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Just some ideas to fix CSM. Leave your ideas and tell me whether mine work.
Give whole army Stubborn.
Give everything an extra attack.
Make the Marks better.
Give bonuses for using a mono god list, for example an all Khorne list gets Furious Charge, an all Tzeentch list makes everything a Psyker/Brotherhood Psykers/+1 Mastery Level, an all Nurgle list makes everything FNP and IWND, an all Slaanesh list gives everything Outflank and Acute Senses.
Make all units cheaper.

Pretty sure there was another thread about this, but here's my two cents.

Unfortunately, there is SOOO much that needs to be reworked with CSM that just giving blanket answers like an extra attack or just making everything cheaper wouldn't fix them. Almost all the units need a full redesign to become viable and provide synergy in the army. I'm not nearly skilled or knowledgeable enough to take on that sort of monster, but if i changed just 4, I guess I can come up with some basic suggestions for the worst offenders.

1. I agree that base CSM need some sort of fearless like mechanic. Every other marine has ATSKNF, make CSM Stubborn. It fits them, and its fluffy.

2. Warp Talons need assault grenades and need the ability to assault on the turn they arrive. Right now, all their fluff points towards a unit and literally cuts itself out the warp to surprise attack and shred their target. Yet their play style is arrive, maybe blind a unit for a turn, then get shot off the board. I propose changing their arrival rule mechanic of that currently blinds any enemy unit within 6 inches (or 8 inches, I don't quite remember and don't have my codex with me at work.) to instead make any unit within that designated range vulnerable to assault on arrival from the warp talons. Call is "Surprise Attack" or something, Everything about this unit is an assault unit that can't assault, and that needs to be remedied.

3. Give possessed the "Beast" Unit type in addition to their unit types. These guys are mutated beyond recognition, they probably charge into battle on all four, fueled with nothing but demonic strength and anger. Thats enough to justify them being as fast as spawn to me.

4. Defiler needs to lose the battle cannon and get something similar that doesn't have the ordinance special rule, thus making ALL his shooting weapons useful. It probably wouldn't hurt to bring his point cost down to around 150-160ish. Right now it costs too much and hinders itself by being a "jack of all trades, master of none" unit. At 150 pts, I can justify a unit like that, at around 200 pts, I cannot. It's also basically a centerpiece unit for the army, it's something CSM is really known for and its so garbage no one will ever take one, outside of very fluffy and forgiving lists.

Honorable Mentions:
Mutilators: I can't think of anything that makes this unit viable. You can give them an assault from DS mechanic, but I feel like that would make them too powerful for their points cost.

This is how you fix CSM...

Buy the Vanilla Loyalist Space Marine codex. Use a matker and write Chaos in front of the title. You now have CSM as good as loyalist n can use gladius and sky hammer.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
Pretty sure there was another thread about this, but here's my two cents.

there is one thread like this 12 times a week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:


2. Warp Talons need assault grenades and need the ability to assault on the turn they arrive. Right now, all their fluff points towards a unit and literally cuts itself out the warp to surprise attack and shred their target. Yet their play style is arrive, maybe blind a unit for a turn, then get shot off the board. I propose changing their arrival rule mechanic of that currently blinds any enemy unit within 6 inches (or 8 inches, I don't quite remember and don't have my codex with me at work.) to instead make any unit within that designated range vulnerable to assault on arrival from the warp talons. Call is "Surprise Attack" or something, Everything about this unit is an assault unit that can't assault, and that needs to be remedied.

Yeah since there is a few units that can do this with formations, and in the last path to Glory, one Lesser glory give to a unit the ability to DS once per battle, and if they don't scatter they can assault in the same turn.

3. Give possessed the "Beast" Unit type in addition to their unit types. These guys are mutated beyond recognition, they probably charge into battle on all four, fueled with nothing but demonic strength and anger. Thats enough to justify them being as fast as spawn to me.

Also give them either a bolt pistol or something similar but assault 2, since they can shoot laser from their eyes, and spit fire.

4. Defiler needs to lose the battle cannon and get something similar that doesn't have the ordinance special rule, thus making ALL his shooting weapons useful. It probably wouldn't hurt to bring his point cost down to around 150-160ish. Right now it costs too much and hinders itself by being a "jack of all trades, master of none" unit. At 150 pts, I can justify a unit like that, at around 200 pts, I cannot. It's also basically a centerpiece unit for the army, it's something CSM is really known for and its so garbage no one will ever take one, outside of very fluffy and forgiving lists.

160pts have a Heavy Deamon Cannon, STr9 Ap3 Large blast heavy 2, that can be replaced for +15pts with a Battle canon that has the barrage rule. OR simply give it a rule that allows it to shoot all its weapons normally even while shooting the battlecanon, it as six legs, it is more stable then a regular artillery piece no?

Honorable Mentions:
Mutilators: I can't think of anything that makes this unit viable. You can give them an assault from DS mechanic, but I feel like that would make them too powerful for their points cost.

They need a complet rework, i'd make them something akin to Spawns; Beasts with T5 3W , 4++ save 3+D3 attacks, Hit & Run, can morph their Weapons, Have to charge ennemy units in sight if they are in range, Outflank and acute senses.

Muties problem is that they are just CC Oblits, oblits at base are not good CC models, they have the durability of a Termie, but thats it, where oblits gets by their versatile firepower and can make their points back once their on the table, Mutie have to footslog, are undernumbered and at core are not that good in CC for a CC heavy specialist.

To make them work, we have to completly disociate them from the Oblits, only thing they have in common is the Morphing.

I agree with Mutilators. How can a two attack model be a combat boss? Now give them D6 attacks and let those power swords fly!

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Muties problem is that they are just CC Oblits, oblits at base are not good CC models, they have the durability of a Termie, but thats it, where oblits gets by their versatile firepower and can make their points back once their on the table, Mutie have to footslog, are undernumbered and at core are not that good in CC for a CC heavy specialist.

I think Mutilators could be viable if they had a SS+TH combo available and their unit size was increased. That makes them as scary as assault terminators with a more versatile loadout.. You still run into the same problems of delivery into assault, but they become less garbage than they currently are.

The biggest issue I have with them is the same that effects Obliterators. Having to change weapons every turn. Meaning one turn they could have that cool 2+/3++(2++ with MoT), but next turn, be 2+/5++(4++ with MoT) again. I know they made the change because oblits being able to fire the same weapon multiple times seemed unbalanced at the time. Yet in today's age of OP codexes and formations, I don't really see the "balance" in this decision anymore.

how does changing weapons affect your invul save?

I was referring to if mutilators could take SS + TH. The SS provides a 3++. Right now, they are still default 5++

Thats also a problem inherent to Chaos termies, best save they have is 4++ if they have MoT, and they are over costed as is for what they do.

Individual units in Chaos aren't *that* bad. Sure, there are overcosted units like Thousand Sons, or pointless units like Warp Talons, but as a whole, most of the units aren't *that* off compared to their Loyalist brothers. Most of the complaints are "But they don't get ATSKNF and get swept in melee", but just *how* prevalent is melee in 40k anyway? Most Chaos problems are more the result of inability to effectively diffuse their threat level throughout their army.

Problem: For most intents and purposes, all Chaos long-range firepower is in the Heavy Support Slot. They don't get dedicated transports with significant firepower, their Elites aren't efficient at shooting, and they lose a ranged war due to lacking economy of force. Ranged fights against Chaos become "Protip: Shoot the Havocs/Oblits"
Proposed Patches: Allow Chaos Chosen the ability to take a 2nd Heavy Weapon. Make Ranged Chaos Terminator weapons a "One in 3 Terminators" option, allowing a full unit to have 3 Reaper Autocannons. Let the Helbrute *choose* its Crazed result by default (for those that *must* do formations, let the Murderpack count the effects of a Crazed Result again, so a Fire Frenzy Murderpack fires 3(!) times). Move Forge/Maulerfiends to Elites. Optionally, allow a Rhino to take a Reaper Autocannon for +30 points.

Problem: For most intents and purposes, all Chaos "fast" movement is in Fast Attack. They don't get Bike Troops, fast-moving Elites, etc. Not only this, but no units in their army Infiltrate without taking a Warlord Trait, none of their units have Scouts by default, none of their units have Hit & Run by default (*sigh* unless you take Cypher...).
Proposed Patches: Maulerfiends to Elites as mentioned, make the you-know-what mutated Beasts a "free" slot choice (*May take one unit for every 2 Troops taken*), give Raptors/Warp Talons Hit & Run by default (it wouldn't hurt to make Talons an Elite Choice either, and tweak them more), and give Possessed "Trailblazer"-like special rules (friendly Chaos Space Marines gain +3" movement, as long as they end their movement closer to a unit of Chaos Possessed).

Giving a Defiler Power of the Machine Spirit and FA/SA 13 (making it a heavier Soulgrinder) would make it worth the +50 points cost over an equivalent Soulgrinder, given it also gets IWND and Fleet.

Special rhino called the Holla Back.

It is essentially a razorback but with blast master and a tl sonic blaster or a tl blast master. Another idea is 3 tl sonic blasters.

I like sonic blasters but having to waste 180pts for 10 noise marines to buy 2 blast masters at 60pts is just not killy. A 45-65 pts HollaBack would be great!

Also if chosen as a dedicated transport for Noise marines. All sonic weaponry treats the transport as opened top for the purpose of shooting only. Sound should go thru the walls of the vehicle. only problem is that the noise marine with the blast master must snap shot if you move the hollaback if embarked.

In addition they should have a Predator variant with a tl blast master on the turret and 2 blast masters on the sides. 75+40+30+30=175 would be reasonable right for a vehicle that puts out 3 small blast s8 ap3 ignores cover shots.

You sold me at Holla Back.

Sadly enough, I saw a post on Faeit 212 about CSM "rumors". Everything that was mentioned on that post seemed quite legit and would be exactly what CSM need. However, I heard it was fake, which makes me sad.

First and foremost, their stuff needs point decreases. Then, add Legion rules, for goodness sake.

I wish Slaanesh Daemon Kin will spam blast masters, sonic blasters, doom sirens...

imagine a "Bale Predator" that had a double tap doom siren torrent. Or just acted like a fast attack pred with s6 ap3 flamers...

imagine bikes with sonic blasters n the marine with one. thats 3 sonic blasters relentless. An attack bike with a blast master.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Sadly enough, I saw a post on Faeit 212 about CSM "rumors". Everything that was mentioned on that post seemed quite legit and would be exactly what CSM need. However, I heard it was fake, which makes me sad.

First and foremost, their stuff needs point decreases. Then, add Legion rules, for goodness sake.

I saw that post too, unfortunately.

I agree with you about most of their units needing point decreases across the board. The thing that worries me the most about Legion Rules is there is SOOO much they can mess up by trying to include them and the new traitors that GW seems to be pushing so hard. As much as I hate to say it, the best option is to have separate books for the original traitor legions and new traitors. There is just too much to try compound everything that is considered CSM in just one book and doing so will end up making a book that lacks any character and general synergy. As much as it pains me, mostly cause I hate multiple codex's of the same army, it's the best way to make sure "everyone" is happy. By "everyone", of course I mean EVERYONE that plays the different legions and the 3 people at GW that think that CSM are only new traitors.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
By "everyone", of course I mean EVERYONE that plays the different legions and the 3 people at GW that think that CSM are only new traitors.

This line stood out to me as quite apt and amusing - a few codices ago, it seemed the only way to play CSM was to be one of the original traitor legions. Red Corsairs were tacked on as a kind of "hey look, corrupt modern-day foundings" idea with a couple of pretty pictures of loyalist marines with red crosses over their Imperial symbols. Now it seems that the pendulum has tipped too far the other way, and there's no benefit to being an original traitor legion! Gone are the veteran skills and the legion specific lists (I miss my Word Bearers and their nine troop choices of daemons...). I love the concept of the Legion specific lists, but it seems to be a massive undertaking to have a book for every faction, given that CSMs are far less popular than their SM nemesis. A shame we can't see a return to the "Appendix Army Lists" from the older books in which you could take a "Legion specific force" by just following some simple rules, with a simple payoff.

I had moderate success with my Death Guard army, led by a Great Unclean One - favored units of Plague Marines meant a free Aspiring Champion upgrade, and favoured units of Plague-bearers gave the +1 to the summoning role. Small advantages given that the army couldn't take anything that didn't have MoN, but it was a fun list to play with.

Written CSM fan-codex, it is 32 pages of rules, there are:
1) couple new special weapons and army-wide rules
2) character customisation via gifts (e.g. Chaos Lord can have 4W 2+ like Chapter master)
3) tweaking every unit to some degree, vehicle squadrons
4) specific detachment for fielding warbands with various traits

Link to the google drive

I'd like to see some feedback, thanks for reading.

Overhaul the entire Chaos model line.
The only reason we've stayed so stagnant and rooted firmly in 3rd edition, is simply because we have no model options for newer toys. Everyone else has had their armouries explode with new guns & weapons, because their model lines have been constantly updated.
WE. NEED. THE. SAME!

Plasma guns & Autocannons, no matter how cheap (hell even Free!), simply can't compete against the better toys other armies get. No one these days is afraid of an army who can only spam at best, 2 shot weapons outside of 'every-other-turn-assault-cannons' from limited numbers of Oblits.

Give us some uniquely Chaos guns, such as the return of our Kai guns, plus a higher RoF Reaper cannon (c'mon man - this was the prototype for the assault cannon, and all it gets is ****ing Twin-linked?! Pure garbage...)
Let us have man-portable Hades cannons. Bring back the Heavy + Hand flamers to better suit our much more assault-based nature (especially Khorne!) Boost Noise Marine weapons to something scarier than a confused Storm bolter.

Give us some god damned Combi-weapons for feth's sake!!!

Likewise, we need our own Rhino/Land Raider variants to keep up with the modern times. Again, being the true assault-based MEQ army, give us more Assault Transports than those Loyalist dogs.

In short, Chaos needs to be able to viably build our army from our bloody model line, instead of being forced to glue spikes to the Loyalist range to build anything beyond bolter or pistol/ccw grunts!

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
it as six legs, it is more stable then a regular artillery piece no?

No, artillery platform and threads are far more stable than legs.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Overhaul the entire Chaos model line.
The only reason we've stayed so stagnant and rooted firmly in 3rd edition, is simply because we have no model options for newer toys. Everyone else has had their armouries explode with new guns & weapons, because their model lines have been constantly updated.
WE. NEED. THE. SAME!

Honestly, that is probably the BIGGEST issue for us. Isn't our model line the oldest still (minus SoB)?

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Overhaul the entire Chaos model line.
The only reason we've stayed so stagnant and rooted firmly in 3rd edition, is simply because we have no model options for newer toys. Everyone else has had their armouries explode with new guns & weapons, because their model lines have been constantly updated.
WE. NEED. THE. SAME!

Honestly, that is probably the BIGGEST issue for us. Isn't our model line the oldest still (minus SoB)?

I've never really felt the Chaos models were that great, the trim has always been a sore point to paint, especially around the legs, as the detail tends to just trail off on either side of the model.

Given that they've made plastic heresy-era models for Calth, I'd love to see the CSM kit reimagined using the base Calth Space Marine model, with the usual Chaos changes - like the current CSM kit is a base SM with spikes and armour trim etc. Stuff the armour trim for a joke, make the kit more in line with the Fantasy Chaos Warriors kit, with furs and icons and spikes - return to the dark, gothic chaos look.

 Raichase wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Overhaul the entire Chaos model line.
The only reason we've stayed so stagnant and rooted firmly in 3rd edition, is simply because we have no model options for newer toys. Everyone else has had their armouries explode with new guns & weapons, because their model lines have been constantly updated.
WE. NEED. THE. SAME!

Honestly, that is probably the BIGGEST issue for us. Isn't our model line the oldest still (minus SoB)?

I've never really felt the Chaos models were that great, the trim has always been a sore point to paint, especially around the legs, as the detail tends to just trail off on either side of the model.

Given that they've made plastic heresy-era models for Calth, I'd love to see the CSM kit reimagined using the base Calth Space Marine model, with the usual Chaos changes - like the current CSM kit is a base SM with spikes and armour trim etc. Stuff the armour trim for a joke, make the kit more in line with the Fantasy Chaos Warriors kit, with furs and icons and spikes - return to the dark, gothic chaos look.

I would be alright with that. I run into that same issue with trim too and it more or less becomes the reason i just choose not to paint models for the day. I have to take a minute and think, "Do I really have the patience to make the trim look good today?" With my busy schedule, it often leans towards no. While I have no hat in the whole age of sigmar thing, I absolutely love chaos models and would be totally ok with a change of design direction if that's the route their following.

It's a shame, since we expected as much after Dark Vengeance. The more subtle Chaos Marines can always be converted from Loyalist plastics, so what we need is kits of the full Chaos Warrior style Traitors, the ones like Dark Vengeance's Lord and his Chosen. But we got no such release. All we got was a Finecast Aspiring Champion and spiky Assault Marines with squiggly lines on them.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's a shame, since we expected as much after Dark Vengeance. The more subtle Chaos Marines can always be converted from Loyalist plastics, so what we need is kits of the full Chaos Warrior style Traitors, the ones like Dark Vengeance's Lord and his Chosen. But we got no such release. All we got was a Finecast Aspiring Champion and spiky Assault Marines with squiggly lines on them.

I'm the opposite. I want cleaner casts, with bits you can add on to make them more chaotic. That way you can style them, the way you want them. Not too much, not too little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:


I've never really felt the Chaos models were that great, the trim has always been a sore point to paint, especially around the legs, as the detail tends to just trail off on either side of the model.

Use a fine tip paint pen, from your local arts shop, mine cost a pound.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's a shame, since we expected as much after Dark Vengeance. The more subtle Chaos Marines can always be converted from Loyalist plastics, so what we need is kits of the full Chaos Warrior style Traitors, the ones like Dark Vengeance's Lord and his Chosen. But we got no such release. All we got was a Finecast Aspiring Champion and spiky Assault Marines with squiggly lines on them.

I'm the opposite. I want cleaner casts, with bits you can add on to make them more chaotic. That way you can style them, the way you want them. Not too much, not too little.

Ditto here as well.
My biggest fear regarding a potential model line overhaul is that GW goes full out hyper-blinged-out-to-the-max on everything!

I think the AoS/Chaos Knight stylings are fine for the elite units such as Chosen/Termies and the Cult stuff, but leave the basic Chaos Marines and the likes of Havocs as evil looking Marines with more subtle chaotic aspects.
However, in place of furs, I'd rather see more chainmail like the current Aspiring Champion torso from the basic kit, and in place of the tabards/parchments/scrolls of the Loyalists, have it look more like torn cloth & impurity seals made of skin!

I just really don't think it would honestly look that good either if EVERY model in a possible new line-up goes to the level of detail as the DV Chosen... At that point, it just gets far too busy and everything begins to blend together into a giant blinged-out mess.
Besides, it's always a lot easier to add on extra details than it is to remove it!

I agree with that fear. I absolutely hate bling as a whole outside of maybe fancier looking weapons. My current Necron characters show that aspect out of me.

I have a somewhat more effective idea:

1: Burn all copies of the current CSM book

2: Hire a good writer who understands 40k and will playtest

3: ???

4: Better than anything this discussion can produce.

I've always felt that the problem is that GW cant decide what the book is representing. Are these the legionaries of the heresy who have fought with grit and bitterness for 10,000 years against the false emperor, with access to equipment that the imperium has lost access to, have a host of gifts from the gods including corrupted war machines and experience that make the average eldar to look like a child. Or is the book supposed to represent the rag tag remains of a recently turned chapter with few differences to loyalists and far less experiance and favor of the four Gods.

The problem is they are attempting to do both in the same book and you end up with marines minus one. I like the demonkin book, but I feel like it's still a misfire to focus on each god. Rather I would like to see codex renegade which has some chaos but focuses heavily on recently turned marines and cultists and make codex Veterans of the Long war, and make those marines much stronger than your standard MeQ, not unlike how loyalist grey knights are.

 Selym wrote:
I have a somewhat more effective idea:

1: Burn all copies of the current CSM book

2: Hire a good writer who understands 40k and will playtest

3: ???

4: Better than anything this discussion can produce.

Some of us have better codex's

 Selym wrote:
I have a somewhat more effective idea:

1: Burn all copies of the current CSM book

2: Hire a good writer who understands 40k and will playtest

3: ???

4: Better than anything this discussion can produce.

To be fair, we could have a worse writer than Phil Kelly. Rue the day when Matt Ward gets hold of the Dark Gods...and is turned into a Chaos spaaarrgh...thing that cannot be named.