gun ownership with decreasing accidental deaths, suicides, etc. is not the reality

http://time.com/3997881/cops-deaths-states-gun-ownership/
"Cops are more likely to be murdered on the job in states with higher rates of gun ownership, according to a new study."

Relapse wrote:
You know drug dealers?

Yes.

What have you done about it?

Done about what?

Relapse wrote:
If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.
How about this statistic of emergency room visits by minors?
Close to 190, 000 yearly:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm

Deaths and other nastiness from alcohol:

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

That's not entirely true. Some suicides are spur of the moment decisions which can be prevented by quite simple obstacles in the way (Fences on bridges, for example, or those barriers with doors on underground trainlines which means you can't get to the tracks). For example someone who wants to swallow a load of pills may not go ahead with it if it involves going to the shop to buy more pills than they currently have, or they'll try but end up with a non-fatal dose. Then if they don't succeed and end up in hospital instead they are now on the radar and will get counselling and therapy to help them overcome the problems which drove them to attempt suicide in the first place.

Guns remove many of those obstacles and are also almost a 100% guarantee of success. So if you removed guns, the total amount of suicide attempts may stay the same but the number of successful suicides will decrease.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Relapse wrote:
You know drug dealers?

Yes.

What have you done about it?

Done about what?

The drug dealers.

Never mind, though. I see that it would be better for me to start a different thread since this conversation has taken this thread right off the rails.

 agnosto wrote:

And 35% are homicides.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/04/a-minority-of-americans-own-guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/
A little over 1/3 of Americans own guns.
There are about 300 million guns in circulation; that means an average of about 3 guns for every gun owner.
100 million gun owners.
About 69% of all murders are committed with a firearm (FBI)
8,855 murders committed with a firearm. (FBI)
Chance to be murdered by a gun: 2.95%

Alcohol:
About 87% of Americans 18 and over drink, have drunk. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/
I'll estimate that about 60% of the population is 18 and over (66% is 14 and over so I'll fudge). So, about 209,880,000 people drink
88,000 people die each year from alcohol related deaths.
Chance to die from alcohol: 4.19%

Yep, alcohol is more dangerous than firearms.

Why do you include all alcohol related deaths but only gun homicides? Somebody getting drunk and crashing their car into a tree or dying of liver failure caused by alcohol counts but somebody shooting themselves in the head doesn't? Not a very good comparison at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Your first CDC source is over a decade old.
Firearms barely beats motor vehicle deaths because suicide with firearm is included, which distorts the statistics
And the VPC is an activist organization, whose article you linked to is hopelessly out of date. Their most recent source is from 2001.

The motor vehicle statistics will also include deaths where the driver was the only casualty.

So suicide does not distort the statistics as both sets of data include it.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

But I'm sure that you can show that more guns make us less safe; and that increasing levels of gun ownership...

Gun ownership has decreased, by a significant margin, over the past decades.

47% of households reported owning a gun in 1973
40% of households reported owning a gun in 1996
31% of households reported owning a gun in 2014

48.7% of adults lived in a household with a gun in 1973
43.3% of adults lived in a household with a gun in 1996
32.4% of adults lived in a household with a gun in 2014

28.1% of adults personally owned a gun in 1980
27.1% of adults personally owned a gun in 1996
22.4% of adults personally owned a gun in 2014


(Edit: Based on rates and the US population 5 million fewer people own a firearm in 2014 than in 1996)

Source:

http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

with decreasing accidental deaths, suicides,

18,166 suicides by firearm in 1996 (rate of 6.8/100,000)
21,175 suicides by firearm in 2013 (rate of 6.7/100,000)

Source: CDC Final Death Reports for 1996 and 2013
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr47/nvs47_09.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf

etc. is not the reality

As you see, it is not.

Edit: physically, fewer people are owning firearms, while physically more people commit suicide with them.

Relapse wrote:If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.

This is definitely not true.

I mean, it's true in the sense that you could theoretically kill yourself by drowning yourself in a bowl of water, or so in; but practically, suicide is an act of impulse and easy access to firearms means more suicides. I'm not saying that we should ban guns because it would reduce suicides but I think it's quite clear that magically removing all guns would definitely reduce suicides fairly dramatically.

ScootyPuffJunior wrote: and it's pretty hard work.

I couldn't agree more. My upstairs neighbor used to sell drugs when I still lived in NYC, and I think it's high time that the government stopped tying these industrious small businessmen up in endless red tape and regulations.

The ban on felons owning firearms doesn't seem any different than the ban on felons voting, or so on: they have served their time unless that's a agreed upon precondition of release.

 Ouze wrote:

ScootyPuffJunior wrote: and it's pretty hard work.

I couldn't agree more. My upstairs neighbor used to sell drugs when I still lived in NYC, and I think it's high time that the government stopped tying these industrious small businessmen up in endless red tape and regulations.

Yep, those big Walmart style cartels move in and drive the mom and pop drug sellers out of business.

 Ouze wrote:

Relapse wrote:If someone is going to kill themselves, for the most part, they are going to do it by whatever means.

This is definitely not true.

I mean, it's true in the sense that you could theoretically kill yourself by drowning yourself in a bowl of water, or so in; but practically, suicide is an act of impulse and easy access to firearms means more suicides. I'm not saying that we should ban guns because it would reduce suicides but I think it's quite clear that magically removing all guns would definitely reduce suicides fairly dramatically.

ScootyPuffJunior wrote: and it's pretty hard work.

I couldn't agree more. My upstairs neighbor used to sell drugs when I still lived in NYC, and I think it's high time that the government stopped tying these industrious small businessmen up in endless red tape and regulations.

Did you know that there are only half as many deaths per year from illegal drugs than there are from alcohol?

I'm choosing to abide by the advice given earlier by the Moderators. Have a good night all.