Switch Theme:

What ONE change would you make to make walker types more in line with monstrous creatures?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






We all know MC are better by a mile, but what could we change about walkers/dreadnauts to make them more in line? Personally I would make it so they couldn't be destroyed by a glancing hit, and make it so you can change the order of when you take hits. Devastator group shoots you with 3 lascannons and gets 1 pen and 3 glances? Take the pen first, and assuming you aren't destroyed, the other 3 glances take you down to your last HP, but otherwise do nothing else. Would at least bridge the gap a bit more.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




get rid of hps
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Give vehicles a special type of save, called a vehicle plating save.

It would be dependent on facing

The formula to determine the save would be something like this:

16-x, where x is the facing's AV

In addition, apply this modifiers where applicable. 2+ is the best possible save.
If the vehicle's save exceed's 2+, then it gains a resiliant save. This works like FNP, in that it can be taken after a failed plating save, but it only works on a 5+.
This save can only be negated by weapons with the melta rule and haywire.

+ 1 is the vehicle is a tank (due to heavier construction / additional armor)
- 1 if the vehicle is a skimmer (NOT a heavy skimmer.it is assumed they can handle the weight of armor plating. It is assumed standard skimmers have to be a bit light to work)
-1 if the vehicle is a flyer (same reasoning as the skimmers)
+1 if the vehicle is a walker (due to heavier construction / additional armor)

Modifiers may cancel each other out, of course.

Haywire weapons always ignore vehicle plating saves, as they do not work by piercing armor.

If the vehicle's AV value has been modified due to a special rule, then use the modified value.

This save cannot be ignored by AP, except on a penetrating hit. Glancing hits can always be saved against.

Hopefully, S6-S7 spam would no longer be as effective with this rule.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/12/29 11:04:33


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I wouldn't get rid of hull points. I would simply double the number of hull points on most vehicles.

So a weak little Sentinal or Land Speeder would have 4 hull points. Rhinos and the like with have 6ish. Most tanks would have 8-10, or even 12.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That works as well. The problem with vehicles right now is that they can be killed in one hit, and if not most only have 3 wounds for lack of a better term, and can slowly loss the ability to move, shoot well, and lose weapons. Meanwhile MC are immune to most forms of instant death and are as effective at one wound as they are at full and they get saves/FNP. so Either remove HPs all together or add in vehicle saves and more HPs.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Make them MCs.
   
Made in gb
Hellacious Havoc





Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Mabye give tanks and walkers minus one to the pen roll. So a lucky lascannon shot does not remove a gorkanaut top of turn one.

Or make it so. O additional hp damage is suffered after the first immobalize or weapon destroyed with no remaining weapons. Nerfs grav some at the aame time, but its too good as is anyway.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






6 hp rhino for 35 pts? You're kidding me. They're allready great.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 koooaei wrote:
6 hp rhino for 35 pts? You're kidding me. They're allready great.


Great is not a term I'd attach to the Rhino. This is a game with scatterbikes, after all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 17:57:54


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.
Its a pretty lazy solution, and does not fix the real problem.

Walkers are bad because vehicles are bad. Its that simple. Make vehicles better and walkers will be improved as well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:09:23


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.


I'm willing to take my chances. 40K is already silly. What's the harm of some more silly?
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Martel732 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.


I'm willing to take my chances. 40K is already silly. What's the harm of some more silly?


The same could be said of trying to put out a fire with more fire
Coincidentally, that's probably GW's thought process when it comes to writing rules as well.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Eventually, you will deplete all the oxygen or fuel, so that's not that crazy either.

Also, poison's stock has gone down a lot with the introduction of GMCs. I've been using Sternguard less because that was their primary feature. WKs and Stormsurges are functionally immune to poison, as are DKs and Riptidesm, despite their status as MCs. So why bother with poison?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:14:03


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.
Its a pretty lazy solution, and does not fix the real problem.

Walkers are bad because vehicles are bad. Its that simple. Make vehicles better and walkers will be improved as well.


Tau Suits are MCs and therefore can be poisoned but not haywired. How is that less silly than making existing walkers MCs?
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Dark Eldar splinter weapons say hi.
Its been a while, but I'm pretty sure their weapons are still poisonous.

Making walkers MCs is just not a sufficient solution, and fails to address the real problem; that vehicles are stupidly weak against mid strength weapon spam, due to their lack of a save.

If you think about it, a vehicle is basically an armorless MC with a toughness ranging from 6-10 and up to 4HP

Most MCs are T7, with 2+ or 3+ saves and more than 4HP.

With that in mind, its no surprise that vehicles fall easily to mass S6-S7 weapons.
Before you had to pen a vehicle to kill it, or roll a lucky number. Now just scratch it enough times and it will fall apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.
Its a pretty lazy solution, and does not fix the real problem.

Walkers are bad because vehicles are bad. Its that simple. Make vehicles better and walkers will be improved as well.


Tau Suits are MCs and therefore can be poisoned but not haywired. How is that less silly than making existing walkers MCs?


A tau suit is an oversized crisis suit. You can't haywire a crisis suit.
A dreadnaught is not an oversized space marine.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:27:08


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dark Eldar splinter weapons say hi.
Its been a while, but I'm pretty sure their weapons are still poisonous.

Making walkers MCs is just not a sufficient solution, and fails to address the real problem; that vehicles are stupidly weak against mid strength weapon spam, due to their lack of a save.

If you think about it, a vehicle is basically an armorless MC with a toughness ranging from 6-10 and up to 4HP

Most MCs are T7, with 2+ or 3+ saves and more than 4HP.

With that in mind, its no surprise that vehicles fall easily to mass S6-S7 weapons.
Before you had to pen a vehicle to kill it, or roll a lucky number. Now just scratch it enough times and it will fall apart.


I'll take my armor saves vs the DE and live with it. It's still better than the current walker rules.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Martel732 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dark Eldar splinter weapons say hi.
Its been a while, but I'm pretty sure their weapons are still poisonous.

Making walkers MCs is just not a sufficient solution, and fails to address the real problem; that vehicles are stupidly weak against mid strength weapon spam, due to their lack of a save.

If you think about it, a vehicle is basically an armorless MC with a toughness ranging from 6-10 and up to 4HP

Most MCs are T7, with 2+ or 3+ saves and more than 4HP.

With that in mind, its no surprise that vehicles fall easily to mass S6-S7 weapons.
Before you had to pen a vehicle to kill it, or roll a lucky number. Now just scratch it enough times and it will fall apart.


I'll take my armor saves vs the DE and live with it. It's still better than the current walker rules.


Current walker rules, or current vehicle rules? Walkers follow the same damage rules as vehicles.

I guess one could scrap vehicle rules entirely, and give them a T value.
DZC vehicles and infantry all share the same kind of stat line.
Haywire and vehicle specific interactions would need a tweak though.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:31:33


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

I think the game could be vastly improved if all vehicles instead just had Wounds and Toughness values, and armour saves. This presuming they would be adjusted well, which is a stretch because well... GW and rules.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dark Eldar splinter weapons say hi.
Its been a while, but I'm pretty sure their weapons are still poisonous.

Making walkers MCs is just not a sufficient solution, and fails to address the real problem; that vehicles are stupidly weak against mid strength weapon spam, due to their lack of a save.

If you think about it, a vehicle is basically an armorless MC with a toughness ranging from 6-10 and up to 4HP

Most MCs are T7, with 2+ or 3+ saves and more than 4HP.

With that in mind, its no surprise that vehicles fall easily to mass S6-S7 weapons.
Before you had to pen a vehicle to kill it, or roll a lucky number. Now just scratch it enough times and it will fall apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.
Its a pretty lazy solution, and does not fix the real problem.

Walkers are bad because vehicles are bad. Its that simple. Make vehicles better and walkers will be improved as well.


Tau Suits are MCs and therefore can be poisoned but not haywired. How is that less silly than making existing walkers MCs?


A tau suit is an oversized crisis suit. You can't haywire a crisis suit.
A dreadnaught is not an oversized space marine.


A crisis suit is a machine, piloted by a man, more than twice a man's height. That is not so unlike a Sentinel, yet you can haywire but not poison a sentinel.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dark Eldar splinter weapons say hi.
Its been a while, but I'm pretty sure their weapons are still poisonous.

Making walkers MCs is just not a sufficient solution, and fails to address the real problem; that vehicles are stupidly weak against mid strength weapon spam, due to their lack of a save.

If you think about it, a vehicle is basically an armorless MC with a toughness ranging from 6-10 and up to 4HP

Most MCs are T7, with 2+ or 3+ saves and more than 4HP.

With that in mind, its no surprise that vehicles fall easily to mass S6-S7 weapons.
Before you had to pen a vehicle to kill it, or roll a lucky number. Now just scratch it enough times and it will fall apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.
Its a pretty lazy solution, and does not fix the real problem.

Walkers are bad because vehicles are bad. Its that simple. Make vehicles better and walkers will be improved as well.


Tau Suits are MCs and therefore can be poisoned but not haywired. How is that less silly than making existing walkers MCs?


A tau suit is an oversized crisis suit. You can't haywire a crisis suit.
A dreadnaught is not an oversized space marine.


A crisis suit is a machine, piloted by a man, more than twice a man's height. That is not so unlike a Sentinel, yet you can haywire but not poison a sentinel.


Power armor is also a machine, a wearable robot, with an operator inside, and it is also bigger than a human. You cannot haywire power armor.
I will admit that GW's logic in determining what is a vehicle and what is not is a bit fuzzy, as logically one should be able to haywire power armor, but I do understand the logic on making the larger crisis suit models and dreadknights MCs, as they are effectively oversized versions of their infantry counterparts.
Unless you mean to tell me that a sentinel is a big guardsman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:45:48


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Vehicles and walkers are still utter garbage compared to MCs, though.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

I cannot dispute that, yes.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dark Eldar splinter weapons say hi.
Its been a while, but I'm pretty sure their weapons are still poisonous.

Making walkers MCs is just not a sufficient solution, and fails to address the real problem; that vehicles are stupidly weak against mid strength weapon spam, due to their lack of a save.

If you think about it, a vehicle is basically an armorless MC with a toughness ranging from 6-10 and up to 4HP

Most MCs are T7, with 2+ or 3+ saves and more than 4HP.

With that in mind, its no surprise that vehicles fall easily to mass S6-S7 weapons.
Before you had to pen a vehicle to kill it, or roll a lucky number. Now just scratch it enough times and it will fall apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SpookyRuben wrote:
Martel you hit the nail on the head!

Walkers should become MC's. Simple, no need to come up with a whole new list of rules.


Except walkers are vehicles, and as such they should be subject to rules that affect vehicles.
If walkers are MC, then that means you can poison them. That's pretty silly.
Its a pretty lazy solution, and does not fix the real problem.

Walkers are bad because vehicles are bad. Its that simple. Make vehicles better and walkers will be improved as well.


Tau Suits are MCs and therefore can be poisoned but not haywired. How is that less silly than making existing walkers MCs?


A tau suit is an oversized crisis suit. You can't haywire a crisis suit.
A dreadnaught is not an oversized space marine.


A crisis suit is a machine, piloted by a man, more than twice a man's height. That is not so unlike a Sentinel, yet you can haywire but not poison a sentinel.


Power armor is also a machine, a wearable robot, with an operator inside, and it is also bigger than a human. You cannot haywire power armor.
I will admit that GW's logic that determining what is a vehicle and what is not is a bit fuzzy, as logically one should be able to haywire power armor, but I do understand the logic on making the larger crisis suit models and dreadknights MCs, as they are effectively oversized versions of their infantry counterparts.
Unless you mean to tell me that a sentinel is a big guardsman.


I just fail to see the difference between a Wraithknight, Warhound, and Tau'nar, for example.

A Warhound is a neural-linked machine and operates at the speed of human consciousness. It has a shield generator (represented by void shields) and multiple weapon systems.
A Tau'nar is a neural-linked machine and operates at the speed of Tau consciousness. It has a shield generator (represented this time by Invuln save) and multiple weapon systems.
A Wraithknight is a consciousness-uploaded machine that operates at the speed of Eldar consciousness. It can have a shield generator (represented this time by an Invuln save) and multiple weapon systems.

We could even do the same thing with the Riptide and the Skitarii Onager:

A Riptide is a neural-linked machine that walks and has multiple weapon systems.
An Onager is a neural-linked machine that walks and can have multiple weapon systems.

Do you understand where I am going with this?

Either use vehicles for everything that is a piloted machine (including 'piloted machines' such as power armour) or use Toughness and Save rules for everything, period.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Therefore, I'd be willing to accept all the silliness that comes with such a change. GW's definitions of this or that mean nothing to me, only mechanics. From my view, a dreadnought is arbitrarily garbage compared to a Carnifex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 18:49:04


 
   
Made in gb
Hellacious Havoc





Well the OP asked what 'One' change would make walkers more in line with MC's. Getting rid of the Walker unit type and just making them all MC's is one change that sorts things out pretty quick LOL.

In my opinion (and probably many other's too) the whole MC rules should only apply to 'living' creatures (e.g. Greater Deamons, Deamon Princes, Tyranid's, etc.).

Somehow GW got mixed up and made all kinds of constructs into MC's; for example the Riptide is a big robot, but doesn't use walker rules WTF??

Everybody knows that the discrepancy between rules for Walkers and MC's is a bit off. With MC's having an edge.

I can only hope that in the next edition they roll Walkers and MC's into one unit category.



   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Dreadknights started it. Then riptides and other sillyness. GW sat down and asked themselves " why dont dreadnaughts sell outside starter boxes?" they know tbe walker rules are garbage, so they made riptides and dreads mc's. Imagune if riptides were armor 12 3 hp with a 5+ invun that you could get to 3+. You think you would see nearly as much? No, but they are slowly learning. The last walker they put out, the dunecrawler is good. Great with free upgrades including the overpriced claw. Ill take those anyday over a dread.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Orock wrote:
Dreadknights started it. Then riptides and other sillyness. GW sat down and asked themselves " why dont dreadnaughts sell outside starter boxes?" they know tbe walker rules are garbage, so they made riptides and dreads mc's. Imagune if riptides were armor 12 3 hp with a 5+ invun that you could get to 3+. You think you would see nearly as much? No, but they are slowly learning. The last walker they put out, the dunecrawler is good. Great with free upgrades including the overpriced claw. Ill take those anyday over a dread.


I think it started with the crisis suit. The crisis "suit", despite its name, is hardly a suit. It's a piloted robot. It should've been an armour 8 or 9 walker fieldable in squadrons with Power of the Machine Spirit.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

I would replace "Unit Type: Walker" with "Unit Type: Monstrous Creature".

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

I'm surprised, given the common idea of making walkers into Monstrous Creatures, nobody has mentioned the 30K Mechanicum Castellax as an example. To me, the Castellax is a perfect example of what a walker should be. It's a MC with an armor save and an invulnerable save, along with a rule that makes it harder for poison to wound it and also gives a chance for haywire to wound it.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: