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likely they rally about 1-3 miles away from the fight, feel stupid for running and trot back after the fight is over.

I kind of imagine it as them giving up on Sigmar, losing faith, breaking from his oppressive grasp.

Battleshock, much like any failed leadership/morale tests of old, does not necessarily mean a model "ran away".

In the case of Stormcast Eternals, remember the bit where Khul fought Hammerhand? Hammerhand vanished in a lightning bolt when he was slain.

That's how I envision them failing a battleshock test. Them being removed from the battlefield in a thunderclap and a dazing bolt of lightning to fight another day.

Couldn't it also be considered a tactical retreat rather than fleeing?

Sure, or it could be guys playing dead or any number of things.

Battleshock test doesn't mean they always flee if they fail; otherwise, you will have trouble to justify what happens with skeletons (yeah, they check battleshock tests like everyone else).

Losses can be coming from magic animating them vanishing or just being overwhelmed by the ferocity of the assault and taking wounds because of that. Details come from your narrative, effects in game are the same.

Sure, I wasn't always imagining the models flee in every case, for summoned troops (Demons, Lizardmen and Undead) I imagine it represents their instability, when the ferocity of the attack is enough to unbind the magicks which first summoned them - skeletons crumbling to dust - demons being flung back into the realm from whence they came - and all other manner of cool things.

I guess for the Stormcast the only thing that makes sense is the model making a rash and foolhardy dive into the thickest of fighting and getting himself killed.

Even a withdrawal doesn't make much sense to me, because if by the time they rally the whole army has been decimated, what do they do? Can they request to be beamed back up? Or do they wonder the realms lost...?

Well, they can just do a tactical retreat, indeed, but I'd rather see it as the unit being overwhelmed by the assault and gets a bit "distracted" by the sudden doubt in their mind or something - thus getting hurt even more.

If you like the idea of a withdrawal/tactical retreat, you can assume they go back to their army after the battle. Their companions can also look after them if they have time for this, regrouping before moving on. Of course, you can also say the cowards are just lost to the realm and will eventually get killed by the monsters or other chaos spiky thing wandering around.

I don't think they can ask for a "beam back". Fluff say they have to find a portal to go back to Azyr after they are deployed in "Sigmar's Lightning Mode". But then, they can just kill themselves to be reforged later.

Yeah, I'm not fond of their actual fluff. They're rather boring as heroes, to me. They feel more like "Order Demons" who can be sent in waves whenever Sigmar feels like it.

I think it's a tactical withdrawal as Stormcast Eternals aren't faithless craven cowards like chaos.... :-)

If they "tactically withdraw" and then return to the army, do you think there is some kind of penance or disciplinary action taken? Are there military courts and prisons?

I think it would be an interesting avenue to explore in the fluff :-)

 Bottle wrote:
If they "tactically withdraw" and then return to the army, do you think there is some kind of penance or disciplinary action taken? Are there military courts and prisons?

I think it would be an interesting avenue to explore in the fluff :-)

Well, since Stormcast Eternals are nothing else than a pure military group, I guess there could.

But then, they are made only from the heroes when they were "mere humans", and I seriously doubt they would just run away like goblins in front of (a)elves.

To me, they would make a tactical retreat only if the battle meant certain death and unnecessary sacrifice for the good of their mission. There's no point to give Sigmar more work by reforging the whole army stupidly killing itself on the enemy weapons.

"Justice" would certainly be rendered by Sigmar himself or someone who can judge in his name (certainly a Lord Celestant). I believe the most serious punishment would be death and assurance there will be no reforging. Or maybe reforging in a painful method, stripping you from everything that made you human (so that he's basically a soulless automaton).

I would rather interpret the battleshock test with the Stormcast failing it being overwhelmed by the enemy and taking additionnal damage. They're heroes - fleeing isn't really what they do.

Well I'm reading through the fluff in the quest for ghal maraz sourcebook and apparently stormcast eternals were so ground down by nurgles forces and the dirgehorn in the realm of life they were actually going awol and committing suicide so they could return to azyr and get away from the corruption in the realm of life. The ones going awol were the Astral Templars whilst the Hallowed Knights stood firm. I imagine Sigmar would punish them in some form though.

Sword Of Caliban wrote:
Well I'm reading through the fluff in the quest for ghal maraz sourcebook and apparently stormcast eternals were so ground down by nurgles forces and the dirgehorn in the realm of life they were actually going awol and committing suicide so they could return to azyr and get away from the corruption in the realm of life. The ones going awol were the Astral Templars whilst the Hallowed Knights stood firm. I imagine Sigmar would punish them in some form though.

Wow, that's cool to know and pretty shocking!

You know what would make a great story? A stormcast who runs from battle, and wanders the realms as a lone mercenary, whilst be hunted by his former comrades. A bit clique perhaps, but it would be cool to see the stormcast acting more human.

 Bottle wrote:

Sword Of Caliban wrote:
Well I'm reading through the fluff in the quest for ghal maraz sourcebook and apparently stormcast eternals were so ground down by nurgles forces and the dirgehorn in the realm of life they were actually going awol and committing suicide so they could return to azyr and get away from the corruption in the realm of life. The ones going awol were the Astral Templars whilst the Hallowed Knights stood firm. I imagine Sigmar would punish them in some form though.

Wow, that's cool to know and pretty shocking!

I was pretty surprised too!! But they're not infallible space marines are they (but I suppose space marines aren't THAT infallible either just look at Horus) just humans given a bit of divinity. They seem to be susceptible to chaos so maybe Tainted Stormcast Eternals may appear as a force in their own right. Even Skaven can bind a Stormcast Eternal if they want too!! Vermalanx gave a Grey Seer a power that could do just that against the Hallowed Knights in the Realm Of Life.... Bloody ratmen!!!!

 Bottle wrote:
So in the game a Stormcast might run away if too many of his battle brothers are slain in a round of combat (i.e. a failed battleshock test).

It's quite a difficult image to conjure up in my brain, however.

Think of your favourite real world military - British Army, US Marines, whatever floats your boat.

Those guys run away. Sometimes it is the smart thing to do...

 Sarouan wrote:
But then, they can just kill themselves to be reforged later.

Yeah, I'm not fond of their actual fluff.

I am not surprised if you have been led to believe they would just kill themselves to get back home. That just ain't the case. Dying has a very real cost for the Stormcasts.

MongooseMatt wrote:
..

 Sarouan wrote:
But then, they can just kill themselves to be reforged later.

Yeah, I'm not fond of their actual fluff.

I am not surprised if you have been led to believe they would just kill themselves to get back home. That just ain't the case. Dying has a very real cost for the Stormcasts.

Didn't Sword of Caliban just post about them killing themselves to get back home in Ghal Maraz? I mean, I guess it's because they were traumatized by Nurgle's forces, but they were still doing it.

 Spinner wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:
..

 Sarouan wrote:
But then, they can just kill themselves to be reforged later.

Yeah, I'm not fond of their actual fluff.

I am not surprised if you have been led to believe they would just kill themselves to get back home. That just ain't the case. Dying has a very real cost for the Stormcasts.

Didn't Sword of Caliban just post about them killing themselves to get back home in Ghal Maraz? I mean, I guess it's because they were traumatized by Nurgle's forces, but they were still doing it.

Yep, it's litterally written in the fluff. Stormcast Eternals killing themselves so that they can go back to Sigmar's vault. It has a cost of course - but they still saw it as a way to escape their torments and being able to fight back later.

And since Sigmar can apparently reforge a Stormcast quite fast if the need is here - that's how he managed to know where is Ghal-Maraz, after all, by reforging a Lord Celestant who saw it before being obliterated by magic -, you can't really say death is such a big deal for them.

I still like the main concept behind. But I can't really call them heroes when I see how easy it is for them to cheat death. Mortals don't have that kind of solution at all - and that's why sacrifice has such a high value. When you can get resurrected no matter what...it's not the same.

That's also why heroes in MMORPG...aren't really heroes, since there is no real permanence in their "losses". It's the same thing for Stormcast Eternals. They may have a loss in their mind/personnality/soul, but hey, who really cares? They are already dead for their former relatives/tribes and they are only meant for war. They can fight forever as long as they get reforged. The only "loss" would be about their relations between themselves, sure...but seriously, it's no such a big deal in a world where the only thing they can do is fighting.

Maybe if they release a novel about the real social life of Stormcast Eternals (and not just their battles/war campaigns), we would be able to care. But here? Just no.

Yep, they did kill themselves in ghal maraz expansion book but they were fighting nurole, the dirgehorn was the culprit it screwed up the Sylvaneth and the Stormcast.So what does happen when one dies? Do they lose part of themselves or something?

Sword Of Caliban wrote:
.So what does happen when one dies? Do they lose part of themselves or something?

It is indeed heavily hinted they're not exactly the same as before. But it doesn't hinder their memories, since the reforged Celestant clearly remembered what happened before he died.

So, they're still able as a war tool. What happens to their relations between themselves in, of course, another subject...but can you really feel for them? Honestly? I would be more concerned by a mortal, who would never be able to be resurrected. Even a Space Marine, whose death is permanent. But a Stormcast? I would care the same as it was an Undead or a Demon; death is annoying for them, but that's all it is - an episode, not the end. You need something quite out of the ordinary to make people really fear for them - like corruption of their soul or a powerful magic preventing their disembodiment. But you need something even higher than death itself, since it's not enough to put a real end to them.

That's why I feel they wouldn't run away like goblins. They know their death is not the end. They also know their bodies will automatically be sent back to Sigmar's side (since they can obviously see it when it happens, because the bodies of their dead companions are sent back into lightning). They are aware they must find a portal to Azyr if they want to go back without dying once they are sent "by Sigmar's storm" in other realms.

Thus, I don't see why they wouldn't see death as a way to quickly go back to Sigmar's if they don't have another choice. Better be dead than being tormented/corrupted/lost - since they can be reforged "as new".

Sure, it's painful and they don't enjoy it (at least, most of them), but that's still an option they can use. Most of the time, they will not sacrifice their life in vain. But like in MMORPG...sometimes, death is more useful so that they can go back faster to business.

They are basically a mash up of necrons and space marines and fortunately for me i like both.

But it doesn't hinder their memories

All the stuff I've read so far has their memories being the first things they lose, bit by bit. He may remember what just happened but increasingly no longer remembers who he really is.

The stormcast in that part of the book to me came over as being overcome by a magic induced death. Days of marching and exhaustion with the dirgehorn and the evil magic of the land was making them less than alert or leading them into traps. Those who were almost drowned/eaten by the lake monsters weren't looking to commit suicide but to clean and refresh themselves and were clearly in some sort of stupor. There was a mention that some might be starting to think that reforging was better than what they were enduring, but not that any had actually just committed suicide from what I remember.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

That's why I feel they wouldn't run away like goblins. They know their death is not the end.

Actually I think there is a much simpler explanation.

The 'selection process' for lack of better term pretty much ensured that only those who would fight to the death against chaos were allowed to join the stormcast. They all fought to the last in their previous life and called to sigmar as they did so in some way asking to be allowed to continue to do so.

That doesn't mean their resolve can't be overcome, e.g. by the dirgehorn. But no wussies ever got into the stormcast.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sword Of Caliban wrote:
They are basically a mash up of necrons and space marines and fortunately for me i like both.

Lol - yes in some ways I can see that. They start off like their original selves, but each time they die and reforge they appear to become just more of an automaton with no memories of who they are etc (so far as I've read anyway, which isn't all that far).

puree wrote:

But it doesn't hinder their memories

All the stuff I've read so far has their memories being the first things they lose, bit by bit. He may remember what just happened but increasingly no longer remembers who he really is.

Yeah, their sense of self. Such a big loss for the characterless grunts, indeed. I like that comparison with necrons, I must say.

but not that any had actually just committed suicide from what I remember.

Well, I read that part yesterday so I remember it clearly. The Stormcast knew what was in the lake because before some of them were caught by tentacle-things when they marched too close to it.

The ones who went into the lake after that were described as trying to "find peace" in the lake, because the sound of the Chaos artefact was too much for them to handle. Some were trying as well to clean their weapons, but were not "fighting back" too much when the beast came to eat them. It is clearly written the Stormcast knew that their death would be ending their torment here and that they would go back to Sigmar's vault.

So, yeah, to me, it's quite adequate to call it a suicide. They knew what would happen if they went there. All of it was made so that they wouldn't suffer anymore in these corrupted lands - and that they would stop hearing that cursed horn.

 Sarouan wrote:


Well, I read that part yesterday so I remember it clearly. The Stormcast knew what was in the lake because before some of them were caught by tentacle-things when they marched too close to it.

The ones who went into the lake after that were described as trying to "find peace" in the lake, because the sound of the Chaos artefact was too much for them to handle. Some were trying as well to clean their weapons, but were not "fighting back" too much when the beast came to eat them. It is clearly written the Stormcast knew that their death would be ending their torment here and that they would go back to Sigmar's vault.

So, yeah, to me, it's quite adequate to call it a suicide. They knew what would happen if they went there. All of it was made so that they wouldn't suffer anymore in these corrupted lands - and that they would stop hearing that cursed horn.

I just re-read that chapter. No, they did not know what was in the lake, and there is no mention of them still wanting to carry on even after they saw what was there. The only thing said about why several went to the lake is that they wanted to clean themselves and have a drink.

There is nothing said about why the others who have died in the last couple of days did die, but I was left with the impression that it was the same thing - not suicide but being lured into fatal situations via exhaustion and the dirge horn.

There is a note that some may be beginning to see death as preferable to the place but not that has actually happened yet.

Yeah, their sense of self. Such a big loss for the characterless grunts, indeed. I like that comparison with necrons, I must say.

So what is your issue with them. On the one hand you seem to dislike them due to some invulnerability you think they have, that there is nothing to empathise with. But the fact that they appear to be heading to being little more than some 'zombie' or entity with no sense of who they are is dismissed. Why is death somehow worse? What is it that makes a person? Becoming some mindless necron appears to be about a tragic an outcome as I can think of.

puree wrote:

I just re-read that chapter. No, they did not know what was in the lake, and there is no mention of them still wanting to carry on even after they saw what was there. The only thing said about why several went to the lake is that they wanted to clean themselves and have a drink.

There is nothing said about why the others who have died in the last couple of days did die, but I was left with the impression that it was the same thing - not suicide but being lured into fatal situations via exhaustion and the dirge horn.

There is a note that some may be beginning to see death as preferable to the place but not that has actually happened yet.

We clearly didn't read the same text. I read the fluff in the Quest for Ghal-Maraz campaign book. And I'm sorry, that's not what you're saying that is written in there. There are Stomcast that dove in the lake to "find peace" - that's not just "drinking and cleaning their armors". Some of them did, but not all of them. And those who did were not "fighting back until the end" when the monster came to them.

Also, since they were attacked sooner, when they had to go close to the lake, that's how they know what was inside. Unless they were very stupid or blind or their companions thinking of making a bad joke by not telling them, they would know what to expect if they came here. They did nonetheless.

So what is your issue with them. On the one hand you seem to dislike them due to some invulnerability you think they have, that there is nothing to empathise with. But the fact that they appear to be heading to being little more than some 'zombie' or entity with no sense of who they are is dismissed. Why is death somehow worse? What is it that makes a person? Becoming some mindless necron appears to be about a tragic an outcome as I can think of.

It's not really an issue, actually. I'm perfectly fine with it.

It's just I don't feel that much for them. They're trying to act as heroes, but...it's not the same with that reforging. Sacrifice doesn't have the same meaning if the guy losing his life comes back eventually. He may lose something in the process, sure - but that's not everything. And it may be not that important when you know the reason these guys were made Stormcast Eternals in the first place - war. No sense of self in war? Actually, it could be an advantage in the long term. For Sigmar's goals, of course.

I think there could be more interesting stories to tell if the novels were taking that reforging part as a scheme from Sigmar hidden to the Stormcast; what if it was a way for Sigmar to have "better control" on his armies? Maybe the Stormcast Eternals would then discover the reforging was actually intended for them to lose some self? Now that would be nice!


Anyway, as far as I have read, I don't see why they would be running away that much. First, because they were heroes when they were mortals and second, because they know death is not the end (and may actually be more useful in some cases).

And I'm really talking about "running away like afraid cowards". Even if they do, I expect them to be trying to make a tactical withdrawal like Space Marines Who Don't Know Fear.

The things being brought up here are what attract me to Stormcast. In many ways they are heroes, but their quasi-immortality and robotic existence makes them definitively not heroes. I get kind of a dark undertone to the whole race that I feel opens them up fluff-wise for fighting with other Order factions in the game. I can definitely see the Stormcast branching out into different and more defined subsets down the line.

We clearly didn't read the same text. I read the fluff in the Quest for Ghal-Maraz campaign book.

Aha, I'm reading the ghal maraz novel, not the campaign book. That may be why we are not reading the same text. Maybe the two books are not even describing the same event? If they are the one in the novel reads somewhat different to what you are saying is in the campaign book.

There were those of the Stormhosts’ number that stumbled off, half-torpid as they wandered through the night. Many sought the silence of Greenglow Lake, diving deep into the brackish waters only to be dragged low by the terrors that haunted its depths. Others strode into the lake’s rippling edges, scraping blades against the filth that caked them head to toe in the hope they could wash themselves clean of the forest’s taint. When the mouth-lined tendrils came for them, their struggles were short-lived; death was a high price, but not without its allure. By now, all had embraced the fact that their souls would return to blessed Azyr, and the hellish landscape that had worn them down would become a distant memory – truly it seemed that to return to the heavens in failure was better than to slog through Ghyran’s foulness for even a single hour more.

From QfGM, not sure they suicide or not.

You have to remember they can feel fear somewhat and when it comes to their memories oh boy. In the first realm gate novel they were assaulted by a mist that pretty much showed them their past memories.

Some suffered horrifically and some saw their loved ones and some ran into the mists chasing what ever vision they saw and right into the bloodbounds blades.

They also tire and make camps and such they are pretty much just can order version of chaos warriors. They are still pretty much human just an empowered human just like the warriors of chaos. Plus Vandus asked Ionus what the heck is going on with the whole death and turning into robot thing since vandus is pretty frightend of dying since he does not want to lose his memories. I can't remember the conversation word from word but Ionus explains that "Death" does not like the stormcast and since when they die they don't go to the underworld like they are meant to "Death" takes a part of their spirit or memories as "payment" until there is nothing left. Sigmar is trying to defy death but death will have its way."

Then vandus responds no one can defy Sigmar and Ionus simply says "Death can and to Death, Sigmar is a thief". Oh and its pretty clear nagash really hates the stormcast and sigmar since you know sigmar is messing with his turf and such and views him as a thief.